EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

but the idea that going from 17 to 18 suddenly makes you mature enough to vote is laughable.

Surely for any vote there must be children who are too young to vote by just a few days or even would be old enough to vote if the vote was held on a Friday instead of a Thursday.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely for any vote there must be children who are too young to vote by just a few days or even would be old enough to vote if the vote was held on a Friday instead of a Thursday.

As I said, there always has to be a cut off.
I was more commenting on Johnuk123's mention of "immature children".

 

[Johnuk123]

Surely for any vote there must be children who are too young to vote by just a few days or even would be old enough to vote if the vote was held on a Friday instead of a Thursday.

Obviously, but you have to have a cut off point somewhere.

 

[Johnuk123]

As I said, there always has to be a cut off.
I was more commenting on Johnuk123's mention of "immature children".

Children are immature it comes with the territory if they weren't we would let them be brain surgeons and fly 747's.
Some may be more mature than others but that's not the point.

 

[Domh245]

Children are immature it comes with the territory if they weren't we would let them be brain surgeons and fly 747's.
Some may be more mature than others but that's not the point.

That same statement is valid for many adults as well...

 

[Johnuk123]

That same statement is valid for many adults as well...

Very true but you have to have a cut off point and adults are officially deemed to be mature although plenty aren't.

 

[northwichcat]

Obviously, but you have to have a cut off point somewhere.

Yes but it's what makes a 'once in a lifetime' referendum difficult. You can say to a 17 year old who doesn't like the Conservative government that they have an opportunity to change that no later than May 2020. However, what if they understand the implications of leaving and remaining more than some 21 year olds do but never get the chance to vote on EU membership? They could feel hard done by.

 

[Johnuk123]

Yes but it's what makes a 'once in a lifetime' referendum difficult. You can say to a 17 year old who doesn't like the Conservative government that they have an opportunity to change that no later than May 2020. However, what if they understand the implications of leaving and remaining more than some 21 year olds do but never get the chance to vote on EU membership? They could feel hard done by.

There are a lot of things in life that people feel hard done by, what should be done get them to sit a test on the EU to see how informed they are with the thicko's being told they can't vote.

 

[me123]

There are a lot of things in life that people feel hard done by, what should be done get them to sit a test on the EU to see how informed they are with the thicko's being told they can't vote.

Of course, the Daily Mail readership would be branded "thickos" (to use your terminology) because they believe the drivel ("alternative facts") that gets printed by Dacre and co. So I'd predict that your suggestion would have led to a different result in the referendum.

 

[EM2]

Don't you think there is a sound and logical reason that immature children aren't allowed to vote ?

Absolutely. But you asked who were 'the significant number of people who will be affected by this vote but weren't allowed to vote themselves'. I merely pointed out two such groups.

 

[Railops]

Of course, the Daily Mail readership would be branded "thickos" (to use your terminology) because they believe the drivel ("alternative facts") that gets printed by Dacre and co. So I'd predict that your suggestion would have led to a different result in the referendum.

The more people like you continually bang on about Leavers all being stupid the more you make yourself look totally ridiculous and terrible terrible losers.

 

[dosxuk]

Absolutely. But you asked who were 'the significant number of people who will be affected by this vote but weren't allowed to vote themselves'. I merely pointed out two such groups.

To be fair, you are asking a leave voter to think of someone other than themselves.

 

[dosxuk]

The more people like you continually bang on about Leavers all being stupid the more you make yourself look totally ridiculous and terrible terrible losers.

Is now a good time to remind you about Mr Farage blaming the loss of the referendum, weeks in advance, on the Government extending the deadline for voter registration.

 

[Trog]

Of course, the Daily Mail readership would be branded "thickos" (to use your terminology) because they believe the drivel ("alternative facts") that gets printed by Dacre and co. So I'd predict that your suggestion would have led to a different result in the referendum.

Conversely older voters are more likely to take the matter seriously read the course work, pass the exam and qualify to vote. So as they seem to have been keener on out, it could have made the result the same but more so.

 

[dosxuk]

Conversely older voters are more likely to take the matter seriously read the course work, pass the exam and qualify to vote. So as they seem to have been keener on out, it could have made the result the same but more so.

There'd be a lot less people going on about £350m if they all understood the facts.

 

[northwichcat]

There are a lot of things in life that people feel hard done by, what should be done get them to sit a test on the EU to see how informed they are with the thicko's being told they can't vote.

When I was 17 I got 105/120 (87.5%) on a Politics & The Economy paper for the General Studies A Level. My Sixth Form didn't do lessons for General Studies - it was a case of if you want to do the exam you can but other than telling you how many papers, what topic each paper is on and the dates and times of the examinations you'll get no more support.

I wonder how many of the people who were aged 18 or over at the time could have sat down and got at least 88% on the same paper. If anything getting good marks is harder as you get older as you are expected to give valid arguments for both sides and then come to a conclusion, not give your conclusion and then arguments to support it.

I've just searched to see if the A Level paper I did is available anyway online but isn't.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Conversely older voters are more likely to take the matter seriously read the course work, pass the exam and qualify to vote. So as they seem to have been keener on out, it could have made the result the same but more so.

But if there was an exam on it to qualify to vote, then those people would have actually know the facts rather than the lies and myths that many people voted on!

note - I certainly do not support a test for any democratic vote. Such thinking is often used to stop people from exercising their right to vote (indeed voter suppression has already been a big deal in the US and it looks like will become even worse over the next four years).

 

[me123]

The more people like you continually bang on about Leavers all being stupid the more you make yourself look totally ridiculous and terrible terrible losers.

But I didn't call the leavers stupid, did I? I stated that they were lied to. There's a big difference.

 

[me123]

Conversely older voters are more likely to take the matter seriously read the course work, pass the exam and qualify to vote. So as they seem to have been keener on out, it could have made the result the same but more so.

But surely the younger voters are the ones who have recently, and are still taking exams. They know how to study for exams. Compare to the older population, who may not have taken an exam for the past 20+ years (as they'd have had no need to). They may have the intelligence to pass the test, but may underperform on the grounds that they are out of the habit of studying and lack the exam technique.

 

[Trog]

Older people will have been through the mill, they know that for things like this you read the notes and give the expected answers, even if you don't believe a word of it.

There seems to be a tendency for younger people not to be willing to take the trouble to spend ten minutes on voting. Add in an exam which would presumably have to be quite short so everybody would have a chance to do it, so say half an hour to do twenty or so multiple choice questions on another day, and even more of them will probably not bother. Older retired people are more likely to have the time to take the exam, and tend to see voting as an obligation, so I still think an exam could bias things towards the older viewpoint.

 

[anme]

What about younger people who might want to retire in the EU in 20, 30 or more years in the future?

Leavers simply don't care. In fact, they probably think it's a good thing that British people will find it harder to live and work elsewhere in the EU in the future. Leaving the UK is surely an unpatriotic act in their eyes.

 

[anme]

If we leave the EU in name only and nothing changes then that is not leaving the EU at all. Thankfully May and the government appear to be of the mind that things will change, and change in a big way. The whole point of voting leave, really.

Do you remember all the talk before the referendum of the "Norwegian" model? In fact, I asked here maybe fifty times what the plan was after leaving, and the only two replies I ever received from leavers both referred to that model, and not the isolationist position May is now taking.

It is *a lie* to say Norwegian model is contradictory to the referendum result.

 

[anme]

And yet, Farage suggested following the model of countries that do almost exactly that might be a good idea:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/591988/Nigel-Farage-EU-European-Union-Ukip

Norway:
Member of European Economic Area, full access to single market, obliged to make a financial contribution and accept majority of EU laws, free movement applies as it does in the EU

Norway is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA) - the single market - along with the 28 current EU members, Liechtenstein and Iceland.
In return for that access to the single market, it pays a contribution to the EU budget and has to sign up to all the rules of the club - including its common regulations and standards.
People from across the EU are free to live and work in Norway too, but the country is exempt from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs. The downside for Norway is that it has no say over how the rules of the single market are created.

Switzerland:
Member of the European Free Trade Association but not the EEA, access to EU market governed by series of bilateral agreements, covers some but not all areas of trade, also makes a financial contribution but smaller than Norway's, doesn't have a general duty to apply EU laws but does have to implement some EU regulations to enable trade, free movement applies

Switzerland has a free trade agreement with the EU and a number of agreements which give it access to the single market for most of its industries.
But it does not have full access to the single market for its banking sector and other parts of the services sector, which together make up almost 80% of the UK economy.
Its agreement also requires the free movement of people.

Iceland did everything that Farage doesn't want, so can't imagine that that would be a model that he would be happy for the UK to follow.

Worth quoting all this again. It shows just how dishonest the current discussion is.

 

[anme]

If we "leave" the EU but retain the "four freedoms" then we haven't left the EU at all, and the vote last June might as well not have happened. I really don't think 17.4 million who voted leave will countenance that outcome.

This post says a lot about the UK today.

 

[anme]

The more people like you continually bang on about Leavers all being stupid the more you make yourself look totally ridiculous and terrible terrible losers.

Have you read this forum?!

 

[dosxuk]

Have you read this forum?!

Here's pretty civilised and sensible. For a proper look at the leavers more, erm, unstable side, look at the comments section on any BBC News article that could remotely be attributed to Europe or Brexit.

 

[Senex]

Today's Guardian quotes thus from May:
"May will tell Republicans: “The United Kingdom is by instinct and history a great, global nation that recognises its responsibilities to the world. And as we end our membership of the European Union – as the British people voted with determination and quiet resolve to do last year – we have the opportunity to reassert our belief in a confident, sovereign and global Britain, ready to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike.
“So as we rediscover our confidence together – as you renew your nation just as we renew ours – we have the opportunity, indeed the responsibility, to renew the special relationship for this new age. We have the opportunity to lead, together, again.”

Did we vote "with determination and quiet resolve" to leave the EU, or is that more of the Tory hard Brexit language that totally ignores the views of nearly half of those who voted and of the "Remain" majorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland?

And what do others think of "We have the opportunity to lead, together, again"? Is this Britain harking back yet again to a war that ended more than 70 years ago and Tories clinging on to their memories of imperial grandeur, or can Britain seriously be seen as a potential world leader and partner with the USA?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Leavers simply don't care. In fact, they probably think it's a good thing that British people will find it harder to live and work elsewhere in the EU in the future. Leaving the UK is surely an unpatriotic act in their eyes.

Is that including the leavers who themselves have retired in the EU :lol

 

[dosxuk]

And what do others think of "We have the opportunity to lead, together, again"? Is this Britain harking back yet again to a war that ended more than 70 years ago and Tories clinging on to their memories of imperial grandeur, or can Britain seriously be seen as a potential world leader and partner with the USA?

And yet we were being told that a vote to leave the EU was a vote against globalisation and putting our interests first four once, not a chance to join the US.

If we want to be global leaders, we should be doing that by working with our neighbours, not by building walls and isolating ourselves.

 

[anme]

Today's Guardian quotes thus from May:
"May will tell Republicans: “The United Kingdom is by instinct and history a great, global nation that recognises its responsibilities to the world. And as we end our membership of the European Union – as the British people voted with determination and quiet resolve to do last year – we have the opportunity to reassert our belief in a confident, sovereign and global Britain, ready to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike.
“So as we rediscover our confidence together – as you renew your nation just as we renew ours – we have the opportunity, indeed the responsibility, to renew the special relationship for this new age. We have the opportunity to lead, together, again.”

Did we vote "with determination and quiet resolve" to leave the EU, or is that more of the Tory hard Brexit language that totally ignores the views of nearly half of those who voted and of the "Remain" majorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland?

And what do others think of "We have the opportunity to lead, together, again"? Is this Britain harking back yet again to a war that ended more than 70 years ago and Tories clinging on to their memories of imperial grandeur, or can Britain seriously be seen as a potential world leader and partner with the USA?

Frankly this makes the British look ridiculous in the eyes of the world. It shows that the UK still didn't get over the loss of its empire and still doesn't understand that imperialism is considered a bad thing by most people across the world (many of whom have been subjected to imperialism themselves in one form or another).

And this sucking up to the US is demeaning, is it not?