Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Roast Veg]

I'm not so sure about the demand, the recent orders have covered most TOCs that would want them. The shortfall now is in diesel stock for Wales, GWR, LM, Southern, and EMT, who all need either new diesel stock now, or will do come 2020.

 

[physics34]

I wonder what this actually means. Are they banned or have they just never been cleared? Or is this something that can never be resolved without great expense?

Otherwise, from the flexibility point of view, the 319 Flex would seem a good option.

Mk3 based stock is not cleared down there. Oxted tunnel is very long but is also very old.... im not sure how serious the lack of clearance is in the tunnel.... but it is enough of an issue for even Mk1s that used to go down there to have bars put up across the windows to be prevent people sticking their heads out.

 

[deltic08]

Well I suppose you can change the seating but as has already been stated adding aircon that's more power for the Diesel Generator's will have to supply and more weight, plus they are probably going to be on the underpowered side as it is so I doubt that will be happening

Is it possible for aircon to work only when the pan is up and cut out or on reduced use when on diesel engine?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it possible for aircon to work only when the pan is up and cut out or on reduced use when on diesel engine?

I'm sure it is, but I can't see that being popular.

 

[Rob T]

Mk3 based stock is not cleared down there. Oxted tunnel is very long but is also very old.... im not sure how serious the lack of clearance is in the tunnel.... but it is enough of an issue for even Mk1s that used to go down there to have bars put up across the windows to be prevent people sticking their heads out.

Many thanks for your reply.

As far as I can see coach height and length should not be an issue, but width, as you suggest, is where the problem could lie. From what I can ascertain a 377 unit is 2.8m wide, whereas a 319 is 2.82m wide. Fine margins, but perhaps enough to create an issue.

As suggested elsewhere, the profile of a coach on a 319, being squarer at the coach ends, may also come in to play.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not so sure about the demand, the recent orders have covered most TOCs that would want them. The shortfall now is in diesel stock for Wales, GWR, LM, Southern, and EMT, who all need either new diesel stock now, or will do come 2020.

I thought the 9 x Eversholt 170s Southern secured met fulfilled their franchise requirement for additional diesel powered trains.

Surely GWR partly depends on electrification - the current franchise deemed the 143s, 153s and 150/1s surplus to requirements if electrification and the relevant cascades happen.

 

[kevjs]

I'm sure it is, but I can't see that being popular.

Depends where the trains are used - for a short branch at the start and end of the journey running at low power probably makes very little difference (after all it's pretty rare for an air con unit to be running 24/7 - once the room is cool enough the aircon turns off, when it gets too warm it's on again) - except perhaps the first journey of the day in mid-summer.

Of course - if they end up running away from the wires the majority of the time then the ball game is changed.

 

[najaB]

Random question - would they be allocated a new class number? If so, what is it likely to be?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends where the trains are used - for a short branch at the start and end of the journey running at low power probably makes very little difference (after all it's pretty rare for an air con unit to be running 24/7 - once the room is cool enough the aircon turns off, when it gets too warm it's on again) - except perhaps the first journey of the day in mid-summer.

That would be true of proper climate control, but the railway does seem to love belting in hot air from the lower ducts and cold air from the upper ducts and leaving it to sort itself out.

 

[AM9]

Random question - would they be allocated a new class number? If so, what is it likely to be?

Class 219?

 

[najaB]

Class 219?

That was my thought but wasn't sure if it had ever been used for anything.

 

[physics34]

Many thanks for your reply.

As far as I can see coach height and length should not be an issue, but width, as you suggest, is where the problem could lie. From what I can ascertain a 377 unit is 2.8m wide, whereas a 319 is 2.82m wide. Fine margins, but perhaps enough to create an issue.

As suggested elsewhere, the profile of a coach on a 319, being squarer at the coach ends, may also come in to play.

i think it is the square profile that is the issue, not 100% sure though.

 

[AM9]

That was my thought but wasn't sure if it had ever been used for anything.

Couldn't find anything. Maybe it should be class 255 as it's a MKIII and follows the HSTs chronologically.

 

[jopsuk]

That was my thought but wasn't sure if it had ever been used for anything.

Doesn't matter if it has been used previously as long as there's no current class using it. But there's been very few DEMU (2xx) classes ever allocated- the full list is:
251 and 261: Blue Pullmans (never actually carried the numbers though)
252: HST Prototype
253: HST (Western and Cross Country)
254: HST (Eastern and Scotland)
255: Never applied but used in some official documents, shortened Virgin Challenger sets
201-207: Southern Region Thumpers
210: two prototype units based on the Mark 3 suburban body, more similar to the EMUs than the Sprinters
220: Voyager
221: Super Voyager
222: Meridian (and Pioneer when they were at Hull Trains)
230: D-Train (barbecue)

 

[SF-02]

I'm not so sure about the demand, the recent orders have covered most TOCs that would want them. The shortfall now is in diesel stock for Wales, GWR, LM, Southern, and EMT, who all need either new diesel stock now, or will do come 2020.

Southeastern could make use of a fair number. They are running many services below max lengths for routes in peak time.

 

[jopsuk]

Southeastern could make use of a fair number. They are running many services below max lengths for routes in peak time.

Southeastern don't need any diesel stock whatsoever.

 

[najaB]

Doesn't matter if it has been used previously as long as there's no current class using it.

Yeah, but who would want a second hand class number?

 

[jopsuk]

Yeah, but who would want a second hand class number?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well indeed. There's also (obviously) no need, and 219 would be a perfectly sensible number for them

Would it though? 2xx is diesel units with electric transmission, not bi-mode units. There's no precedence for numbering of EDMU sets.

 

[The Ham]

Would it though? 2xx is diesel units with electric transmission, not bi-mode units. There's no precedence for numbering of EDMU sets.

819 then?

 

[AM9]

819 then?

A yellow class 919 would be useful as a go-anywhere* 'test any track/power supply' vehicle, - take the seats out and it could even deliver NR's internal mail and parcels (as in class 325).
* Subject to a few ancient structure gauge restrictions.

 

[ac6000cw]

Would it though? 2xx is diesel units with electric transmission, not bi-mode units. There's no precedence for numbering of EDMU sets.

If you followed the principle of the electro-diesel loco class numbering (73, 74 and 88) they would be numbered in the AC EMU series, as they are now.

Since they are likely to be less powerful on diesel, regarding them as 'electro-diesel' seems appropriate.

 

[AM9]

Although recent numbering has been a bit more ordered, the TOPS system has been sloppily applied for years, so using one of the many gaps in the original groups wouldn't do any harm for a class that probably doesn't have a life exceeding 10 years.

 

[Deepgreen]

Ohh, with diesel engines in the driving trailers is it back to the future?

(Not my image - found on Google)

I know it's unlikely that some of each driving trailer seats would be converted to the engine bay but at least this shows how it could look!
Cheers,
Mr Toad

Somewhat atypical train photographers!

 

[CosherB]

I'm afraid I can't get too hung up about a number - 219 seems logical and perfectly fine to me. I'm more interested in the success of the engineering!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's basically a D-317, isn't it?

The engines will be under the floor, so not quite.

 

[Camden]

Or a 150e ...

 

[D365]

Or a 150e ...

The Class 150 was conceived after the 210 was not taken further.

 

[47802]

I like the way the Blue Grey livery even manages to make what then would have been a new train look old, admittedly not helped by what appears to be peeling paint around the front windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or a 150e ...

Sort-of - the 150 has the later style of window and ceiling lighting, whereas the 210 had the MK3 style ceiling and small vents of the early 317s.
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I like the way the Blue Grey livery even manages to make what then would have been a new train look old, admittedly not helped by what appears to be peeling paint around the front windows.

I think that's context - blue and grey was super-modern back then.