Train v National Express Coach v Plane

[takno]

I've just been looking at travelling to London from Plymouth on 23rd Feb returning on the 24th for a friend. He needs to be in London before 0830,
Natex £20 return
Megabus £15 return
Train £267 return due to the peak arrival in London.
Apparently London to south west passenger numbers are down on the train yet the coaches are booming. The coach of course has zero flexibility, but that seems a price worth paying to save £250!

You could get the sleeper for a fraction of that

 

[al78]

The prevailing view away from sites such as this and certainly away from London is that the bus is for poor people who cant afford a car and have no choice. Go an ask some real people if they would willingly stop driving or getting the train and instead get a bus to work. They wont, even if the service is good. I know how few people get the bus to my place of work despite a decent service from many parts of the town and a bus interchange but moments away.

All that shows is that perception and fact can be completely different.

Some people use the bus because parking at their destination is a nightmare.
Some people use the bus because they cannot drive for medical reasons.
Some people use the bus because they are eco-conscious and want to cut down on driving.

The same statement about being poor has been thrown at cyclists as well. In both cases it is nonsense, and says more about the person making the assertion.

I am not sure what you define as "real people" (people who share your limited world view perhaps?), but given the success of the Leigh guided busway in Gtr Manchester, there are people who will substitute driving for a bus or train ride, if it is a practical option for them. There are people who have decided that sitting on your backside in a metal box going nowhere fast staring at someone elses rear bumper is not a productive use of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could get the sleeper for a fraction of that

Some people can't sleep on Sleepers. For me, a 4am start with 4 hours' actual sleep in bed is far more use than a Sleeper even one giving a nominal 8 hours, because I won't get any of those 8 hours.

It's an experience and an adventure, but not something to do before a day's work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The prevailing view away from sites such as this and certainly away from London is that the bus is for poor people who cant afford a car and have no choice. Go an ask some real people if they would willingly stop driving or getting the train and instead get a bus to work. They wont, even if the service is good. I know how few people get the bus to my place of work despite a decent service from many parts of the town and a bus interchange but moments away.

The local bus service in MK is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "decent". It is better than some places, but it is a typical Arriva operation - lackadaisical, poorly presented, scruffy and dirty vehicles, badly trained and poorly presented staff, often slow due to diverting through estates, unpunctual despite MK's excellent road network, poor evening coverage etc.

I can quite see why it doesn't attract many people out of their cars. Every time I use it (mainly on routes 4 and 7) I find something substantial that is wrong with it that really shouldn't be.

 

[Temple Meads]

You could get the sleeper for a fraction of that

Cheapest return I can see for the train is £84.50 on advances, going up on the sleeper on the night of the 23rd, returning on the 19:03 to Plymouth on the 24th. Still a lot pricier than the coach.

(As an aside, the 17:03 from Paddington is offering a standard class advance for £120.50! Bargain! )

 

[furnessvale]

I was thinking more the inevitable traffic on the M1/M6.

If it's inevitable, it should be built into the timetable.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Some people can't sleep on Sleepers. For me, a 4am start with 4 hours' actual sleep in bed is far more use than a Sleeper even one giving a nominal 8 hours, because I won't get any of those 8 hours.

It's an experience and an adventure, but not something to do before a day's work.

Not something for you to do before a day's work!

Plenty of other people do it before a day's work.

Some people can't sleep on Sleepers. Some people can!

 

[dk1]

Cheapest return I can see for the train is £84.50 on advances, going up on the sleeper on the night of the 23rd, returning on the 19:03 to Plymouth on the 24th. Still a lot pricier than the coach.

(As an aside, the 17:03 from Paddington is offering a standard class advance for £120.50! Bargain! )

That seems an absolute bargain to me for far more civilised transport.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The local bus service in MK is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "decent". ...

The underlying problem is surely that the design of MK is so fundamentally car-centric that a bus service cannot really compete.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The underlying problem is surely that the design of MK is so fundamentally car-centric that a bus service cannot really compete.

That is to an extent true, but most of the problems with Arriva MK stem from a culture of sloppiness that seems to pervade many areas of the industry and would cost relatively little to fix.

I observe the same culture of sloppiness in ATW and XC, to be fair, so perhaps it pervades Arriva. I certainly find Stagecoach to be much better.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The underlying problem is surely that the design of MK is so fundamentally car-centric that a bus service cannot really compete.

The prevailing view of the town planners seemed to be that people would be willing to walk to the grid roads in order to catch a bus. Unfortunately this wasn't the case, and companies have to maximise route coverage at a minimum cost, so you end up with buses meandering their way through estates before arriving at CMK. I imagine it's why a lot of people commute to Milton Keynes from Bletchley by train, despite a much more frequent yet much longer bus service.

The biggest issue I have with Milton Keyne's car-centricism is the redevelopment of the bus stands outside the railway station which, as an evening shift worker, often delays my bus to up 15 minutes as private hire cars jam up the roads. But that's another ranty topic...

 

[maniacmartin]

I never take a coach or a bus, and will always either take the train or car, or nor take the trip at all. I know this often costs more, but I believe it's worth paying extra for. This is because all of my previous coach and bus journeys in the past have been unpleasant (although I have never travelled on National Express)

Coaches are slow and their movement makes me travel sick very quickly (especially how the bouncy Oxford - MK X5s were driven last time I used one). I always feel cooped up, the windows often steam up and the aircon feels like artificial air. The walk-up timetable frequency usually doesn't come close to comparing with the train, and partly because of that, connections aren't as good. For many journeys not between the big cities, there might only be a handful of itineraries that are available at inconvenient times. As I live in suburbia, I'd also have to factor in getting to a coach stop in the first place too.

Local buses are overpriced and outside of London the information provision is poor, with disjointed information systems and ticketting. Stops aren't often announced so if you're travelling somewhere you're unfamiliar with you have to be very alert to not miss your stop. Many local buses feel like they are the cheapest models available - all of their plastic interiors rattle, they have awful suspension and they resonate when the bus is stationary. You can feel and hear every bump in the road. I don't know how anyone can even travel on them without taking a dose of paracetamol before boarding.


I have no problems with a pacer though, as long as its on rails

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest issue I have with Milton Keyne's car-centricism is the redevelopment of the bus stands outside the railway station which, as an evening shift worker, often delays my bus to up 15 minutes as private hire cars jam up the roads. But that's another ranty topic...

Never assume conspiracy...the issue there is quite simply utter incompetence on the part of the traffic works division of the Council. Also known for such things as marking conflicting arrows on the Redmoor roundabout, which must have caused loads of accidents (I certainly narrowly avoided one by noticing the car on the right moving towards me and so hastily taking an unintended exit).

Did you know that they originally built (actually built, not just designed) the new bus station thingy so that (a) you couldn't get a full-size bus round the corner at the entrance end, and (b) a full-sized bus couldn't pass another full-sized bus when on a bay. Yes, really, they had to dig it up again and redo it. The same incompetents had planned it for Mercedes Vario minibuses as used to be used, not proper buses as now are.

 

[DarloRich]

All that shows is that perception and fact can be completely different.

i agree

Some people use the bus because parking at their destination is a nightmare.
Some people use the bus because they cannot drive for medical reasons.
Some people use the bus because they are eco-conscious and want to cut down on driving.

Not here they don't. Only the middle one holds any likelihood of being correct & I bet you can count on one finger the number of people who choose their transport options on the basis of ecological impact.

The same statement about being poor has been thrown at cyclists as well. In both cases it is nonsense, and says more about the person making the assertion.

Have you seen how much decent cycling equipment costs? it isnt a past time for people on a limited budget, especially if you need to cover a decent distance to get to work.

You best take it up with the media generally as that is their perception as well. People are driven ( pun intended) by advertising to own their own car. It is seen as the natural thing to do. The narrative is that the bus is a poor relation for poor people with poor life chances.

I am not sure what you define as "real people" (people who share your limited world view perhaps?), but given the success of the Leigh guided busway in Gtr Manchester, there are people who will substitute driving for a bus or train ride, if it is a practical option for them. There are people who have decided that sitting on your backside in a metal box going nowhere fast staring at someone elses rear bumper is not a productive use of time.

Real people are those living in the real world managing jobs and families not spottery people wiblbing away on a specialist forum - so few of us here! Unlike us they don't have a particular bias or love for a particular transport option. They just want to get to and from work and pick the kids up easily.

Normal people I know wont choose a bus willingly. They simply wont. It is slow, indirect, quite expensive on a dialy basis and even when it would get them almost door to door in the same town they would rather drive, especially to work. We did a travel survey at work and about 1.5% came by bus, mostly those who have not passed a driving test. Very few did so by choice.

BTW - I don't own a car so quite agree there are better things to do than sitting on your backside in a metal box going nowhere fast staring at someone elses rear bumper

The local bus service in MK is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "decent". It is better than some places, but it is a typical Arriva operation - lackadaisical, poorly presented, scruffy and dirty vehicles, badly trained and poorly presented staff, often slow due to diverting through estates, unpunctual despite MK's excellent road network, poor evening coverage etc.

I can quite see why it doesn't attract many people out of their cars. Every time I use it (mainly on routes 4 and 7) I find something substantial that is wrong with it that really shouldn't be.

Do you think so? It is better than many places I have lived even if Arriva/ MK council cut back the number one from my former house to Blethcley bus station. Cross town services seem OK but the extremities are not best served. The issue is, as GatwickDepress says, on speed is trying to cover so many of the large housing areas with so few services/buses.

having lived in towns and villages with no bus service MK seems superb to me!

 

[Fishplate84]

Generally, the only thing that is in Rail's favour is the quite poor leg room on the coaches. For someone a bit taller like me, coaches can get quite uncomfortable.

However, in the never ending quest to squeeze more people on the train, I've come to hate the shallow, narrow, thinly padded high density seating increasingly fitted to even long distance trains. That added to the ridiculous high seatbacks that cut off all views apart from the bit of window you're next to and very odd seat pitch on some trains and the coach starts to look more tempting.
Even the rail replacement busses are often quieter, warmer and more comfortable than the trains they are replacing.

If you can get over the unwarranted stigma of it being a bus... then they are often a better choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even the rail replacement busses are often quieter, warmer and more comfortable than the trains they are replacing.



If you can get over the unwarranted stigma of it being a bus... then they are often a better choice.

I do remember remarking this during the long running weekend FNW strikes of the early 2000s when they decided to arrange a (barely used) comprehensive replacement service on almost all routes using quite high quality coaches, with enough seats for two each. Certainly beat a Pacer!


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[Bletchleyite]

Have you seen how much decent cycling equipment costs? it isnt a past time for people on a limited budget, especially if you need to cover a decent distance to get to work.

I guess you don't cycle, because if you did you would notice that the vast majority of users of the Redways are using very cheap bikes, either Halfords cheapo specials or ageing second hand racing bikes, and they are using them to commute often very long distances to low paid jobs like the many warehouses around MK. They are a firm competition for the bus, as cycling is direct and feels very safe on the fully segregated Redway system, and buses are slow, dirty and unpunctual.

The way bikes are used in MK is, give or take the hills which reduce the number of older and less fit cyclists, very Dutch indeed.

The two grand road bikes are generally to be found cycling round the track at the Bowl or on a car rack heading out to a car park on the edge of the city for a ride on much more enjoyable country lanes.

Do you think so? It is better than many places I have lived even if Arriva/ MK council cut back the number one from my former house to Blethcley bus station. Cross town services seem OK but the extremities are not best served. The issue is, as GatwickDepress says, on speed is trying to cover so many of the large housing areas with so few services/buses.

having lived in towns and villages with no bus service MK seems superb to me!

The low quality of bus services in much of the UK doesn't provide much of a base to improve upon!

Coverage is not terrible, but there is absolutely no attention to detail nor quality. It simply is not good enough in a town where there is absolutely no stick to push people out of cars. If they want to get anywhere, they need Trent Barton levels of attention to detail.


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[Clip]

Have you seen how much decent cycling equipment costs? it isnt a past time for people on a limited budget, especially if you need to cover a decent distance to get to work.

You dont need to go crazy for a decent cycle to get you a few miles to and from work and even if you cant outlay around £300- £400 for one then you can always do the cycle to work scheme https://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/get-a-bike/how-it-works and save a little bit of money on yoru tax too

 

[dievoyagerdie]

I think NX have came a long way. The new cabin is comfortable, spacious, modern and I'm looking forward to trying the streaming entertainment system on my next trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think NX have came a long way.

That they have.

The new cabin is comfortable, spacious

It's really not. The seats are narrow[1] and legroom is still woefully inadequate (they need to downseat by about 2-3 rows per coach to get it adequate).

[1] They can't do much about that in itself short of going 2+1, but they would do well to consider the seats used by many European operators (notably iDbus) which pull out into the aisle a bit so at least you're not pressed up against the other passenger.

It *does* look nice (making my point well about things like wood-effect lino being a relatively cheap way to get something looking classy), but it has a long way to go to even match the Pendolino/Voyager, let alone a more comfortable rail vehicle.

 

[Temple Meads]

I have a fairly small frame and I find the seats a tad too wide as it is, any wider and a lot of passengers would probably be sliding all over the place off the motorway! The seats with adjustable bolsters you mentioned are a better idea.

Legroom is better than a lot of trains, but they tend to be ones used on local journeys, and given the length of most NX runs, a bit more wiggle room would be welcome!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a fairly small frame and I find the seats a tad too wide as it is, any wider and a lot of passengers would probably be sliding all over the place off the motorway! The seats with adjustable bolsters you mentioned are a better idea.

I'm quite a lot bigger, but I agree that the seats themselves are not so much the issue as the spacing, both between them and between the window seat and the side wall. As coach widths are fixed and 2+1 is probably not economic I do think the pull-out seats are the way to go. That, or as I've said before, allowing passengers to pay a premium for a double seat. (At present you can't even do that by booking two seats, as the empty seat can be filled by a walk-up, or you might not get two together if boarding at an intermediate stop).

Legroom is better than a lot of trains, but they tend to be ones used on local journeys, and given the length of most NX runs, a bit more wiggle room would be welcome!

The generally high frequency of trains means that, at least on a walk-up, you can break your journey up for a walk around - or just walk around the train. You can't do that on a coach, and journeys are much longer, so I do think a higher standard of comfort is needed to be a selling point.

 

[fowler9]

I think that unless National Express intend to gridlock the motorways with their coaches they are doing alright without a new Unique Selling Point. They are really cheap at short notice.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What happened with NXs plan to close Victoria Coach Station and move it elsewhere? Did the plan get dumped in the end?

 

[Lrd]

What happened with NXs plan to close Victoria Coach Station and move it elsewhere? Did the plan get dumped in the end?

National Express don't own Victoria Coach Station. It's owned by TfL.

There were rumours of VCS closing and moving to Old Oak Common to connect with Crossrail and HS2 but this appears to have been forgotten about.

 

[BestWestern]

I would suggest that it's probably fair to say walk-up train fares and NatEx coach tickets attract different markets. People don't shop around and then decide to spend a hundred quid or more on a train ticket rather than a tenner on a coach ride. Advance tickets could perhaps be said to be on a closer par. There will, however, always be a healthy market for both modes of travel I am certain. People on a budget will go with whatever is cheap, even when that meant a Megabus run with elderly tri-axle Leyland Olympians, the success of which was sufficient to firmly establish the brand. Equally, no matter how stratospheric ticket prices get, millions more will continue to travel by train. I would suggest that being a major player in either market is a pretty good place to be!

 

[Robertj21a]

That they have.



[1] They can't do much about that in itself short of going 2+1, but they would do well to consider the seats used by many European operators (notably iDbus) which pull out into the aisle a bit so at least you're not pressed up against the other passenger.

I wonder if our authorities would be concerned about the restricted aisle in the event of any emergency ? - don't know, just wondering.

 

[PeterC]

National Express don't own Victoria Coach Station. It's owned by TfL.

My understanding was that it is actually leasehold and it was the landlord, Grosvenor Estates, that wanted to redevelop. Everything seems to have gone quiet though.

 

[infobleep]

Generally, the only thing that is in Rail's favour is the quite poor leg room on the coaches. For someone a bit taller like me, coaches can get quite uncomfortable.

However, in the never ending quest to squeeze more people on the train, I've come to hate the shallow, narrow, thinly padded high density seating increasingly fitted to even long distance trains. That added to the ridiculous high seatbacks that cut off all views apart from the bit of window you're next to and very odd seat pitch on some trains and the coach starts to look more tempting.
Even the rail replacement busses are often quieter, warmer and more comfortable than the trains they are replacing.

If you can get over the unwarranted stigma of it being a bus... then they are often a better choice.

Standing on a stagecoach bus doing about 40-50 miles an hour isn't as comfortable as a train. I've done it. It was packed too. A train would certainly offer more space than that and be quicker too.

I don't mind buses in London for regular travel but less do for rail replacement services outside of London. Coaches aren't so bad as replacement buses I guess but it does take longer than the train and you can have longer interchange times or even miss connecting hourly trains.

As for National Express, I've only taken them to Heathrow and they were OK. I don't remember any WiFi on board. They were quicker than going by train from Woking but more expensive off peak than going via London and taking the tube. So the bus isn't always cheaper.

When I use to live in Oxford a lot of fellow students would go into central London by coach. Either the Oxford Tube or the rival, whose name I currently forget. I never did because I always wanted to visit people I knew in places like Wimbledon and the cost of getting into London by coach and then a separate train ticket, wouldn't in my opinion have saved me any money or not cost more. I might have been wrong about that of course. This was between 1996 and 1999. I had a Young Person's railcard.

I certainly made use of the buses around Oxford. They were good and some ran all night. Lots of places don't get that level of service.

I couldn't use a long distance coach now though, as they don't run often enough near where I live and I'd have to get to the coach stop, which would probably be a separate bus trip away or a walk of at least 20-30 minutes. I'd rather walk to a railway station and jump on a train.

I'd use local buses though.

 

[Lrd]

My understanding was that it is actually leasehold and it was the landlord, Grosvenor Estates, that wanted to redevelop. Everything seems to have gone quiet though.

That makes sense, I just went on the basis that all the staff were TfL staff.