EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Aldaniti]

Suggestions are always welcome, of course, but I don't see what business it is of yours. Why do you think it matters where someone comes from? To me it seems like a very small detail. What "chip" do you think I have on my shoulder?

Also, you refer to one of my points from earlier. You say that the UK had a successful past. This is true in some respects, of course, and I assume by this you are referring to the British empire, as I was writing about imperialism. Do you really think the British empire was a good thing? It seems to me a really strange thing for Theresa May to refer to on the world stage when she's trying to find some friends for the UK.

I stand by what I said about recommending British people to leave the UK now, if they don't like the look of things to come. Don't you agree? As we discussed above, the British will probably soon lose the right to live and work in most nearby countries. If you don't go now, you may not be able to in future.

A few days ago you were suggesting Leavers might have spent a few minutes using that font of all intellect and knowledge - Wikipedia - before deciding which way to vote. You'll forgive me if I don't take up any more of your advice....

Then we have another who likes to deride the educational qualifications of those voting to leave the EU, and whose posts often exhibit some pretty poor grammar and spelling, and a regular ignorance of word capitalisation. You couldn't make it up.... What this thread has demonstrated to me - apart from the fact that many Remainers are only in favour of democracy when it goes in their favour - is that there's an increasing disconnect between education and intelligence.

No matter.. first we had Brexit, then Trump... soon we might have Paul Nutall as Stoke-on-Trent Central MP. I suspect there's a lot more toy throwing to come......

 

[miami]

Let me see if I've got this right.

Our PM is now in the US begging and grovelling for trade, so we would be trading with a country whose president believes in torture (and therefore extracting false confessions from innocents possibly resulting in the death penalty) and building a wall and charging another country for it (despite the country being so poor in the first place the wall is to be built to stop them emigrating)??

We just rejected a trade deal with the US because it would have allowed their terrible food quality (chlorine soaked chickens etc) over here, while at the same time selling off the NHS to them.

Just how much lower can Brexit sink??

Anyone not seeing the parallels between Trump voters and brexit voters (#notAllBrexitVotersAreRacistIdiotsButAllRacistIdiotsAreBrexitVoters) is blind

 

[miami]

And you are now claiming to know the minds of the 17.4 million leave voters.

WB's quote was

"As has already been said, that 17 million was made up of some people who didn't really want to leave or care but wanted the chance to stick a finger up to politicians for a start. And that is before you get to those who wanted an EEA type deal etc."

I don't think they meant all 17 million were protest voting, but we know some were. I don't think they meant all 17 million wanted an EEA deal, but we know some did.

What's clear is <50% of those that voted on June 24th want a hard brexit, but that's what we're getting. Democracy for the win!

 

[burneside]

WB's quote was

"As has already been said, that 17 million was made up of some people who didn't really want to leave or care but wanted the chance to stick a finger up to politicians for a start. And that is before you get to those who wanted an EEA type deal etc."

I don't think they meant all 17 million were protest voting, but we know some were. I don't think they meant all 17 million wanted an EEA deal, but we know some did.

What's clear is <50% of those that voted on June 24th want a hard brexit, but that's what we're getting. Democracy for the win!

It is not clear at all, that's just what the Remoaners would like to think and are therefore claiming it as fact, with no evidence to substantiate the claim.

 

[Trog]

Why do you think it matters where someone comes from? To me it seems like a very small detail. What "chip" do you think I have on my shoulder?

Also, you refer to one of my points from earlier. You say that the UK had a successful past. This is true in some respects, of course, and I assume by this you are referring to the British empire, as I was writing about imperialism. Do you really think the British empire was a good thing? It seems to me a really strange thing for Theresa May to refer to on the world stage when she's trying to find some friends for the UK.

I stand by what I said about recommending British people to leave the UK now, if they don't like the look of things to come. Don't you agree? As we discussed above, the British will probably soon lose the right to live and work in most nearby countries. If you don't go now, you may not be able to in future.

I am just intrigued that you have such strong opinions on both Brexit and what a crap place the UK is, while writing in a way that suggests you are an outsider. Knowing what someone who is telling you somethings own situation is gives you an idea on what weight to give to their opinion. For example if a cigarette manufacturer told me tobacco was harmless, I would give that opinion less weight than the opinion of someone with no financial interest.

As for the British Empire it had good and bad aspects like everything else done by mankind. But while that was not the aim of the exercise the countries that were in it seem on balance to have come out better in the long run. It also had highlights like abolishing slavery over a large part of the globe, and then sending the Royal Navy in to stop the trade by others. While there were less enlightened parts to it, it did avoid the excesses of the German and Belgian colonies. At a time when Britain was so dominant in the world that she could have done whatever she wanted, and no other country or even combination of countries could have stopped it.

I think recommending that people leave the country over Brexit is over the top almost to the point of hysteria, and myself I have never had the slightest wish to work in another EU country so the loss of that right does not bother me in the slightest.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is not clear at all, that's just what the Remoaners would like to think and are therefore claiming it as fact, with no evidence to substantiate the claim.

So you think that those that did not want a hard brexit (so everyone who voted as a protest vote, everyone who wanted a EEA type deal etc) makes up less than 2% of all the voters (or less than roughly 4% of leave voters). Really? Or are you denying that there were any leave voters who wanted those things?

 

[EM2]

It is not clear at all, that's just what the Remoaners would like to think and are therefore claiming it as fact, with no evidence to substantiate the claim.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...may-david-cameron-eu-referendum-a7340641.html
Soft Brexit preferred choice of Britons as poll shows willingness to compromise on immigration

BMG asked more than 1,000 people at the end of September whether they prefer a hard Brexit in which the UK “leaves the single market, leaves the customs union and gains full control over all aspects of immigration” or a soft Brexit which sees Britain retain “a degree of access to the single market, in return for giving some concessions to the EU on immigration to the UK”.

In total, a slim majority – 52 per cent – said they would rather Theresa May take the softer option, compared to 48 per cent who backed the hard option.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A few days ago you were suggesting Leavers might have spent a few minutes using that font of all intellect and knowledge - Wikipedia - before deciding which way to vote. You'll forgive me if I don't take up any more of your advice....

1 - If voters had used Wikipedia to do at least some research, then that would have mean a hell of a lot of people (remainers and leavers) would have gone into the vote massively better informed. Why would that be a bad thing?

2 - Wikipedia actually isn't as bad as a lot of people think it is. Especially for things that have a solid basis in knowledge of how things work. So it would actually be pretty damn good for learning how the EU works as a political and trading block for example. Certainly would be better than the knowledge most people have access to (cough paper headlines).

 

[miami]

myself I have never had the slightest wish to work in another EU country so the loss of that right does not bother me in the slightest.

Good for you, but you're happy to deny that right to everyone else. When my parents decided that 55 was a good time to go and open a bar in greece they faced all sorts of hurdles with greek bureaucracy, but they thoroughly enjoyed their time there before retirement

That right has now been denied to my generation by selfish insular "I don't want to go out of the UK so why should anyone else" brigade. Disgusting.

 

[Trog]

EM2 that is a very small sample of a population in the tens of millions, and on such a small sample that small a difference must be in the margin for error. Bearing in mind that the survey companies have not been doing very well lately.

 

[Trog]

Good for you, but you're happy to deny that right to everyone else.

That right has now been denied to my generation by selfish insular "I don't want to go out of the UK so why should anyone else" brigade. Disgusting.

Not happy to deny you that right I just don't care, and why should I care about you when it seems you don't care that the rights you value might come at a cost to me.

 

[anme]

A few days ago you were suggesting Leavers might have spent a few minutes using that font of all intellect and knowledge - Wikipedia - before deciding which way to vote. You'll forgive me if I don't take up any more of your advice....

Then we have another who likes to deride the educational qualifications of those voting to leave the EU, and whose posts often exhibit some pretty poor grammar and spelling, and a regular ignorance of word capitalisation. You couldn't make it up.... What this thread has demonstrated to me - apart from the fact that many Remainers are only in favour of democracy when it goes in their favour - is that there's an increasing disconnect between education and intelligence.

No matter.. first we had Brexit, then Trump... soon we might have Paul Nutall as Stoke-on-Trent Central MP. I suspect there's a lot more toy throwing to come......

This post speaks for itself and needs no comment from me. Nevertheless I can't resist writing the following:
- I may refer to Wikipedia articles from time to time, amongst other references. Which one do you consider to be inaccurate, and in what respect? Let's try to stick to facts in our discussions.
- I don't believe I have derided the educational qualifications of anyone (although plenty of others have). If you feel I have, then please point me to the relevant post and I will apologise to anyone who is offended, and I will defend them against any accusations of "snowflake" tendencies.
- You are, of course, welcome to point out any spelling or grammatical errors in my posts. I ask for your tolerance of a few mistakes as I write some posts on a smart phone and sadly my typing on the touchscreen is not very accurate. I am intrigued by your claim that I am ignorant of word capitalisation. For my education, please could you point to some examples? If you're referring to my use of "British empire", then that was deliberate although I agree perhaps controversial.
- Don't you agree with my advice, that British people should leave the UK now if they don't like the direction it is going in (e.g. possible UKIP victory in a by-election) - as they will probably lose the right to live and work in most nearby countries in a few years' time?

 

[EM2]

EM2 that is a very small sample of a population in the tens of millions, and on such a small sample that small a difference must be in the margin for error. Bearing in mind that the survey companies have not been doing very well lately.

You're surely not suggesting a second referendum so that we can determine an totally accurate figure?

What about this survey?
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/

There is little support for a so-called “hard Brexit” - even among Leave voters. Only 10% of people think Britain should leave the EU completely and not seek any sort of formal trading relationship and only 22% think we should drop out of the EU as rapidly as possible. The vast majority want a more gradual and negotiated exit. 31% think Britain should leave over the suggested two year timescale, 33% think that it would be fine to take even longer than this over our exit.

a hard Brexit – Britain leaving the EU and not having any sort of deal with the EU. We wouldn’t have to pay any fee or follow their rules, wouldn’t have to allow EU citizens any right to come here… but we would not have tariff-free or barrier-free access to EU markets. By 64% to 12% the public think this would respect the result of the referendum, but by 44% to 32% they think it wouldn’t be good for Britain.

 

[anme]

I am just intrigued that you have such strong opinions on both Brexit and what a crap place the UK is, while writing in a way that suggests you are an outsider. Knowing what someone who is telling you somethings own situation is gives you an idea on what weight to give to their opinion. For example if a cigarette manufacturer told me tobacco was harmless, I would give that opinion less weight than the opinion of someone with no financial interest.

I hope you judge my posts by the facts I present and the arguments justifying any opinions stated. I hope you will respond to those facts and those arguments. If I was very cynical I would see your questioning of my personal situation as an attempt to discredit posts that you don't like to agree with but that you *know* are right.

 

[Aldaniti]

This post speaks for itself and needs no comment from me. Nevertheless I can't resist writing the following:
- I may refer to Wikipedia articles from time to time, amongst other references. Which one do you consider to be inaccurate, and in what respect? Let's try to stick to facts in our discussions.
- I don't believe I have derided the educational qualifications of anyone (although plenty of others have). If you feel I have, then please point me to the relevant post and I will apologise to anyone who is offended, and I will defend them against any accusations of "snowflake" tendencies.
- You are, of course, welcome to point out any spelling or grammatical errors in my posts. I ask for your tolerance of a few mistakes as I write some posts on a smart phone and sadly my typing on the touchscreen is not very accurate. I am intrigued by your claim that I am ignorant of word capitalisation. For my education, please could you point to some examples? If you're referring to my use of "British empire", then that was deliberate although I agree perhaps controversial.
- Don't you agree with my advice, that British people should leave the UK now if they don't like the direction it is going in (e.g. possible UKIP victory in a by-election) - as they will probably lose the right to live and work in most nearby countries in a few years' time?

I thought it was clear, by starting another paragraph commencing with the words... Then we have another ... I was referring to another prolific RUK Remainer.

Just for the record, I wouldn't fault you on your spelling and grammar - yours strikes me to be good. Nobody is perfect, but my second paragraph was reserved for the aforementioned member who insists on doubting the educational standards of Leave voters, yet gives the impression he is lacking in that area himself - not your goodself.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not happy to deny you that right I just don't care, and why should I care about you when it seems you don't care that the rights you value might come at a cost to me.

What cost is that then?

 

[Mvann]

Aldaniti. You forgot to mention the likelihood of France voting in le penn as president.

 

[zuriblue]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/airbus-boss-brexit-warning-we-12500346

Airbus boss Brexit warning: 'We are entering a dangerous phase'
Airbus employs 6,000 people at Broughton in Flintshire and thousands more in businesses involved in the supply chain for the site. Airbus has 600 EU workers in the UK and 1,800 Brits in Europe.

He added that impediments to the free movement of products between sites could impact long term future investment decisions.
Chief operating officer Tom Williams told MPs that Washington would be "delighted" if free movement was hit.
He added that the US would make decisions based on the benefits to US rival Boeing and that he was sceptical that the World Trade Organisation (WTO) was effective at resolving disputes.
The BBC reported that he said relying on WTO rules if an EU deal could not be reached was not a "sensible fallback position".

Flintshire voted 56-44 for leave.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Have you seen the Facebook LBC Nigel Farage piece.

I don't know how to link it here maybe someone could help.

You should see the sort of vile claptrap on there, what lovely bed fellows the leavers keep.

 

[DarloRich]

Leaving the single market was mentioned many times during the campaign, it's all there if you care to search for it. For me, and I suspect a lot of leave voters, it also means no FoM and no contributions to the EU budget.

but the various leave personalities made so many contradicting statements. You can pick any outcome you like from what they said. They tried to say al lthings to all people.

It is clear no one had ( or perhaps even has) a plan for what brexit looks like. We voted to leave. We have no idea what leave looks like.

 

[DarloRich]

One thing is totally certain, that the leave voters did not want to remain in the EU as it stands. Cameron had touted his begging bowl around the EU leaders and came back with virtually nothing. As far as I was concerned the only other option was to wave goodbye to Brussels, and it seems 17.4 million thought along the same lines.

I disagree - I think Cameron thought that he would win, narrowly, and then use that result as the lever to force a better deal. That backfired a tad.

It also isnt as simple as many leavers seem to to think. It isnt a case of just packing up and leaving. The complexity and variance of topics that need to be discussed and agreed is mindbending.

 

[anme]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/airbus-boss-brexit-warning-we-12500346

Airbus boss Brexit warning: 'We are entering a dangerous phase'
Airbus employs 6,000 people at Broughton in Flintshire and thousands more in businesses involved in the supply chain for the site. Airbus has 600 EU workers in the UK and 1,800 Brits in Europe.

He added that impediments to the free movement of products between sites could impact long term future investment decisions.
Chief operating officer Tom Williams told MPs that Washington would be "delighted" if free movement was hit.
He added that the US would make decisions based on the benefits to US rival Boeing and that he was sceptical that the World Trade Organisation (WTO) was effective at resolving disputes.
The BBC reported that he said relying on WTO rules if an EU deal could not be reached was not a "sensible fallback position".

Flintshire voted 56-44 for leave.

I would like some leavers to comment on this, especially given their new-found enthusiasm for leaving the single market. Now, I actually expect any trade deal between the EU and the UK will try to avoid imposing tariffs on the Airbus supply chain, but it's not necessarily that simple under WTO rules (where the same tariffs generally have to apply to all members). However, it will impose extra costs because more bureaucracy will be needed (the claim that leaving the EU would mean less red tape was utterly moronic) and long term investment decisions are likely to take this into account.

 

[miami]

Quite clearly "Leave the European Union" means pulling out of the "Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community"

I'm unsure why anyone is surprised

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/britain-quits-european-nuclear-body-pgmq9m9fc

New power stations in doubt after Brexit change
....
The decision to announce Britain’s planned exit from Euratom yesterday caught the nuclear industry by surprise and caused concern in parts of government. Some ministers wanted to delay the announcement because of…

(paywalled)

Also
http://www.thegwpf.com/britain-quits-euratom/

It is understood that Japanese-led ventures Horizon and Nugen, which are developing plans for reactors on Anglesey and in Cumbria respectively, could face particular problems because their plans involve co-operation with US nuclear companies.

The US currently has an agreement with Euratom but not with the UK bilaterally. US law prohibits nuclear co-operation without an agreement.

At least we've taken back control!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Interesting and rather perceptive http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21715652-leaving-european-union-means-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its today, making the point that Teresa May's (IMO, sickening) cosying up to Donald Trump is in part forced on her by the loss of our influence that's being caused by Brexit:

Britain’s excruciating embrace of Donald Trump shows how little independence it has gained from Brexit

(snip)
So why is Mrs May hurrying to Washington? Because Brexit compels Britain’s leaders to show that the country has powerful allies. And “my Maggie” (as the president calls Mrs May) is desperate to line up a Britain-America trade deal that can be closed as soon as Brexit takes place, probably in 2019.

Whether this will end happily is uncertain. In trade negotiations, size matters. Larger economies can stipulate terms that suit them. Britain, an economy of 60m people, has much less leverage in trade talks than the EU, a market of 500m, or the United States, one of 300m. Mr Trump may promise an agreement “very quickly” and to show other countries that it is safe to leave the EU by giving Britain generous treatment. But more than anything else he is an America First deal-wrangler who knows he has the upper hand. A rushed agreement could see the National Health Service opened up to American firms and environmental and food standards diluted (think hormone-treated beef).
(snip)

The curious thing is that Brexit was supposed to be about “taking back control”: immunising the country from foreign whim and interest, while asserting national dignity and independence. Increasingly that looks like a bad joke. The British elite feels it has no choice but to prostrate itself before an American president it clearly finds odious.

So much for taking back control. Many of us on the remain side have been pointing out for ages that Brexit is very likely to lose the UK far more 'control' than it gives us. Perhaps Theresa May and Trump is one of the first confirmations of this?

 

[HSTEd]

This is what we get for outsourcing nuclear R&D and dismantling the construction infrastructure under Thatcher and Major.

 

[Howardh]

The curious thing is that Brexit was supposed to be about “taking back control”: immunising the country from foreign whim and interest, while asserting national dignity and independence. Increasingly that looks like a bad joke. The British elite feels it has no choice but to prostrate itself before an American president it clearly finds odious.

From day one when the referendum was announced, it was obvious that far from "gaining control" and "independence" we would lose every scrap of both we have left. Proof - the sickening grovelling to the USA in the hope that we can do more trade and somehow come out of it reasonably. But we're gonna have to go grovelling to every other country too, cap-in-hand "please, Sir, will you buy something from us? Anything??"

If Gadaffi and Hussain were alive I would expect a queue of British diplomats and negotiators queuing up outside their doors.

On the bright side, we might get a deal selling weapons to North Korea.

 

[anme]

Interesting and rather perceptive http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21715652-leaving-european-union-means-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its today, making the point that Teresa May's (IMO, sickening) cosying up to Donald Trump is in part forced on her by the loss of our influence that's being caused by Brexit:



So much for taking back control. Many of us on the remain side have been pointing out for ages that Brexit is very likely to lose the UK far more 'control' than it gives us. Perhaps Theresa May and Trump is one of the first confirmations of this?

I would very much like leavers to stop complaining about perceived insults and poor spelling, and instead explain why they think that article is wrong.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Good for you, but you're happy to deny that right to everyone else. When my parents decided that 55 was a good time to go and open a bar in greece they faced all sorts of hurdles with greek bureaucracy, but they thoroughly enjoyed their time there before retirement

That right has now been denied to my generation by selfish insular "I don't want to go out of the UK so why should anyone else" brigade. Disgusting.

I hope your parents paid tax on their Greek earnings. Greece's inability to collect taxes is one of the reasons why the country is in such a mess. Disgusting.

 

[anme]

I hope your parents paid tax on their Greek earnings. Greece's inability to collect taxes is one of the reasons why the country is in such a mess. Disgusting.

Instead of making disparaging remarks implying wrongdoing by someone else's parents, perhaps you could explain why you think the Economist article referenced above (*) is wrong?

(*) http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its

 

[RichmondCommu]

Instead of making disparaging remarks implying wrongdoing by someone else's parents, perhaps you could explain why you think the Economist article referenced above (*) is wrong?

(*) http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ns-country-has-less-not-more-control-over-its

All I did was ask a question. Where did I imply any wrong doing? Are you denying that the Greeks have a problem in the collection of taxes?

When did I say that the article is wrong?