Warrington to Manchester Season Ticket

[ian9393]

Hi

I am about to move to Warrington and commute back over to Tameside. I have found that I can get a Greater Manchester traincard for £78 a month. If I combine this with a Season ticket from Warrington to Glazebrook (the first stop in Greater Manchester at £64.90 a month according to National Rail season ticket calculator) my monthly cost would be £142.90.

The National Rail season ticket calculator tells me a monthly pass direct from Warrington would be £189 so by getting two tickets I will save £46 a month.

But.... Is this allowed? Does anyone out there currently do this?

Also, does anyone know how packed the peak time trains are from Warrington to Piccadilly? Would there be any chance of getting on with a bike?!

Grateful for any advice!

Ian

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:???: Don't see why that wouldn't be allowed. After all, a "Greater Manchester Traincard" is just a rail season ticket that happens to be between any two stations in Greater Manchester.

However, one possible problem that you would then effectively have a combination of season tickets, and you will need to check whether you are restricted to travelling only on those services which stop at the point that one or the other season tickets continues, i.e. at Glazebrook. (Perhaps someone could confirm their interpretation of NR CofC 19).

Otherwise this means that you wouldn't be able to travel on any of the semi-fast trains, nor travel to/from Warrington Bank Quay (instead of Warrington Central).

Can't answer the question on bikes. Reckon that the peak trains on this line would be definitely be rather busy. (They were 20 years ago when I used to travel on this line!) Anyone else know?

 

[mathmo]

Peak trains from Bank Quay are pretty busy I believe. Are you intending to go from Bank Quay or Central, or don't you mind?

 

[glynn80]

Hi

I am about to move to Warrington and commute back over to Tameside. I have found that I can get a Greater Manchester traincard for £78 a month. If I combine this with a Season ticket from Warrington to Glazebrook (the first stop in Greater Manchester at £64.90 a month according to National Rail season ticket calculator) my monthly cost would be £142.90.

The National Rail season ticket calculator tells me a monthly pass direct from Warrington would be £189 so by getting two tickets I will save £46 a month.

But.... Is this allowed? Does anyone out there currently do this?

Also, does anyone know how packed the peak time trains are from Warrington to Piccadilly? Would there be any chance of getting on with a bike?!

Grateful for any advice!

Ian

What you are attempting is allowed BUT only if the service you are catching stops at Glazebrook.

The reasons for this are outline in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

So basically because your Greater Manchester traincard is subsidised by Greater Manchester PTE it is ineligible to be used under "condition c)" in point 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and has to be used under "condition b)" and thus the train has to call at Glazebrook.

 

[scrapy]

Peak trains from Bank Quay are pretty busy I believe. Are you intending to go from Bank Quay or Central, or don't you mind?

They are just as busy at Central and you may struggle with a bike particularly on EMT services.

As for breaking your season ticket at Glazebrook. You are then restricted only to services which stop there. There are hourly/half hourly services in the peaks, with an hourly evening service, however only a two hourly service for much of the day. If you are unableto get on with a bike on the service you want due to overcrowding, you may face a long wait.

Whist it is normally possible to get on with a bike on local services from Warrington to Manchester, it only takes the cancellation of a previous TPE or EMT or the short formation of a 4 car Northern service to change this. Under Northerns cycle policy 2 cycles per train, however extra cycles are carred at the conductors discretion. The conductor may also refuse any cycle on safety grounds, which means you cannot always get two on a full train - particulaly the ex Arriva 142's.

 

[dan_atki]

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

I'm going to be potentially awkward now and open a can of worms and I'll attempt to argue this from a passenger's perspective.

There will be two tickets:
Warrington to Glazebrook - normal Monthly Season
GMPTE Traincard - Monthly Season issued on behalf of GMPTE.

By condition 19c) this means that the first ticket is classed as a season ticket (it is not on behalf of a PTE or LA) by the condition and the second isn't (as it is on behalf of a PTE).

Condition 19c) requires that no more than one ticket is a season ticket by the definition it includes and that is what will be held, so in my interpretation of the condition it wouldn't be necessary for the train to stop at Glazebrook with this combination of tickets.

Obviously, I accept some on-train staff won't accept it as it is 'two season tickets' but I think carrying a copy of the NRCoC and be prepared to argue the case slightly will be fine.

 

[glynn80]

I'm going to be potentially awkward now and open a can of worms and I'll attempt to argue this from a passenger's perspective.

There will be two tickets:
Warrington to Glazebrook - normal Monthly Season
GMPTE Traincard - Monthly Season issued on behalf of GMPTE.

By condition 19c) this means that the first ticket is classed as a season ticket (it is not on behalf of a PTE or LA) by the condition and the second isn't (as it is on behalf of a PTE).

Condition 19c) requires that no more than one ticket is a season ticket by the definition it includes and that is what will be held, so in my interpretation of the condition it wouldn't be necessary for the train to stop at Glazebrook with this combination of tickets.

Obviously, I accept some on-train staff won't accept it as it is 'two season tickets' but I think carrying a copy of the NRCoC and be prepared to argue the case slightly will be fine.

I agree with you, I hadn't really thought of the other season ticket. I think it is pretty clear that as long as one of the ticket is a non-PTE season then the train does not need to stop!

Although thinking about it, what constitutes a PTE season, is it a season for travel wholly within the PTE area?

UPDATE:
A Greater Manchester season ticket is a season ticket between two named stations within the Greater Manchester ticketing area, it:
• costs less than five peak return tickets;
• gives you unlimited travel between two named stations at any time of the day from Monday to Friday;
• gives you unlimited travel anywhere in the Greater Manchester ticketing area at weekends and public holidays; and
• is available for children at approximately half the adult fare.

 

[mathmo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bank Quay - Piccadilly trains don't go through Glazebrook (use a different line to Manchester), so that means this combination would only be valid from Central?

 

[glynn80]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bank Quay - Piccadilly trains don't go through Glazebrook (use a different line to Manchester), so that means this combination would only be valid from Central?

Bank Quay to Piccadilly trains usually go via Deansgate and Eccles, so the season would not be valid on services going via that route. But seeing as their only every hour as opposed to two an hour from Central its probably not that much of an issue.

 

[ian9393]

Firstly, Wow, what a great forum - 5 well considered replies already, I just wish other web forums were as useful as this!

Secondly, I had a feeling it wouldn't be all that straightforward (!). I have done this buying two tickets thing before when travelling from Manchester to Lichfield (saved about £10 by splitting at Stafford) and never had any problems even when the train didn't stop at Stafford. But, the last thing I want to do is get into an argument with the conductor on my way to work. The trains that stop at Glazebrook terminate at Oxford Road and are pretty slow so that's not a good option really.

I think I might try my original plan out for a week and see how I get on. My other alternative option (I'll consider everything before driving it!) is to ride my bike to Glazebrook and get my cheap GMPTE ticket from there. It'd get me fit if nothing else.

I'll you know how I get on!

Cheers

 

[John_158]

It all depends on the Guard but the Genral ammount of Guards are ok as youve got a Valid Ticket but My advise would be to ither use the Arriva Trains Wales Service from Warrington Ban Quay or the FTPE service from Central.

One thing though is the National Rail Conditions of Carrige from what i read only says a combination of two Tickets can be used for any single journey but doesn't say anything about the ticket type from what i have read.

Also if nessasary to travel with a bike then you should really travel by train earlier than what you need to in order to be able to get on with your bike.

 

[clagmonster]

I think under clause 19 you are valid on trains not stopping at Glazebrook. The GM traincard is a GMPTE product, and hence you have one NR season, and a PTE pass, which is not a NR season.

 

[John_158]

A few ways to sum it all up is :-If they Want People to Abide By Rules Then Run Trains Properly Not 4 Carriages one day then two the next etc and also make the Rules them :-

A-Enforceable
B-Understandable
C-Enforce All The Rules not just the odd one or two

Oh and another thing get those PCSOs off there back sides and do something useful like assist with overcrowding and things like that not pick on enthusiasts.

 

[dan_atki]

One thing though is the National Rail Conditions of Carrige from what i read only says a combination of two Tickets can be used for any single journey but doesn't say anything about the ticket type from what i have read.

Condition 19 re Splitting tickets like this is quoted in a reply above. For the combination to be valid certain conditions must be adhered to as stated in the NRCoC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would see the Traincard as a PTE product and thus valid on all services via Glazebrook, regardless of stopping pattern, but I would advise that you contact EMT/FTPE/Northern to confirm it. If you have it in writting, even the most picky of guards would have a hard time questioning it.

....but My advise would be to ither use the Arriva Trains Wales Service from Warrington Ban Quay or the FTPE service from Central....

It would not be valid on the Arriva services as they do not pass through Glazebrook. The ticket must be valid for the journey you are making, by getting the Arriva service your journey would be Warrington-Patricroft-Manchester, The Warrington-Glazebrook ticket would not cover you to Patricroft (GMPTE Border)

For the combination to be valid on Arriva services it would have to be a ticket from Warrington to Patricroft that is held in addition to the traincard, which would of course mean that it would not be valid on EMT/FTPE/Northern services from Warrington Central.

 

[PhilipW]

How complicated. How many travelling members of the public will understand all these rules ? 1 in 1000 (if that) I would guess.

 

[glynn80]

I'm going to be potentially awkward now and open a can of worms and I'll attempt to argue this from a passenger's perspective.

There will be two tickets:
Warrington to Glazebrook - normal Monthly Season
GMPTE Traincard - Monthly Season issued on behalf of GMPTE.

By condition 19c) this means that the first ticket is classed as a season ticket (it is not on behalf of a PTE or LA) by the condition and the second isn't (as it is on behalf of a PTE).

Condition 19c) requires that no more than one ticket is a season ticket by the definition it includes and that is what will be held, so in my interpretation of the condition it wouldn't be necessary for the train to stop at Glazebrook with this combination of tickets.

Obviously, I accept some on-train staff won't accept it as it is 'two season tickets' but I think carrying a copy of the NRCoC and be prepared to argue the case slightly will be fine.

Sorry to bring this up again but a similar issue has arisen on uk.r whereby the OP had a season ticket from London to Stafford and then a season ticket from Stafford to Manchester, he asked whether that basically constituted having a London to Manchester season ie. the train did not need to stop in Stafford. Most people replied he couldn't as their interpretation of 19c)-

c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive orlocal authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not


So that rule is basically saying that only "one" of the tickets being combined is allowed to be a season when using 19c) and the other tickets being combined with it "are not" allowed to be seasons.

So I am now stating it is NOT valid!

 

[dan_atki]

This is a tough one - I said in my post above that the GMPTE 'season' is NOT actually a season based solely on the definition in 19c) and as such only one season will be held...

Again it is a sorry state of affairs when you can interpret the rules how you want to fit the situation!

 

[clagmonster]

Glynn, in the case of the Manchester example, I agree that the Stafford split is not valid on trains not calling at Stafford, as they are both NR seasons.
However, in Glazebrook case, the traincard is a GMPTE product, not a standard point to point NR season, therefore I think the ticket counts as a ticket issued on behalf of a PTE, thereofre meaning only one season is held. Therefore the split is valid.

 

[glynn80]

Glynn, in the case of the Manchester example, I agree that the Stafford split is not valid on trains not calling at Stafford, as they are both NR seasons.
However, in Glazebrook case, the traincard is a GMPTE product, not a standard point to point NR season, therefore I think the ticket counts as a ticket issued on behalf of a PTE, thereofre meaning only one season is held. Therefore the split is valid.

If we break 19 c) down we get the following:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive orlocal authority)

or a leisure travel pass

and the other ticket(s) is/are not

So the first part of the condition is saying that one of the tickets in the combination is a season but that the one season in the combination cannot be a season for the purpose of being the season in the combination.

The next part is irrelvant because neither ticket is a leisure pass

The last part is broken away from the first and second by the word "and" and is stating the the other ticket is not a season, now the condition that a season cannot be a PTE season was for the purpose of establishing it in the first part.

If they were to mean that PTE seasons can form part of the combination then that would come at the end of the sentence rather than after the first part, as the leisure travel pass is defined.

I am informed that the purpose of the concession is to allow season ticket holders to extend their journey without pointlessly paying for the bit they've already paid for- for example, for a season ticket holder from MKC to EUS to be able to travel to Manchester on a non-stop train from Euston using an MKC-MAN ticket. It's not there to allow people to play the
system by combining tickets to save money and the FRPP seems to confirm this with the following:

Two or more Season Tickets - examples of NRCoC clause 17 (b)

Customers may use two or more Season Tickets for their total journey provided trains used call at station(s) where they change from one Season Ticket to another.

Example

A customer with a Northampton to Berkhamsted Season Ticket and Berkhamsted to Watford Junction Season Ticket may only travel from Northampton to Watford Junction on trains that stop at Berkhamsted.

 

[clagmonster]

I see what your saying, but still don't agree. In fact, I would say this is due to poor wording, although saying that, I would, no doubt, struggle to do better.
The traincard is a GMPTE product, therefore issued on behalf of a PTE, therefore, taking the workig of the NCOC, for this purpose is not counted as a season. Therefore, excluding tickets issued on behalf of a PTE, there is exactly one season, and one non-season, so it is a valid combination. Whether it is intended as such, is not the point, but if there were several cases of passengers using such combinations, I suppose the wording may well change in a future version of the NCOC.