EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Senex]

Frankly this makes the British look ridiculous in the eyes of the world. It shows that the UK still didn't get over the loss of its empire and still doesn't understand that imperialism is considered a bad thing by most people across the world (many of whom have been subjected to imperialism themselves in one form or another).

And this sucking up to the US is demeaning, is it not?

I certainly think so.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Frankly this makes the British look ridiculous in the eyes of the world. It shows that the UK still didn't get over the loss of its empire and still doesn't understand that imperialism is considered a bad thing by most people across the world (many of whom have been subjected to imperialism themselves in one form or another).

Would you think that successive Labour Governments from the 1960s time period saw it in their political interests to be seen to totally and utterly remove themselves from any link to "The Days of Empire"?

 

[northwichcat]

Would you think that successive Labour Governments from the 1960s time period saw it in their political interests to be seen to totally and utterly remove themselves from any link to "The Days of Empire"?

The acts to make countries like Canada and Hong Kong fully independent from Britain were passed in Thatcher's first term in office but did she initiate them or did she complete the work Callaghan had already started?

 

[zuriblue]

Here's pretty civilised and sensible. For a proper look at the leavers more, erm, unstable side, look at the comments section on any BBC News article that could remotely be attributed to Europe or Brexit.

Or the Daily Mail or Daily Express. They seem to particularly froth at the mouth in the Express.

 

[miami]

Why does anyone care about what politicians did in a time nearly over 50 years ago? Very few people in the current parties were in them in the 1960s. In the US it used to be the Republicans that were against slavery.

In the 60s and 70s it probably made sense to support the tory party. Certainly in the early 90s it did (despite the best efforts of that party to kill itself, which ultimately led to the disaster of brexit)

I could even see supporting Cameron and "compassionate conservatism". The Tory/LibDem coalition was a brilliant government

However nowadays, with the unelected flag waving Trumpette proclaiming to the world that Britannia rules the waves (as long as we don't have to fire a missile) I can't see any sane person supporting either of the 2 large parties at the moment.

 

[zuriblue]

But I didn't call the leavers stupid, did I? I stated that they were lied to. There's a big difference.

I don't think that I've really seen any remainers say that all leavers are thick racists.

That the leave side does contain people that are not the sharpest tools in the shed and who tend to disparage those of a different hue is pretty undeniable however saying that remainers say that all leavers are thick racists is a strawman designed to play into the state of permanent victimhood that many on the right seem to inhabit.

 

[anme]

Would you think that successive Labour Governments from the 1960s time period saw it in their political interests to be seen to totally and utterly remove themselves from any link to "The Days of Empire"?

I have no opinion on that. But I can certainly say that clinging on to "The Days of Empire" makes the UK look deluded, stupid, and frankly nasty, and trying to reassert that position in the future looks laughable - even more so given the decision to leave the EU.

Who, exactly, is looking to the UK to take more "leadership"? (that's not a question directed at you, Paul )

 

[dosxuk]

Strangely when I posted on results day (coincidentally!) that 50% of people have less than average intelligence, it was only leavers who got upset at that fact. The post made no mention of the referendum, it was almost as if they wanted to be called stupid so they could rally against it. Me (correctly) describing it as a fact only served to infuriate them more...

 

[anme]

Strangely when I posted on results day (coincidentally!) that 50% of people have less than average intelligence

This is actually not (necessarily) the case. Assuming we measure the intelligence of a person by the result of an IQ test, the average value is (sum of IQ values) / population.

Assume we have a very small island, with ten people. Nine people have an IQ of 100. There is also one genius with an IQ of 150. The average IQ level on the island is (1050 / 10) = 105. Notice that 9 people, i.e. 90% of the population of the island, have an IQ which is below the average, and just 10% of the population have an IQ above the average.

If we consider the world as a whole (or for leavers, just the UK), it's hard to say whether 50% of the population have an IQ less than average. That would depend on whether the population are evenly distributed above and below the average, i.e. for every person with an IQ of 101, there is a person with an IQ of 99; and for every person with an IQ of 140, there is a person with an IQ of 60, etc.

If you said that (almost) 50% of the population have an IQ below the median, you would be correct. In fact, in conventional IQ tests (*), 100 is defined as the median value. The median intelligence on our island above is 100.

(*) I don't necessarily advocate IQ tests as a good measure of intelligence.

 

[miami]

Average can refer to median or mean (or even mode)

 

[SteveP29]

I have no opinion on that. But I can certainly say that clinging on to "The Days of Empire" makes the UK look deluded, stupid, and frankly nasty, and trying to reassert that position in the future looks laughable - even more so given the decision to leave the EU.

Who, exactly, is looking to the UK to take more "leadership"? (that's not a question directed at you, Paul )

Usually world leaders give things to those 'below' them, like technology, fabricated structures (houses or components to make factories and their fixtures and fittings) etc, that's what makes them, you know, leaders.

Not a criticism of you or your post, but if we are to be world leaders, what have we to give to the world?

We've already given them our railways, energy and infrastructure construction, we make next to nothing that can be identifiably British, the things that we do make are under a foreign brand (Nissan, Honda etc)
We're not even world leaders in the worlds biggest spectator sport, or we'd have at least been in the world cup final a few times (how many English players play football abroad compared to the foreigners who play here?)

The UK leads the world in nothing but making money for a select group of already rich people, doesn't know how (and sometimes want) to tax its people and the companies that live and work here properly, say they want to make work pay, but can't find the jobs that do so (even if there is a surplus of jobs) and yet has a selection of the population who continually vote for the most unsuitable representatives who will never make their lives better or listen to their concerns

 

[burneside]

This post says a lot about the UK today.

That the Leave majority want that decision to be upheld?

 

[burneside]

Leavers simply don't care. In fact, they probably think it's a good thing that British people will find it harder to live and work elsewhere in the EU in the future. Leaving the UK is surely an unpatriotic act in their eyes.

What utter tosh.

 

[dosxuk]

This is actually not (necessarily) the case. Assuming we measure the intelligence of a person by the result of an IQ test, the average value is (sum of IQ values) / population.

There is more than one sort of average - that statement doesn't specify which, but it referring to the median.

If you got an entire population to take a very (impossibly so) accurate intelligence test (not necessarily IQ) and got them to line up in order of result, the median average would be the person in the middle of the line. The people before them (50% of the total) would be below the median intelligence score.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The acts to make countries like Canada and Hong Kong fully independent from Britain were passed in Thatcher's first term in office but did she initiate them or did she complete the work Callaghan had already started?

Callaghan's Labour government was in a later period of the 1970s whereas my posting referred to a period some ten years or more earlier in time when the Wilson Labour government was in power.

 

[anme]

That the Leave majority want that decision to be upheld?

That certain people do not understand the meaning of the following sentence: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Also, how can you speak for the "Leave majority"?

 

[anme]

What utter tosh.

I have never heard or read a leave supporter show any concern about the fact that living and working abroad is likely to become harder, perhaps much harder, for British people after leaving the EU - especially given the very hard brexit currently being sought by the government. Please explain why that is.

 

[burneside]

I have never heard or read a leave supporter show any concern about the fact that living and working abroad is likely to become harder, perhaps much harder, for British people after leaving the EU - especially given the very hard brexit currently being sought by the government. Please explain why that is.

You would have to ask them yourself. I personally couldn't care less if people wish to move away from the UK, that's their right.

 

[AlterEgo]

You would have to ask them yourself. I personally couldn't care less if people wish to move away from the UK, that's their right.

Except it looks like it won't be any more, will it?

 

[burneside]

That certain people do not understand the meaning of the following sentence: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Also, how can you speak for the "Leave majority"?

It was a simple question; stay in the EU, or leave. We voted to leave. If anybody was unsure what leave really meant then they should have voted to remain.

 

[burneside]

Except it looks like it won't be any more, will it?

People lived and worked in Europe, and the rest of the world, long before we joined the EEC. Some people have such short memories.

 

[EM2]

It was a simple question; stay in the EU, or leave. We voted to leave. If anybody was unsure what leave really meant then they should have voted to remain.

Nobody knew what Leave really meant (and that includes the Leave campaign), because there are so many variables.
Norwegian model?
Swiss model?
WTO?
£350m a week for the NHS?
Free movement?
No free movement?
Existing rights for EU citizens here enshrined?
Existing rights for UK citizens in the EU enshrined?

How can you vote for something when no-one can explain to you exactly what you'll get?

 

[DarloRich]

People lived and worked in Europe, and the rest of the world, long before we joined the EEC. Some people have such short memories.

Indeed - but not as part of a vast area with a right of free movement and residence for workers. You don't, currently, need a visa to work or live in Europe. You might after this decision.

You do seem to be one of the leavers keen to throw the baby, bath water, bath and the entire bathroom out of the the window.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It was a simple question; stay in the EU, or leave. We voted to leave. If anybody was unsure what leave really meant then they should have voted to remain.

But NOBODY was sure what leave really meant.

Some people were talking about leaving but wanting to stay in the single market and trying to get a deal like Switzerland etc.
Other people were talking about leaving everything, not being in the single market etc.
Other people were talking about leaving everything, not being in the single market and setting fire to every single EU based law or regulation that has been written into UK law.

Hell during the campaign, even Daniel Hannan, who was heavily involved with the leave campaign, specially said that "no-one is talking about leaving the single market".

 

[DarloRich]

But NOBODY was sure what leave really meant.

Some people were talking about leaving but wanting to stay in the single market and trying to get a deal like Switzerland etc.
Other people were talking about leaving everything, not being in the single market etc.
Other people were talking about leaving everything, not being in the single market and setting fire to every single EU based law or regulation that has been written into UK law.

Hell during the campaign, even Daniel Hannan, who was heavily involved with the leave campaign, specially said that "no-one is talking about leaving the single market".

Nobody knew what Leave really meant (and that includes the Leave campaign), because there are so many variables.
Norwegian model?
Swiss model?
WTO?
£350m a week for the NHS?
Free movement?
No free movement?
Existing rights for EU citizens here enshrined?
Existing rights for UK citizens in the EU enshrined?

How can you vote for something when no-one can explain to you exactly what you'll get?

But Brexit means a red white & blue Brexit

 

[miami]

Leave apparently means signing up for a TTIP that's better for the US and worse for the UK. It also means losing £180m a week before we even leave the EU, just based on 2015 balance of payments.

 

[burneside]

But Brexit means a red white & blue Brexit

Leaving the single market was mentioned many times during the campaign, it's all there if you care to search for it. For me, and I suspect a lot of leave voters, it also means no FoM and no contributions to the EU budget.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Leaving the single market was mentioned many times during the campaign, it's all there if you care to search for it. For me, and I suspect a lot of leave voters, it also means no FoM and no contributions to the EU budget.

And NOT leaving it was also mentioned by the leave campaign. its all there if you care to search for it.
For at least one leave voter I personally know, and I suspect a lot more, staying in the single market and accepting some degree of FoM was the sensible option.

So what do we believe?

 

[anme]

Leaving the single market was mentioned many times during the campaign, it's all there if you care to search for it. For me, and I suspect a lot of leave voters, it also means no FoM and no contributions to the EU budget.

Could you point to that on the ballot paper? After all, countries outside the EU contribute to the EU and benefit from freedom of movement - for example Norway, as was widely mentioned by the Leave campaign http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/591988/Nigel-Farage-EU-European-Union-Ukip .

Out of interest, why do you think that British people should lose freedom of movement rights? Which other rights would you personally like to give up?

 

[AlterEgo]

People lived and worked in Europe, and the rest of the world, long before we joined the EEC. Some people have such short memories.

That is not in any way the same as having the *right* to.