EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

A very good post. However, I doubt that May will 'concentrate' on the NHS - she's denying everything and obviously won't do anything good for it. Like you and Brexit, I will proudly doff my proverbial cap if I'm wrong here - but I'm pretty confident that I'm not.

I was thinking if the NHS is in "meltdown" public opinion will force her to do something - make it an election prority - and maybe shuffle Brexit down the running order. No good keeping out Portugeuse if you can't get seen to in A+E in Preston.

 

[backontrack]

I was thinking if the NHS is in "meltdown" public opinion will force her to do something - make it an election prority - and maybe shuffle Brexit down the running order. No good keeping out Portugeuse if you can't get seen to in A+E in Preston.

Maybe, but it'd be to good an opportunity to sell the whole thing off for the Govt. to miss. I mean, Jeremy Hunt's literally written the book about privatizing the NHS in a pamphlet he once wrote.

 

[Howardh]

Maybe, but it'd be to good an opportunity to sell the whole thing off for the Govt. to miss. I mean, Jeremy Hunt's literally written the book about privatizing the NHS in a pamphlet he once wrote.

Can we actually charge people to use certain parts of it? We should certainly charge time-wasters; ie those who don't turn up for appointments. Your health log should contain a credit-card number which is charged!
OK, there are flaws in that, many don't have bank cards at all, and there could be genuine reasons for missing (ie I missed one for mum because - of her mental agility I couldn't get her into the car, she was too scared) so everyone could be allowed one per year.

Or something.

R/e mum, the doctor and nurses now come to her, which I'm grateful for.

 

[NSEFAN]

Can we actually charge people to use certain parts of it? We should certainly charge time-wasters; ie those who don't turn up for appointments. Your health log should contain a credit-card number which is charged!
OK, there are flaws in that, many don't have bank cards at all, and there could be genuine reasons for missing (ie I missed one for mum because - of her mental agility I couldn't get her into the car, she was too scared) so everyone could be allowed one per year.

Or something.

R/e mum, the doctor and nurses now come to her, which I'm grateful for.

What I don't understand is that, if the NHS simply needs more money, why can't the government just increase the NI contribution? Any business that's struggling would do the same, so why is the NHS any different in that regard? I'd be happy with an increase if it meant the NHS wasn't being chocked to death.

 

[northwichcat]

We should certainly charge time-wasters; ie those who don't turn up for appointments.

In theory that's a good idea but in practice someone might miss an appointment because they have a medical problem affecting their memory and until they attend more appointments they aren't officially diagnosed with one, so implementing it would end up being like ATOS Origin and the tests to check if disabled people can go back to work.

 

[ainsworth74]

We do have a thread running on the NHS in this very sub-forum so can I ask that we continue this discussion there please?

Many thanks!

 

[Domh245]

Just re-read the first 15 pages or so of this thread. A few points:

1) I really wish that I'd stayed up and watched it unfold. I couldn't, because it was a school night, but people were talking a lot about how riveting it was to watch. Seeing the results neck and neck - it looked like a nailed-on Brexit after Kettering, yet Remain were leading at Lambeth - and then suddenly the pound tanking to its 1985 level must have been exciting. Domh245 and TheKnightWho's commentary (among others' posts) formed part of that. As Domh said...

On the other hand, it seems that when I've stayed up to watch election results come in, it's not exactly been a particularly pleasant experience, having personally preferred (or at least massively disliked) the winning sides in the EU referendum and the US election. I did feel sorry for my friend whose family are likely to be more affected than most by Brexit who woke up, saw the bad news, and then had to go and sit a Maths A level paper.

I suppose I'll sleep through the next set of election results, but I don't think that there are any particularly interesting ones (at least not on the level of trump or Brexit)

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Currently a lot of people born outside the EU can claim dual nationality of two countries e.g. Brazil+Portugal, UK+Hong Kong, UK+Canada, Mexico+Spain etc. That may result in a Brazilian coming to the UK with an EU passport (issued by Portugal) but it also might result in a Canadian going to Germany with an EU passport (issued by the UK.) I'm sure UKIP would be quick to point out leaving means the Brazilian would have to go elsewhere (unless they are a qualified person who we need in the UK.) However, what if all the people from countries like Hong Kong and Canada whose first choice would be to live elsewhere in Europe moved to the UK instead? How would that affect net migration?

You can t get a Portuguese passport just like that. And I assure you that the Portuguese border service, who handles that, are as nice as the british home office. You can get a Portuguese passport, without having resided in Portugal if your parents or Grandparents are Portuguese and this is how the smashing majority of Brazilians (and Indians) get theirs

 

[PHILIPE]

On the other hand, it seems that when I've stayed up to watch election results come in, it's not exactly been a particularly pleasant experience, having personally preferred (or at least massively disliked) the winning sides in the EU referendum and the US election. I did feel sorry for my friend whose family are likely to be more affected than most by Brexit who woke up, saw the bad news, and then had to go and sit a Maths A level paper.

I suppose I'll sleep through the next set of election results, but I don't think that there are any particularly interesting ones (at least not on the level of trump or Brexit)

How do you know Brexit was bad news ? It's merely your'e opinion not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

 

[backontrack]

How do you know Brexit was bad news ? It's merely your'e opinion not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

How do you know Brexit was good news? It's merely your opinion, not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

 

[PHILIPE]

How do you know Brexit was good news? It's merely your opinion, not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

Agreed. Will just have to wait and see

 

[Domh245]

How do you know Brexit was bad news ? It's merely your'e opinion not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

I suppose that you're right, until we actually leave the EU with whatever deal we're allowed by the EU it is just Brexit. However, my friend had been telling me about what might happen for him in the event of a harder Brexit, which is what it looks like Mrs May is angling for (and not an unreasonable assumption for what leaving the EU is amid the chaos of the events of the 24th.

 

[northwichcat]

Front page of The Observer this morning says 75% of people would rather have the Conservatives handling Brexit over Labour. However, that doesn't mean everyone asked wants Brexit or that 75% of people think the Conservatives handling it is the best option, only that 75% would prefer the current option over one alternative.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Front page of The Observer this morning says 75% of people would rather have the Conservatives handling Brexit over Labour. However, that doesn't mean everyone asked wants Brexit or that 75% of people think the Conservatives handling it is the best option, only that 75% would prefer the current option over one alternative.

Would that be because the "one alternative" is the Corbyn-led one.

Incidentally, is the opposite of a Brexiteer a Bremainer?

 

[northwichcat]

Would that be because the "one alternative" is the Corbyn-led one.

Well the options were May led Conservative Party or Corbyn led Labour Party. No option for parties working together.

Incidentally, is the opposite of a Brexiteer a Bremainer?

A left-wing Romanian newspaper came up with the term Remainian for people in the UK who voted Remain.

 

[Domh245]

Would that be because the "one alternative" is the Corbyn-led one.

It is quite interesting to observe the Corbyn Effect. Yesterday we saw a ComRes poll that said more people would trust Theresa May and the Conservatives to manage the NHS better than Corbyn and Labour. But an earlier YouGov poll that just asks about Labour/Conservatives has the expected result of Labour leading the Conservatives.

 

[northwichcat]

How do you know Brexit was bad news ? It's merely your'e opinion not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

Some people have already lost their jobs as a result of the uncertainty created by the Brexit vote, while the value of the pound has dropped. Brexit has an uphill task if it's going to reverse the negative effects of the vote and then make things better than they were before the vote (which was already worse than they were in 2007.)

 

[dosxuk]

How do you know Brexit was bad news ? It's merely your'e opinion not a fact.
That is still to be proved.

It's not opinion that we are going to lose the benefits of being in the EU by leaving. If you do, or wish to in the future, take advantage of those benefits, then that's bad news for you.

Even if your only interaction with the EU is to go on holiday to Spain, if you fancy using your mobile data while there, Brexit is bad news.

Yeah, the end financial state of the country might not be as bad as the experts predicted, but that doesn't automatically make leaving a good thing. Having shot ourselves in the foot, we're now hoping for the doctor to say "the good news is we didn't have to cut your leg off, and you should be fine using crutches for the rest of your life".

 

[furnessvale]

Some people have already lost their jobs as a result of the uncertainty created by the Brexit vote, while the value of the pound has dropped. Brexit has an uphill task if it's going to reverse the negative effects of the vote and then make things better than they were before the vote (which was already worse than they were in 2007.)

Indeed, some people have lost their jobs and the fashion is to blame Brexit. I believe Jamie Oliver closed 6 restaurants blaming Brexit. Nothing to do with overpriced rubbish food apparently!

Of course other jobs are being created but that seems to be portrayed as "despite" Brexit.

 

[bramling]

Some people have already lost their jobs as a result of the uncertainty created by the Brexit vote, while the value of the pound has dropped. Brexit has an uphill task if it's going to reverse the negative effects of the vote and then make things better than they were before the vote (which was already worse than they were in 2007.)

That assumes everything would have stayed the same had Britain chosen remain, which is not a given by any means. Some people chose leave because they see a Europe being dragged down by the EU, especially economically, waiting to fall like a pack of cards.

 

[northwichcat]

It's not opinion that we are going to lose the benefits of being in the EU by leaving. If you do, or wish to in the future, take advantage of those benefits, then that's bad news for you.

Even if your only interaction with the EU is to go on holiday to Spain, if you fancy using your mobile data while there, Brexit is bad news.

Yeah, the end financial state of the country might not be as bad as the experts predicted, but that doesn't automatically make leaving a good thing. Having shot ourselves in the foot, we're now hoping for the doctor to say "the good news is we didn't have to cut your leg off, and you should be fine using crutches for the rest of your life".

Spain wanted to introduce a 'congestion charge' for cars passing through the town of La Linea on their way to Gibraltar. The EU said they'd consider that to be a border crossing charge which isn't permitted when crossing a border from one EU country to another. However, Gibraltar is a UK territory so once the UK leaves the EU Spain can introduce the charge without being told by the EU that it can't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That assumes everything would have stayed the same had Britain chosen remain, which is not a given by any means. Some people chose leave because they see a Europe being dragged down by the EU, especially economically, waiting to fall like a pack of cards.

And yet despite the weak economies of countries like Greece the value of the Pound compared to the Euro has never recovered to it's 2007 rate. Maybe in the unlikely event of the German economy collapsing the Pound would recover to it's 2007 rate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, some people have lost their jobs and the fashion is to blame Brexit. I believe Jamie Oliver closed 6 restaurants blaming Brexit. Nothing to do with overpriced rubbish food apparently!

Of course other jobs are being created but that seems to be portrayed as "despite" Brexit.

In my area the companies who have reduced staffing levels have seen highly qualified staff being made redundant who then can't get the jobs created because they are low skilled minimum wage jobs for which they are seen as overqualified. A new ASDA store (which has been in the planning for years) doesn't want highly qualified IT and engineering professionals even if their new store creates a couple of hundred jobs.

 

[gareth950]

Looks like Theresa May will set out her intentions on Tuesday to crash the economy and break up the UK. If Nicola Sturgeon said now, Wales and Ireland, come and join us in Scotland to form a new union and leave England to it, I'd put my cross in the relevant box tomorrow.

Why should the whole of the UK be brought to its knees just because May is pandering to extreme English right wing nationalism fuelled by UKIP? Has she forgotten that she is the PM of the whole of the UK and not just England?

 

[Domh245]

Looks like Theresa May will set out her intentions on Tuesday to crash the economy and break up the UK. If Nicola Sturgeon said now, Wales and Ireland, come and join us in Scotland to form a new union and leave England to it, I'd put my cross in the relevant box tomorrow.

Why should the whole of the UK be brought to its knees just because May is pandering to extreme English right wing nationalism fuelled by UKIP? Has she forgotten that she is the PM of the whole of the UK and not just England?

Because of the way that parliamentary elections work and the fact that Labour are doing whatever it is they are doing at the moment. May going for a hard Brexit approach is most likely to win them the 2020 election. Remember it's party before country...

 

[gareth950]

Because of the way that parliamentary elections work and the fact that Labour are doing whatever it is they are doing at the moment. May going for a hard Brexit approach is most likely to win them the 2020 election. Remember it's party before country...

How could she win the 2020 election with the economy in freefall and massive trade tariffs from the EU, along with Scotland becoming independent?
I'm certain that Corbyn will be gone before 2020.

 

[northwichcat]

The Republic of Ireland would not want to join a new UK, while if a vote was given to Northern Ireland there's a high chance the majority would vote to join the Republic. The Irish don't even recognise Wales as a country except when sport is being played and even then some see it as a breakaway English state!

Also worth remembering that the combined population of Scotland and Wales is less than the population of the North of England.

 

[Domh245]

How could she win the 2020 election with the economy in freefall and massive trade tariffs from the EU, along with Scotland becoming independent?
I'm certain that Corbyn will be gone before 2020.

Perhaps not May personally, but the Conservatives at least. The vast majority of English constituencies voted to leave, so by angling themselves as a party of leaving the EU, they can mop up enough seats to get a majority. What also must be remembered is that a lot of remain seats are regarded as Labour Strongholds that'll probably remain red even with Corbyn at the helm (or his successor trying to mop up the mess) and that is before you get to things like the reduction in seats that makes a CON victory more likely, or the much talked about UKIP v Labour battles in the north, etc. And don't underestimate CCHQ, a lot of the damage from Brexit could be spun by them as the EU not giving us the deal we wanted (or rather they wouldn't let us have our cake and eat it)

 

[gareth950]

The Republic of Ireland would not want to join a new UK, while if a vote was given to Northern Ireland there's a high chance the majority would vote to join the Republic. The Irish don't even recognise Wales as a country except when sport is being played and even then some see it as a breakaway English state!

Also worth remembering that the combined population of Scotland and Wales is less than the population of the North of England.

Well with what will be left of the UK, I'd rather Wales be in a union with a tolerant, open-minded and global, outward looking Scotland than an in-tolerant, narrow minded, inward looking Conservative/ UKIP dominated England.

That is just my view of the current Westminster government by the way, NOT the English people as a whole. I don't mean to offend anyone as I'm perfectly aware there are many English poeole who don't subscribe to May's Brexit vision for the UK.

 

[Howardh]

I've turned my back on the Tories, Just before the 2015 election where I voted for them, I was considering joining them. No chance now, all down to Brexit.

But back to the election, if the 48% all voted for the two pro-EU parties (LD, SNP) and pro-EU MP's of LAB/CON, the 52% split their votes between LAB/CON/UKIP and add those who didn't vote in the referendum it's very hard to see who would come out the winner! If Labour voters supporting Brexit thought of voting UKIP; but the result was clearly gonna be a Tory/UKIP coalition, would they still vote UKIP?

 

[Trog]

Has she forgotten that she is the PM of the whole of the UK and not just England?

Seems a little odd to complain that the PM of the whole UK is not giving different/special treatment to the fringes on a matter the whole UK voted on as one lump.

 

[47802]

Looks like Theresa May will set out her intentions on Tuesday to crash the economy and break up the UK. If Nicola Sturgeon said now, Wales and Ireland, come and join us in Scotland to form a new union and leave England to it, I'd put my cross in the relevant box tomorrow.

Why should the whole of the UK be brought to its knees just because May is pandering to extreme English right wing nationalism fuelled by UKIP? Has she forgotten that she is the PM of the whole of the UK and not just England?

Well staying in the single market is unlikely because she would be very unlikely to get that without freedom of movement which would be untenable to the Brexiters. The obvious strategy will be a bespoke deal which the Brexiters have always claimed we can have where we get no or low tariffs on area's of trade that are most important to our economy. Of course its a risky strategy because it requires the EU to play ball which they may not do and we end up with hard Brexit and WTO tariffs. However I don't see that there is really much alternative for Mrs May other than to run with that strategy.

As for your assertion of pandering to the English right, at the end of the day we are the UK and we voted to leave as the UK, I don't particularly like it because I voted to stay In but that's what the UK voted for end of.

Oh and correct me if I am wrong on this but didn't Wales vote to leave the EU!