Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[northwichcat]

If that only goes as far as Chester I don't see why it shouldn't fit better into Northern. But either way that would be a good D319 route - 100mph on the wires down the WCML to Runcorn, then a slower diesel bit to Chester.

Idea is Liverpool to Chester initially and then extend the service to somewhere in North Wales.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely another thing driving how many Bi mode Class 319s are required will be the fuel range? If the number of miles they could do is limited to say 800 miles (half that of an XC 170) then the 319s will either need to visit a fuel point more often or the work shared amongst more Class 319s.

 

[Whistler40145]

One hopes that has been taken into consideration?

 

[Starmill]

Surely D-stock is already a known quantity to NR due to shared running to Richmond and Wimbledon?

So is a Tyne & Wear Metrocar. Doesn't mean you could use one on the ECML...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So is a Tyne & Wear Metrocar. Doesn't mean you could use one on the ECML...

Ah, but that's because you'd need a fair old run-up before the 1,500v DC runs out!

 

[childwallblues]

The business case was based on 4 car 150s being used so for 2 diagrams there should be 8 sets. Only way I can think of getting 8 is for the GWR 143s to go to ATW and then 150s operating around the Cardiff area could transfer North.

So that makes four units not eight!

 

[northwichcat]

^ I meant carriages not sets.

 

[adamedwards]

Assuming all goes well with the project I wonder if Chiltern might be able to use a Renatus spec unit from Marylebone to Aylesbury and eventually to Milton Keynes. Third rail on the met and 25kv at Milton Keynes. I suspect fuel capacity will kill this, but it would be fun to make use of all three power supplies. This would also then cascade out 165s to Bristol.

 

[D365]

Assuming all goes well with the project I wonder if Chiltern might be able to use a Renatus spec unit from Marylebone to Aylesbury and eventually to Milton Keynes. Third rail on the met and 25kv at Milton Keynes. I suspect fuel capacity will kill this, but it would be fun to make use of all three power supplies. This would also then cascade out 165s to Bristol.

Very, very, very unlikely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not possible, as the Met uses a four-rail system. The Watford DC line only works with regular EMUs because it isn't a proper four-rail system, the centre rail is grounded.

 

[QueensCurve]

Sort of, kind of, not really. Plus they ride worse than Pacers

In whose fantasy? The pacers have only 4 wheels per coach - no bogies. This makes for a truly awful right on jointed track.
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Windermere and Barrow are made for this kind of thing.

And I really had got my hopes up that Windermere would be wired if not Barrow. :roll:
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Beddau area some of the local councilers have said that they've been told the line to Beddau will be given the green light for reopening

Beddau? Would that be Welsh for "Graves"?
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The 40 miles between Cambridge and King's Lynn only carries 1tph electric off-peak.
For a number of years, the WCML north of Preston/Lancaster only carried 1tp2h Euston-Glasgow.
The Manchester and Birmingham trains (and most of the freight) had reverted to diesel.
Much the same applied to Weaver Jn-Liverpool before the 350s arrived.
Stafford-Wolverhampton and Carstairs-Edinburgh had virtually no regular electrics at all.

Cardiff-Swansea may only carry 1tph electric off peak (the reason its business case is poor).

Going back far enough there were 2tph Weaver to Liverpool (1 Intercity, 1 stopper).

Cardiff to Swansea has a further hurdle in that electrification had been due to receive EU funding which may not now be forthcoming.

 

[D365]

Cardiff to Swansea has a further hurdle in that electrification had been due to receive EU funding which may not now be forthcoming.

Oh the sweet irony.

 

[childwallblues]

^ i meant carriages not sets.

ok then.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not possible, as the Met uses a four-rail system. The Watford DC line only works with regular EMUs because it isn't a proper four-rail system, the centre rail is grounded.

I cannot see any fundamental reason why the relevant parts of the Met couldn't also be set to 750 volt and 0 volt (on the pos and neg conductors respectively) to allow a normally fitted third rail DC EMU to run.
It is how it already works with the S7s running to Wimbledon and Richmond. The centre rail is bonded to the running rails, it is not grounded as such. There would have to be followup signalling changes, but it is not as impossible as you imply.

 

[edwin_m]

I cannot see any fundamental reason why the relevant parts of the Met couldn't also be set to 750 volt and 0 volt (on the pos and neg conductors respectively) to allow a normally fitted third rail DC EMU to run.
It is how it already works with the S7s running to Wimbledon and Richmond. The centre rail is bonded to the running rails, it is not grounded as such. There would have to be followup signalling changes, but it is not as impossible as you imply.

At present the signalling used wouldn't allow the traction return through the running rails - I don't know if the SSL re-signalling might change this. And given the ORR position on third rail operation there might be a concern about reducing safety standards (greater voltage present on the one remaining rail) on a system that is already considered* not safe enough.

The other option would be to fit fourth rail shoes onto the 319, although it would still be necessary to demonstrate safe operation of a train with through bus wiring which LUL doesn't have. However, would Harrow to Amersham be far enough on third/fourth rail to justify using a non-standard unit which probably wouldn't be able to keep to 165 schedules in diesel mode?

*rightly or wrongly - we've had that argument numerous times and I'm hoping not to start it again here.

 

[furnessvale]

Oh the sweet irony.

Ironic indeed that the UK government will spend money directly on this project rather than sending it to the EU first, where, of course, the EU cream off two thirds of the cash, before sending a little back to Wales.

 

[najaB]

Ironic indeed that the UK government will spend money directly on this project...

When you've got a moment, could I speak to you about this bridge I've got for sale?

 

[ainsworth74]

This is not a thread for discussing the EU and the impact of Brexit on the UK. Any further such posts will be deleted as off-topic. Please use existing threads or start a new thread if you wish to discuss this further.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely another thing driving how many Bi mode Class 319s are required will be the fuel range? If the number of miles they could do is limited to say 800 miles (half that of an XC 170) then the 319s will either need to visit a fuel point more often or the work shared amongst more Class 319s.

One hopes that has been taken into consideration?

You would like to think so, however......

 

[a_c_skinner]

The current Rail Magazine has an article from Porterbrook (mainly) about the 319 Flex. Unsurprisingly it is bullish and essentially says the off wires performance will be comparable with Class 150, fuel enough for two days operation on the diagrams to Buxton and ready for passenger service by end of calendar year. Batteries to boost power output for short periods. It describes a lot of development work done before any whisper leaked to the public domain. Track charges not huge compared with Sprinters either. Obviously optimistic, but worth a read. Also a pretty optimistic piece about the 230s.

Edit: E&OE, about to read it in detail in the bath.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Surely another thing driving how many Bi mode Class 319s are required will be the fuel range? If the number of miles they could do is limited to say 800 miles (half that of an XC 170) then the 319s will either need to visit a fuel point more often or the work shared amongst more Class 319s.

New RAIL magazine ISSUE 819 has a very nice 6 page article on the 319 flex.

MAN D2876 engines are being used, the engine will be very fuel efficient as it will run at maximum efficiency all the time, whereas the engine in a diesel hydraulic DMU cycles through the rpm range when its running. The engine just runs at a near constant speed in its maximum efficiency range feeding the existing 750v line.
The engine has been chosen because it is rail approved, currently used in Europe and is compliant with the latest sage IIIB low emissions regulations. The engine will be used with a alternator manufactured by ABB which is also used elsewhere in Europe meaning the complete drive train is proven.
Porterbrooks modeling work shows that it can work for two days on one tank of fuel on a arduous diagram. Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton is Northern's worst route, it performed admirably in modeling able to complete eight return journeys per day to the current timetable, in effect performing like a four car Class 15x formation

 

[Jamesrob637]

The current Rail Magazine has an article from Porterbrook (mainly) about the 319 Flex. Unsurprisingly it is bullish and essentially says the off wires performance will be comparable with Class 150, fuel enough for two days operation on the diagrams to Buxton and ready for passenger service by end of calendar year. Batteries to boost power output for short periods. It describes a lot of development work done before any whisper leaked to the public domain. Track charges not huge compared with Sprinters either. Obviously optimistic, but worth a read. Also a pretty optimistic piece about the 230s.

Edit: E&OE, about to read it in detail in the bath.

If that puts an end to two-coach trains on the Buxton line (and strengthens other services in the process) I'm all for this!

 

[a_c_skinner]

They didn't go as far as to rashly say they were going to use them there! The whole Northern franchise seems short of rolling stock with ridership obviously limited by capacity at many times in many places so you may have to join the queue. Mind you since the 319s arrived a good number of trains seem to have been strengthened.

 

[47802]

I guess if it does have equivalent performance to a 150 and can be used on more diesel orientated diagrams it could be a bit of game changer and certainly help cover of any shortfall in stock Northern and other TOC's have regarding cascade plans.

However comments elsewhere still reckoned to be very high leasing charges, well I guess somebodies got the pay the development and conversion costs so that might limit its usage somewhat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They didn't go as far as to rashly say they were going to use them there!

Buxton would be a good use-case because the wires could be used as far as Hazel Grove. And the suburban interior is much more suited to that route than to Barrow/Windermere, so the interior conversions would be cheaper too - just new seat covers, an accessible bog and a bit of paint.

Though I still think new bi-modes should have been specified for the former North West Express services to Barrow and Windermere as a single service group.

 

[47802]

Buxton would be a good use-case because the wires could be used as far as Hazel Grove. And the suburban interior is much more suited to that route than to Barrow/Windermere, so the interior conversions would be cheaper too - just new seat covers, an accessible bog and a bit of paint.

Though I still think new bi-modes should have been specified for the former North West Express services to Barrow and Windermere as a single service group.

Well clearly Arriva did their sums and thought otherwise to the armchair experts on here.

 

[ac6000cw]

Mmm - I'd be interested in how well they might cope with a wet/snowy/icy/leafy trip on the gradients and curves of the Buxton line. Only four powered DC-drive axles per unit (half that of a DMU) and heavier than the the electric-only version, but with none of the extra weight on the driving axles.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Mmm - I'd be interested in how well they might cope with a wet/snowy/icy/leafy trip on the gradients and curves of the Buxton line. Only four powered DC-drive axles per unit (half that of a DMU) and heavier than the the electric-only version, but with none of the extra weight on the driving axles.

It does not say they will be used to Buxton in the RAIL article it says
To prove the concept would work Porterbrook asked Brush Traction to develop a feasibility study including detailed modeling work. They wanted Brush to test the concept before any metal was cut on the worst route they could imagine. After speaking with Northern they chose Manchester to Buxton.
Northern have not yet chosen which routes they will operate on.
Porterbrook have asked Northern what type of interior they want fitted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well clearly Arriva did their sums and thought otherwise to the armchair experts on here.

I'm sure they did their financial sums. However, the motivations not to be using fume-belching, rattly diesels when there are overhead wires are not short-term financial in nature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

none of the extra weight on the driving axles.

The transformer for the 25kV is pretty heavy, containing as it does a massive lump of iron or steel.