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Decarbonisation of UK Rail Network

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TheKnightWho

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Assuming that third rail is inherently losing 20% of the power put into it and nothing can possibly improve that figure.
Which is clearly not the case.

You would also have to include cases of DC power supply strengthening or adding additional conductors in parallel with existing circuits to do a proper cost analysis.

Additionally that assumes that energy consumption is the same as carbon production, which is clearly not the case.
If electricity is zero carbon then it doesn't matter how much is lost, it is always better to electrify more than to convert existing.

Yes, of course. The point is the same though: electrifying new lines is not necessarily more efficient than conversion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doesn't that depend on how carbon intensive the 20% of electricity you would be saving by conversion is ? For example if grid electricity was 50% decarbonised, wouldn't the cut-off point for electrifying diesel fuelled routes be anything with less than a 1/10 of the traffic of the above mentioned lines?

On another matter, I wonder how that experimental battery powered EMU is doing ? This could be a much cheaper way of decarbonising secondary routes !

Sure; I was just making a point though.

It's not hard to find lines with less than 1/10 of the use of the intensive southern mainlines though.
 
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yorksrob

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There are also the particulates issues as well. If you were to electrify all the lines through Leeds for example, you would get an additional boost to air quality which you wouldn't get from converting third rail. This ought to be factored into any cost/benefit analysis.
 

Flying Phil

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Not nearly as much if the same cells were put in a field somewhere sunny, and with higher installation costs - as well as making maintenance of the track bed more complicated and adding extra equipment that would require a possession to maintain.



They could. However lithium battery production is not exactly kind to the environment and they present a fire risk so it'd be better to forget those and just fall back to the existing system of either a diesel generator or drawing from the grid. You also again have the question of whether the same PV cells would be better employed elsewhere - a sunny field would avoid a reduction in overhead luggage space, avoid extra maintenance for already stretched rolling stock, and be able to feed usefully into the grid at all times rather than sitting idle when the mild british weather indicates minimal heating or cooling.

Very good points Mickulty. I was thinking more along the lines of using the existing assets of the railway ie land/roofs rather than covering more fields with PV panels and incurring the NIMBY wrath?? - but, as with much of this debate, the situation is complex and answers are rarely easy.
 

theageofthetra

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How about making the roofs of the trains out of PV cells? Most of our units sit around off peak in sidings getting very hot roofs in the summer- those cells would surely generate enough to power the ancillary supplies & charge batteries.
 

paul1609

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Not nearly as much if the same cells were put in a field somewhere sunny, and with higher installation costs - as well as making maintenance of the track bed more complicated and adding extra equipment that would require a possession to maintain.



They could. However lithium battery production is not exactly kind to the environment and they present a fire risk so it'd be better to forget those and just fall back to the existing system of either a diesel generator or drawing from the grid. You also again have the question of whether the same PV cells would be better employed elsewhere - a sunny field would avoid a reduction in overhead luggage space, avoid extra maintenance for already stretched rolling stock, and be able to feed usefully into the grid at all times rather than sitting idle when the mild british weather indicates minimal heating or cooling.

Don't be silly they couldn't. If you covered a standard british railway coach with solar panels there is no way they could meet the power consumption of heating or air conditioning. The large panels you see on peoples houses are usually 250 to 350 watts.
 

daikilo

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Going back to the original post, the assertion is made that essentially the TOC will be paying for fuel. This is true but he will only be able to choose between what is available e.g. is a given route electrified or not (mainly NR), can he source the most efficient recent diesels (mainly ROSCOs), can existing stock be modified to a lower carbon footprint? (ROSCOs?). This latter point is very relevant in the context of emitted polutants.

Britain is leading the world with hybrid buses, many with BAeSystems hybrid drivelines yet I believe not one exists for a local train, why? Indeed, why is there a green bus fund yet nothing similar for rail, at the very least Pacer replacement should qualify.

My point is that we need a holistic view, for the country.
 

broadgage

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How about making the roofs of the trains out of PV cells? Most of our units sit around off peak in sidings getting very hot roofs in the summer- those cells would surely generate enough to power the ancillary supplies & charge batteries.

Unlikely to be worthwhile in most cases for the reasons already given by others, and also consider that the extra weight of the PV modules will add slightly to the running costs of the train, as will any extra wind resistance.

I have previously suggested fitting PV modules to heritage carriages, and possibly also to heritage DMUs, the output though small in direct financial terms would be very valuable for keeping seldom used batteries charged and in good condition.

For the production of electricity on a large scale it would be more worth while to fit PV modules to the roofs of stations, depots and other railway buildings.
Many smaller stations lack platform canopies, the income from PV modules could make installing extra canopies worthwhile.

In the case of new construction, it is possible to design structures in which PV modules are not affixed to the roof, but ARE the roof. This reduces costs very considerably and is ideal for railway station shelters.
 

najaB

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Britain is leading the world with hybrid buses, many with BAeSystems hybrid drivelines yet I believe not one exists for a local train, why?
There is, and has been for many years: diesel-electric trains use an IC engine to power electric motors. The only difference is that they don't use battery storage because the power requirement means that they would be on engine power the majority of the time.
 

Elecman

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Very good points Mickulty. I was thinking more along the lines of using the existing assets of the railway ie land/roofs rather than covering more fields with PV panels and incurring the NIMBY wrath?? - but, as with much of this debate, the situation is complex and answers are rarely easy.

Network Rail has about 10 trial sites of PV on buildings on LNW Route and also a Maintenance depot in the Southern Route. Nor overly impressive results from the PV panels.
 

mickulty

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Very good points Mickulty. I was thinking more along the lines of using the existing assets of the railway ie land/roofs rather than covering more fields with PV panels and incurring the NIMBY wrath?? - but, as with much of this debate, the situation is complex and answers are rarely easy.

It's an interesting point but I suspect (/hope!) we're a long way from being so short of usable space that we have to cram PV systems in suboptimal places - and hopefully before we do get that short, energy storage technology will reach a point where it's possible for electricity to be generated, stored and exported from more optimal locations like the Sahara.

Don't be silly they couldn't. If you covered a standard british railway coach with solar panels there is no way they could meet the power consumption of heating or air conditioning. The large panels you see on peoples houses are usually 250 to 350 watts.

I'll be honest, I didn't consider that to be the main issue and didn't bother to find out the ballpark power consumption of a carriage on the assumption that it didn't affect the viability - you are quite right though, even in ideal conditions such a solar system wouldn't be able to supply tens of kilowatts.
 

AndrewE

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Solar gain in the UK just isn't enough to run trains.

One figure on the internet puts average energy arriving from the sun at under 5 kWhr / m2/day in the English Midlands in mid-summer, and Exeter at 5.3. If it is generated over say 10 hours then that averages 500 Watts per metre sq, so the midday max might be 1 kW per m2. In winter it's about a 10th of these figures. Then you have the solar pv efficiency to consider, currently under 10%.

A single Pendolino consumes about 5 MegaWatts for traction alone, so to power it would need a minimum of 5000 sq m at 100% efficiency, and more like 50 000 sq m in reality. That's all the sunshine hitting the ground for 50 metres out from the track for a length of a km to power each train, and the other direction would take all the solar gain for 50 metres the other side of the track. This only provides enough power at midday in the summer of course, and for 2 tracks. In winter (and summer mornings and evenings) the solar gain is so low that it would need a 500 metre strip parallel to the track!

Another way to put it in context is that Navitron http://www.navitron.org.uk/products/solar-photovoltaics say
Over 1.5 MW of building integrated PV is already installed in the UK.
That's about enough for 1/3 of 1 Pendolino from the whole of the UK.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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- Do any of the TOC's throw their weight around in seeking some input on how power is procured.

To answer the OP on one point (or not answer depending on your point of view) NR owns the infrastructure which could produce green power and the ROSCOs own the stock etc which could also have PV -so I would assume the TOCs do not have that much clout.
 

Taunton

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Whilst it is often trumpeted that electricity from EdF's ex-CEGB AGR/PWR fleet is used to power the railway, there is absolutely no real way of determining what power was actually used.

In almost all cases the electricity will come from a random grab bag of generating sources near where the electricity is used. Such deals are normally just pointless virtue-signalling.
Not so. If NR had struck the deal with (say) Drax Power, then there would be n million megawatts more generated from coal, and n megawatts less generated from French nuclear. The generators have to put into the grid what their customers are taking out.

It is notable that in doing the French deal with EdF, NR have shafted their own freight customers who do (did) considerable work delivering coal and biomass to Drax and other stations. I presume such a consideration never came into their minds.


It should not agree ludicrously generous subsidy schemes like 'strike price' schemes or feed in tariffs that exist solely to transfer large sums of money from the public purse in the pockets of various financiers. [See Hinkley Point or the Swansea Lagoon scheme for examples]
Or likewise all the solar panels on your roof schemes. Also, the current political crisis in Northern Ireland has been caused by an even more extreme government scheme which seems to have diverted substantial funds to a very limited set of power users, who in fact are squandering the power just to get additional subsidy.
 
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swrailuser

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Decarbonisation - When this is applied to the SWML (if Ever) we have some serious obstacles to overcome the section of the line between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth being the first any electric ,Bimode or badly designed Diesel train (XC 22x class unit) will go belly up in first signs of any bad weather that throws water over the line whilst the venerable HST 125 and crappy slow 150's just shoulder it off until the tracks disappear, Then we have the steep gradients of the Devon banks which will cause traction issues for lightweight electric unit if the line was ever electrified then on the reverse side of the coin we have the annual problems of the lines being inundated at Cowley bridge and across the somerset levels.

Then you have the unresolved problem of the line speeds over the line all the way from Reading to Penzance where electric trains would be inefficient by not being able to run at speed and regenerate sufficient power form the braking during slow running.

As it is due to the steepness of the lines out of Plymouth to Totnes a fully laden china clay train has to be split at Plympton to get over the banks behind 66, 56, 70 or 60 class loco, if the around the moor was reinstated and electrified then the freight would not have to split saving fuel and rail slots on the line give more opportunities to improve our lot down here. IFthese problems were addressed and this was to happen here HUGE Gains would be made
 

HSTEd

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Not so. If NR had struck the deal with (say) Drax Power, then there would be n million megawatts more generated from coal, and n megawatts less generated from French nuclear. The generators have to put into the grid what their customers are taking out.
So do you think the National Grid will allow the system to brown out because Network Rail is using more power than projected (leaving aside that there is no easy way to know that at all times) or because a unit trip at Torness or Heysham 1/2 has left EdF unable to meet the power demand from the railway? Rather than simply ordering its reserve generation to increase output?

The electricity 'market' is founded upon guesswork and computational models - it bears little definite relation to what happens on the ground.
The only way around t his would be instantaneous reporting of all input and output points in real time and monitoring of power flow all over the network - which would be even more complicated than the current mess.

It is a disaster designed primarily to allow for speculators to make money from nothing.
It is notable that in doing the French deal with EdF, NR have shafted their own freight customers who do (did) considerable work delivering coal and biomass to Drax and other stations. I presume such a consideration never came into their minds.
The freight customers who are giant subsidy junkies?
Or likewise all the solar panels on your roof schemes. Also, the current political crisis in Northern Ireland has been caused by an even more extreme government scheme which seems to have diverted substantial funds to a very limited set of power users, who in fact are squandering the power just to get additional subsidy.
Yes, and I don't support those either.
Nuclear and Tidal should be the backbone of the generating supply. Those two can leverage the very low interest rates on long term government bonds to deliver extremely low electricity prices.
 
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InTheEastMids

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Nuclear and Tidal should be the backbone of the generating supply. Those two can leverage the very low interest rates on long term government bonds to deliver extremely low electricity prices.

You're basically saying "nuclear would be cheap if it gets a low cost of capital". I'll say that "nuclear deserves a high cost of capital because the downside risks of the project (cost over-runs) are enormous".

And this is the problem of the energy transition. People seem determined to act as a benevolent dictator and choose some "right" mix for the UK. However, the "right mix" is as much a result of ones own prejudices. Many very sophisticated models and their expert users implicitly favour centralised over distributed technologies, systematically undervalue energy storage, or have very poor treatment of the dynamics of electricity systems. Then these models do not survive contact with the reality of investors. Not only must Hinkley suffer the risks of over-run, but once running the gross margins of the project will look enormous and be a tempting target for a windfall tax.

In this case, a nuclear+tidal solution is basically backing two very risky technologies where the costs are going the wrong way. Germany is backing solar, wind and energy storage. In the case of all 3, the costs continue to fall - and very quickly in the case of batteries and offshore wind.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Not only must Hinkley suffer the risks of over-run, but once running the gross margins of the project will look enormous and be a tempting target for a windfall tax.

I guarantee it in the future - here is why. If you switch road and rail away from hydrocarbon which are very heavily taxed, (OT and if enough people quite smoking) you lose a huge amount of tax revenue. The tax will have to come from somewhere and there is only so much income tax you can charge. So a tax on electricity etc. is coming - maybe not in my lifetime but it is coming.
 

HSTEd

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You're basically saying "nuclear would be cheap if it gets a low cost of capital". I'll say that "nuclear deserves a high cost of capital because the downside risks of the project (cost over-runs) are enormous".
Leaving aside the inherent problems of the EPR, it doesn't really matter if the risk of project overruns are enormous.
If the organisation that builds the nuclear power station has access to capital at the rates being obtained through issuing of index linked gilts - it is almost irrelevant how much the plant overruns by, the capital charge is tiny compared to current electricity wholesale prices either way.
And if the state was building the reactors because it still owned an integrated electricity operator there would be no need to fix the cost of the electricity from the plant in advance. That is a construction that is entirely necessary because of the absurd pseudo-market we have today.
And this is the problem of the energy transition. People seem determined to act as a benevolent dictator and choose some "right" mix for the UK. However, the "right mix" is as much a result of ones own prejudices. Many very sophisticated models and their expert users implicitly favour centralised over distributed technologies,
The laws of physics favour centralised over distributed technologies, thanks to the inherent problems with embedding generation at low voltage - especially in a grid where grid demand and generation from intermittant sources can be widely spread geographically due to weather and population distirbution concerns.
Distributed generation has to be connected at lower voltages, and lower voltages are where the bulk of the losses are - so you want to avoid having to move power through those levels twice if you can.
systematically undervalue energy storage, or have very poor treatment of the dynamics of electricity systems. Then these models do not survive contact with the reality of investors. Not only must Hinkley suffer the risks of over-run, but once running the gross margins of the project will look enormous and be a tempting target for a windfall tax.
But since the private capital has an enormous repayment rate there will be no net margins, and gross margins are irrelevant since they aren't taxable.
And a windfall tax is a pointless and complex bureaucratic solution that only exists because of the madness of a 'deregulated' (actually regulated to the gills) electricity market.
The natural method for operating an electricity grid is a vertically integrated one.
In this case, a nuclear+tidal solution is basically backing two very risky technologies where the costs are going the wrong way. Germany is backing solar, wind and energy storage. In the case of all 3, the costs continue to fall - and very quickly in the case of batteries and offshore wind.
WHich is why the German grid is near total collapse and the subsidies are now a bigger portion of the bill than the wholesale price of electricity thanks to the insane rates they are paying for near useless power.

And the electricity rates are already some of the highest in Europe and still climbing?
 
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InTheEastMids

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Leaving aside the inherent problems of the EPR, it doesn't really matter if the risk of project overruns are enormous.
If the organisation that builds the nuclear power station has access to capital at the rates being obtained through issuing of index linked gilts - it is almost irrelevant how much the plant overruns by, the capital charge is tiny compared to current electricity wholesale prices either way.
And if the state was building the reactors because it still owned an integrated electricity operator there would be no need to fix the cost of the electricity from the plant in advance. That is a construction that is entirely necessary because of the absurd pseudo-market we have today.?

Sure, nobody cares when those government-backed projects fall massively behind schedule and over budget. Oh, how is the GWEP going again? Oh, nothing to see there ;)

It's a nice point to ruminate over - What Government could have done if the CEGB had remained nationalised and existed now... however it doesn't help deliver Hinkley from the position where there is a very weak supply chain in the UK, an apparently hopeless reactor design and the main contractor is effectively a JV of French and Chinese governments.


Distributed generation has to be connected at lower voltages, and lower voltages are where the bulk of the losses are - so you want to avoid having to move power through those levels twice if you can.

You don't necessarily need to move it twice - the demand is at low voltage too. And it's cheaper to take those losses if the generation is cheap, compared too centralised systems. And of course if your production is near the demand, then you don't need so much T&D infrastructure. In reality, it will of course be some mix of transmission-connected large-scale generation at a distance from demand - such as offshore wind - and distribution-connected generation near point of use. What mix? Nobody really knows but whatever market design comes to pass will lead to the market deciding. However, every time UK Govt decides to spaff a load of bill-payers cash on an expensive upstream project, they are probably improving the case for own generation.

The natural method for operating an electricity grid is a vertically integrated one.
However... a vertically integrated electricity system missed the benefits of horizontal integration across energy vectors in an energy system. Would a 2017 era CEGB have adopted CHP in any meaningful way, as Scandinavians have done? It certainly didn't.


WHich is why the German grid is near total collapse and the subsidies are now a bigger portion of the bill than the wholesale price of electricity thanks to the insane rates they are paying for near useless power.

And the electricity rates are already some of the highest in Europe and still climbing.

And I, for one, salute our benevolent German taxpayer friends for sending these technologies shooting down the cost curve! Effectively they've provided a huge gift to the rest of the world. The problems of the German energy system is because the Germans inexplicably failed to see, or act on the impact of zero marginal-cost generation on wholesale markets and implement a capacity market in a timely manner. Much higher renewable penetration than the UK with much less developed thinking on capacity. Germany is also only beginning to grapple intellectually with the challenge of decarbonising the heat sector, which is going to be much, much harder than power. Much harder.
 

HSTEd

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Sure, nobody cares when those government-backed projects fall massively behind schedule and over budget. Oh, how is the GWEP going again? Oh, nothing to see there ;)
I don't think its physically possible for a nuclear reactor to cost more than the Hinkley Point C budget - you could replace all the steel in the reactor building (and the steel content is ludicrous compared to designs like the AP1000, ESBWR and similar) with silver and not do that.
I think (I hope!) its been contingencied to death after the disasters at Okiluoto (sp) and Flamanville.
It's a nice point to ruminate over - What Government could have done if the CEGB had remained nationalised and existed now... however it doesn't help deliver Hinkley from the position where there is a very weak supply chain in the UK, an apparently hopeless reactor design and the main contractor is effectively a JV of French and Chinese governments.
Why does the reactor get easier to build if the money is 'private'.
A £1 from the state buys as much nuclear reactor as £1 of private capital, although it isn't really private capital since most of the risk is transferred to the taxpayer thanks to the strike price and the magic of limited liability.
The treasury could buy the Hinkley Point reactors outright, even at that ludicrous price, without it showing up as more than a rounding error on government spending for the year.
They don't want to because they are still enslaved to the fiction that is the free market in electricity.
Supply chain problem scan be solved by going to the one reactor design that can be built in countries with little to no nuclear supply chain - the CANDU.
If you can get 70% in-country equipment purchase in communist-era Romania I think you can manage it in the UK (I believe the primary imported components were the zircaloy pressure tubes and the large turbine equipment).

You don't necessarily need to move it twice - the demand is at low voltage too. And it's cheaper to take those losses if the generation is cheap, compared too centralised systems.[ And of course if your production is near the demand, then you don't need so much T&D infrastructure.
Ah, so you intend to surrender the primary reason we have a grid in the first place, supply and demand will no longer be pooled into national aggregates?
Demand moves across the course of the day, week and even the year. Unless you overbuild generation all over the place (which all has to be paid for) doing this is not really very practical in real life.
In reality, it will of course be some mix of transmission-connected large-scale generation at a distance from demand - such as offshore wind - and distribution-connected generation near point of use. What mix? Nobody really knows but whatever market design comes to pass will lead to the market deciding. However, every time UK Govt decides to spaff a load of bill-payers cash on an expensive upstream project, they are probably improving the case for own generation.
But without those enormous sums of billpayer money, there would be no local generation.
Big multi hundred megawatt H-class CCGTs would have annihilated virtually every other newbuild generation scheme - at least with private capital return rates.
Unless you can't use gas for climate reasons there is no reason to use anything else as things stand.

Additionally integrated generation like rooftop PV panels drive up the price of grid electricity per unit (especially for everyone who doesn't have them) because the people who have them use less grid electricity but still expect a grid connection to be maintained for their convenience.
The cost of the grid connection still has to be paid for but is amortised over less electricity.
The cheapest way to reduce the price of electricity per unit is to get everyone to use more.
However... a vertically integrated electricity system missed the benefits of horizontal integration across energy vectors in an energy system. Would a 2017 era CEGB have adopted CHP in any meaningful way, as Scandinavians have done? It certainly didn't.
Leaving aside that essentially every significant CHP project (in terms of actual energy produced) in the UK dates from the CEGB era, it would have to stand on its own feet economically - and it doesn't.
The capital cost of District Heat distribution systems are enormous [something approaching £5000 per dwelling], and the costs associated with cramming CHP plants into every house are even more enormous in efficiency (or lackthereof) terms.
I am afraid practical carbon dioxide based air source heat pumps have slammed the door close on district heat in a substantial way.
And I, for one, salute our benevolent German taxpayer friends for sending these technologies shooting down the cost curve! Effectively they've provided a huge gift to the rest of the world.
Yes, they have reduced renewables from ludicrously overpriced to simply extremely overpriced.
Offshore wind is still so expensive that it can't even compete with the ludicrous price that the owners of the Hinkley Point scheme were able to get from the desperate politicians in the DECC (or whatever it is this week).
The problems of the German energy system is because the Germans inexplicably failed to see, or act on the impact of zero marginal-cost generation on wholesale markets and implement a capacity market in a timely manner.
Ah yes, the capacity market - where we pay for huge installed capacity of diesel engines and open cycle turbines, which are not really the kind of generation any large scale grid should be relying on.
I still can't see the advantage this way of things has over simply building conventional low carbon generating plant all owned by the grid supplier [which would be owned by the state, as befits a capital-intensive business where the capital can last 60-120 years or more], and not bothering with short-lived expensive-to-operate unreliable generating sources like offshore wind.
On shore wind is unfortunately vulnerable to cold winter weather with no wind that has been known to happen in recent years (in one case two weeks with almost no real wind generation).

Batteries in a capacity market will be of no use in that scenario since they will only be able to keep it up for a matter of hours before they deplete and load shedding becomes necessary.

EDIT:

My objective is to reduce electricity rates to comparable to those in Quebec, with Tidal and Nuclear I believe it can be done, but only with gilt-rate capital.
Rates this low (note that is Canadian dollars, not US Dollars) would be a massive boost to the quality of life in the UK, and it could be done with near-zero carbon emission
 
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Class 170101

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I personally favour solar, tidal, wave and wind energy rather than nuclear because of the risks involved with nuclear seem higher than the others I have mentioned. However I appreciate that some of ther renewables are yet or will be unable to ever provide base load power.

However for those who say solar energy is more efficient in a field than on people's roofs remember this you can only use the same field for one thing at once. Globally there is an expanding world population that needs feeding if you place solar panels in the field it cannot be used for crops. I have yet to see a roof used for mass food production so would favour roofs for solar panels and fields for food produection. Just a thought.
 

najaB

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I personally favour solar, tidal, wave and wind energy rather than nuclear because of the risks involved with nuclear seem higher than the others I have mentioned. However I appreciate that some of ther renewables are yet or will be unable to ever provide base load power.
Nuclear is safe. The worst accident to date at Chernobyl has only resulted in something like 100 excess deaths due to radiation so far. The estimates are something under 5,000 total over the next 100 years. In that time coal will have killed tens or hundreds of thousands.
However for those who say solar energy is more efficient in a field than on people's roofs remember this you can only use the same field for one thing at once. Globally there is an expanding world population that needs feeding if you place solar panels in the field it cannot be used for crops.
Solar panels don't have to go on arable land.
 

Flying Phil

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I see on the internet, 4Kw solar panels plus connection to grid for £2399 and 17% efficient. The size for that is 2 x 12 m. Given that the output will vary during the day/season/ orientation That must be a reasonably low KwHr/£ assuming a lifetime of 25 years and low maintenance costs?
 

HSTEd

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I see on the internet, 4Kw solar panels plus connection to grid for £2399 and 17% efficient. The size for that is 2 x 12 m. Given that the output will vary during the day/season/ orientation That must be a reasonably low KwHr/£ assuming a lifetime of 25 years and low maintenance costs?

Capacity factor is something like 10%, so you will produce 400W average. Which translates to approximately 87MWh (discounting effects such as panel degradation for the moment, and also the significant losses that occur if you don't wash your panels during a dry summer).

87MWh sounds like and you could produce a small levelised cost if you assume very low capital conditions.
Unfortunately this does not take account of the fact that electricity use is lower in summer and solar panels produce effectively all their power during the summer. So solar panel electricity is actually worth less than the average electricity (this seasonal swing easily swamps the diurnal swing that favours panels).
At 0% capital charge those panels will translate to ~£27.50/MWh, which is significantly cheaper than grid electricity.
However 0% capital on a nuclear powr station at a reasonable (if you ain;t building a damn EPR) rate of ~£4000/kW, would expect to produce something like ~473MWh/kW installed capacity at 90% cap factor (achieved by CANDUs and other similar units in several cases) and 60 year life.
Which translates into a capital charge of ~£8.45/MWh.
And the value of the electricity will be equal to the average price of electricity or greater since the outages will almost all be in the low-price summer region and are largely predictable.

So at the low capital charges required to make solar cheap Nuclear will still crush it.
It gets even more interesting when we consider that as it stands, index linked (so protected against inflation) interest rates on government bonds for long term sup to ~50 years (longest on issue) are actually negative and below -1%.
In fact the last time I checked the 2068 bonds were at ~-1.6% in real terms, to maturity.
Over 25 years that means ~33% of the capital vanishes in a puff of smoke in real terms. But over 60 years then ~62% of the capital vanishes in a puff of smoke.
So the nuclear power plants longer life reduces its effective real terms capital charge even more (Since those rates are locked in for the entire plant life at the time of bond issue).

Tidal barrages take this to a ludicrous extreme as at that rate (and inflation linked rates trend more negative as terms increase so it seems reasonable, even though no 120 year bonds actually exist), something like ~85% of the capital vanishes.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No. We are talking about railfreight not the massively subsidised road haulage industry.

Railfreight is definitely heavily subsidised.
And considering the problems it causes for the passenger railway it is somewhat problematic whether such subsidies should continue.
 
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najaB

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Railfreight is definitely heavily subsidised.
And considering the problems it causes for the passenger railway it is somewhat problematic whether such subsidies should continue.
Compared to the problems that would result from that freight moving to the roads, yes it should.
 

HSTEd

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Compared to the problems that would result from that freight moving to the roads, yes it should.

There are alternatives between rail and road you know.
For example the container-port to Manchester liners could be replaced with short sea shipping via the Ship Canal. And relatively minor improvements to the Aire and Calder Navigation would permit transhipped containers to reach Leeds and such.

The rail network is incredibly crowded and something has to give considering the amount of public money expended trying to keep freight on the rails.
Given the number of freight trains pathed that never actually run it is not a matter of a single passenger train against a single freight train, it is a matter of a single freight train against several passenger trains carrying hundreds or thousands of passengers in total.
 
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najaB

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There are alternatives between rail and road you know.
Yes, I know but does industry? Road is their default setting, rail is seen as a poor relation. More importantly, does government?

Moving British Waterways into the voluntary sector doesn't inspire me with any confidence that they see a commercial future for them.
 

Class 170101

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Nuclear is safe. The worst accident to date at Chernobyl has only resulted in something like 100 excess deaths due to radiation so far. The estimates are something under 5,000 total over the next 100 years. In that time coal will have killed tens or hundreds of thousands.
Solar panels don't have to go on arable land.

Deaths so far. Don't forget Japan. This is an unknown quantity and probably won't be known for years ahead.

The other thing I resent about nuclear is that it needs a strike price that seems to be far in excess of current market prices.

As for solar panels on arable land yes I accept your point but thats not to say it hasn't happened.
 
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