Class 180's to.....Northern?

[devon_metro]

They didn't buy them, they've leased them. They had a major problem in that they would not have enough trains thanks to the timetable recast and these were the only trains available. Yes, Northern would have preferred some other stock (such as what it has now so that it doesn't have to mess around with training and adapting a fleet for different operating methods) but if the only thing on the market is a 125mph 5 car unit then that is what Northern is stuck with

SDO deals with the platform length problems. Chopping units up (aka Christmas Trees) is well known for fleets. Northern have used 142071 and numerous others units as Christmas Trees. It is well known when a fleet is due to be withdrawn. But a lad is not going to turn up with cutting equipment and break one up. :roll:

What a waste, FGW could have done with an extra 142...

 

[Pumbaa]

Think Northern Should keep the 180s infact get a few more and put them in for a compleate strip doen and re-fit mecanicly and interaly then put them to use on the Liverpool-Manchester Airport and L-Pool-Blackpool North Diagrams and send some 156s over to EMT.

What a stupid idea. 125mph stock is needed elsewhere. Northern needs new stock, and it's getting some to improve capacity. EMT will probably get nought.

 

[1D53]

180's can fit in Manchester Airport - even double 185's can.

As for 142071 it was robbed of small spare parts to keep the rest of the fleet going while undergoing overhaul - 071 is back in service now and has been for some time.

 

[John_158]

Don't forget folks that the 125mph is only a capable speed and there is no rules to say that they have to be used at 125mph especially when we have such issues with overcrowding.

Some of the Diagrams on the Liverpool-Blackpool and Liverpool-Manchester Airport would vastly be viable for these units to run on and the extra carriages would encourage people to use these fast services more instead of cramming on the Local Stopping Services.

It would help though if Both Services had better stopping patterns and both called at Huyton in Both Directions.

Northern keeping and getting more of these units would as said free up some 156s or 153s for EMTs Local Services freeing up 158s for Liverpool-Norwich reducing overcrowding.

Also iam wondering what is happening with the two 180s that where returned from Virgin Trains?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Am I right in saying that Northerns 180 units are actually being sub-leased from NXEC anyway??

 

[John_158]

No there leased from Porterbrook or Angel !

 

[Max]

No there leased from Porterbrook or Angel !

Ultimately yes, but I believe The_Rail_WAy is correct, it is NXEC who are leasing the units from the ROSCOs, and they are then being subleased to Northern. Either this or they are simply earmarked for NXEC, I can't quite remember!

 

[Pumbaa]

Ultimately yes, but I believe The_Rail_WAy is correct, it is NXEC who are leasing the units from the ROSCOs, and they are then being subleased to Northern. Either this or they are simply earmarked for NXEC, I can't quite remember!

I think they've been earmarked for future employment? No paperwork has been signed yet I don't think.

 

[1D53]

They are straight from the ROSCO! Nxec haven't signed for them yet as far as I am aware!

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Check page 4 on the following link:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-ecml-NEX_sum_280308.pdf

Not sur if that confirms anything but an interesting article all the same...

 

[John_158]

Yes quite interesting but doesn't say anything about rolling stock and after last nights performance from EMT with a train failure on the inward bound 17.31 arrival at Liverpool Lime St Cancelled meaning that the 17.52 out ward Service to Norwich being Cancelled also.

I think the best option for Northern is to keep the 180s and take on the two which have come back from VT in order to free up as said 153s or 156s for EMT as there is no way EMT can cope over the next 11 to 15 months with the desecrating condition of there 158s.

If Nat Ex need more rolling stock fro these proposals then I see no reason why they cannot take on the redundant MK3 coaches and DVTs that are stored at Crewe obviously they will need a refresh or refub but there are plenty of locos around to go with them.

 

[Pumbaa]

If Nat Ex need more rolling stock fro these proposals then I see no reason why they cannot take on the redundant MK3 coaches and DVTs that are stored at Crewe obviously they will need a refresh or refub but there are plenty of locos around to go with them.

There are no spare Mk3s in a usable condition as far as I'm aware. The carriages outside Crewe are completely wrecked are they not? And are most of them Mk2?

I think the best option for Northern is to keep the 180s and take on the two which have come back from VT in order to free up as said 153s or 156s for EMT as there is no way EMT can cope over the next 11 to 15 months with the desecrating condition of there 158s.

Which is why they're giving them a refurb genius. Plus Northern needs extra rolling stock as well as EMT, and possibly perhaps more so - EMT needs extra capacity on the Liverpool - Norwich corridor, but that's it.

Yes quite interesting but doesn't say anything about rolling stock and after last nights performance from EMT with a train failure on the inward bound 17.31 arrival at Liverpool Lime St Cancelled meaning that the 17.52 out ward Service to Norwich being Cancelled also.

And your point is? Lots of trains get cancelled - fact. Lots of them get cancelled due to failures - fact.

 

[1D53]

As far as I remember reading two of the ones we have WERE going to be VT's. I remember hearing that if Virgin did take 2 then Northern would not.

 

[ukrob]

Yes quite interesting but doesn't say anything about rolling stock and after last nights performance from EMT with a train failure on the inward bound 17.31 arrival at Liverpool Lime St Cancelled meaning that the 17.52 out ward Service to Norwich being Cancelled also.

I think the best option for Northern is to keep the 180s and take on the two which have come back from VT in order to free up as said 153s or 156s for EMT as there is no way EMT can cope over the next 11 to 15 months with the desecrating condition of there 158s.

Northern needs more units just as much, if not more, than EMT. Everyone is happy to bleat on about the two evening peak EMT departures from Lime Street being busy - the dozens of overcrowded (not physically able to get on) Northern departures throughout the whole day don't get mentioned.

 

[MCR247]

The Northern ones were the VT ones IIRC

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

O.K this is starting to get rather confusing....

 

[Pumbaa]

As far as I remember reading two of the ones we have WERE going to be VT's. I remember hearing that if Virgin did take 2 then Northern would not.

The 180s would have been in place of the 90/Mk3s if that failed to materialise. They did, so the 180s carried on what they were doing... nothing!

 

[Chilled Phill]

There are no spare Mk3s in a usable condition as far as I'm aware. The carriages outside Crewe are completely wrecked are they not? And are most of them Mk2?

Wreck? No, of course not...

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Virgin Trains did sign an agreement with Angel to aquire two class 180 units (to replace the 90 and MK 3's) but they subsequently cancelled this agreement and continued to lease the 90 and its stock - to be used later this month between Preston - London Euston.

 

[Max]

Wreck? No, of course not...

Is it me, or does the nearest carriage have a large hole in its bodywork?

 

[MCR247]

I dont think so where abouts?

 

[me123]

That's part of the silver box on the platform :roll:

 

[class 313]

That's part of the silver box on the platform :roll:

There's a mark above the lines on the Mk2.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

There's a mark above the lines on the Mk2.

I think its a window....

 

[John_158]

Still they can be repaired, Refurbished and put in to use by 2012 that s when it says NAT EX need extra stock by i saw some of these carriges not so long ago up at EWS Allerton (Liverpool) so they can't be that bad.

Also how can you tell the difference between a Mk3 and a Mk2 Carriage ?

 

[class 313]

Still they can be repaired, Refurbished and put in to use by 2012 that s when it says NAT EX need extra stock by i saw some of these carriges not so long ago up at EWS Allerton (Liverpool) so they can't be that bad.

Also how can you tell the difference between a Mk3 and a Mk2 Carriage ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_2

 

[bluenoxid]

Still they can be repaired, Refurbished and put in to use by 2012 that s when it says NAT EX need extra stock by i saw some of these carriges not so long ago up at EWS Allerton (Liverpool) so they can't be that bad.

Also how can you tell the difference between a Mk3 and a Mk2 Carriage ?

2010

Many differences. Usually livery, formation, window style and length.

 

[Pumbaa]

Still they can be repaired, Refurbished and put in to use by 2012 that s when it says NAT EX need extra stock by i saw some of these carriges not so long ago up at EWS Allerton (Liverpool) so they can't be that bad.

Also how can you tell the difference between a Mk3 and a Mk2 Carriage ?

Possibly, but this costs loads. Mk2 refurbishment and re-entry has already been looked at extensively, like New Zealand did to ours. However, the costs were too high for a case of prolonged period of use. The bodyshell is unsafe to a certain extent, and they don't have a lot of life left in them.

 

[metrocammel]

Still they can be repaired, Refurbished and put in to use by 2012 that s when it says NAT EX need extra stock by i saw some of these carriges not so long ago up at EWS Allerton (Liverpool) so they can't be that bad.

Also how can you tell the difference between a Mk3 and a Mk2 Carriage ?

I wrote a long reply to this, but then my laptop battery died, so here's a short reply:

The coaches at Crewe are all mk2s, and possibly could be repaired- at cost. They would be useless to an IC operator as mk2s are limited to 100mph. You cannot expect a class 1 service on the ECML to be limited to 100mph, as it would have to be looped here there and everywhere- 110mph pathing is bad enough.

Also, bear in mind by 2012 the youngest mk2 would be around 36 years old- based on a design which would be 40+ years old- it's not practical!

Secondly, WHY do so many people find it hard to differentiate mk2s & 3s. There's a hell of a lot of difference aesthetically. For a start, mk2s have a smooth roof, mk3 are ridged, mk2s have lots of ancillary equipment visible underneath, whereas mk3s are neater, with a metal paneled skirt from bogey to bogey.

Don't get me wrong, they are good coaches, but not a patch on mk3s when it comes to Intercity work.

 

[John_158]

Is there no way of upgrading them to the Standard of a Mk3, But i do belive froma source that most of those coaches at Crewe have been ear marked for an opern access operator.

I think though that the paths for extra trains should go to an open access operator to provide extra services rather than Nat Ex having the monopoly.