• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Clapham Junction closed to due overcrowding [9/01]

Status
Not open for further replies.

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
I see they have closed Clapham Junction due to overcrowding, yet when I go online to National Rail Enquiries, I can see trains listed as stopping there and no note at the top saying it's closed.

I had heard people were advised not to go there, when I was at Guildford station this morning, but as that is a usual interchange onto Southern trains, I decided I would chance it. I might have to queue but I'll do it. Had I been told it was closed I wouldn't have done that. Being advised not to go somewhere is different to saying it's closed.

I don't know what time they closed it though. Going past it, I could see no one there, yet on National Rail Enquiries, trains are listed as stopping there..

So if it is indeed closed, it's a poor morning for getting out the information.

Of course perhaps they only closed it for 10 minutes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,465
Exit only mostly. Trains ran non-stop for a short period of time for platforms to be cleared but now calling again.

Station will not be reopened for a good period of time unfortunately due to the level of overcrowding on the streets.
 

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
Clapham Junction has now reopened. So it must have been a short closure. Just that every train I might have got which stops there was skipping the station.

I circulated via Waterloo and then whwn I got back to Clapham Junction I ran round and picked up my connection which was also delayed.

Another option might have been Wimbledon but there are problems with Thameslink today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exit only mostly. Trains ran non-stop for a short period of time for platforms to be cleared but now calling again.

Station will not be reopened for a good period of time unfortunately due to the level of overcrowding on the streets.
OK. Maybe it's only reopened for passengers passing through. Still nothing on Nation Rail Enquiries about it which is very poor.
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,478
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
'Llanigraham' - it is not 'wibble' as you choose to call it; it is a robust comment about a long-standing and shameful situation. I have written to complain to Southern about the staff at Redhill very many times over the last five years that I have been using the station, and every single response has been non-committal and bland, saying that the issue will be brought to the attention of the manager(!). I can assure you that I am very far from alone in my views about the staff there, and the station is notorious for its poor management and attitude to the public.

However, I am conscious that this is off-topic here and I have allowed myself to slip into more general issues than Clapham Junction's temporary closure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Moderators have informed me that some of my recent comments have stepped over a line, which I accept from the point of view of the forum rules. I apologise.
 
Last edited:

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
National Rail Enquiries Twitter staff member confirmed that there was no note put up about Clapham Junction being closed for a time. I'm not certain if they understood my question but let us assume they did. It's not good that it got missed. An oversight perhaps but given it'd a major interchange, it really was one they could ill afford to miss.

I find not understanding my questions can be the case when tweeting on Twitter or even when writing e-mails to customer services departments. I write them as simply and in pain English as I can. I explain them as best I can to, yet they still don't always understand them.

There wasn't even a note about Clapham Junction saying it's one to avoid. South West Trains did at least advise at that their stations. They said circulate via Vauxhall, Waterloo or Wimbledon. All stations that Southern do not currently stop at. There was also no underground from Waterloo either. On one fast train they advised a bus to Clapham Junction from Waterloo. Not sure how long that would have taken.

Expect Clapham Junction to feature in tonight's Evening Standard. It closed just at the right time for their 12pm or thereabouts print run. It will blame the unions and criticise them of course. I haven't followed the tube dispute and reasons for striking so I can't comment on merits. Besides it is beyond this topic, which is about the closure of Clapham Junction and poor information put out.
 
Last edited:

londonbridge

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2010
Messages
1,885
On the BBC Radio London travel bulletin they referred to it as having been evacuated due to overcrowding. Apparently Willesden Junction was also overcrowded at one point.
 

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
Wonder what it will be like later as I possibly wish to head via Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Evening Standard didn't disappoint this evening with their front page. It did indeed feature Clapham Junction as I knew it would. Not read the article yet but I imagine it will be anti staff. Sure enough in the first paragraph it was.

4b47eb3417d7cdab7fbefbc00e14d50f.jpg
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,846
The Evening Standard didn't disappoint this evening with their front page. It did indeed feature Clapham Junction as I knew it would. Not read the article yet but I imagine it will be anti staff. Sure enough in the first paragraph it was.[/IMG]
Just reflecting the view of their readership. Severely inconveniencing 100,000s of other people isn't going to be popular, is it. Less so when no-one outside the unions understands what the **** the dispute is about.
 

Hartington

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2013
Messages
165
Why was there overcrowding? Yes, I know there was a tube strike and Southern have their problems but surely the strike took out (or severely restricted) the District service to Richmond and Wimbledon and the Northern to Morden. Are there really that many people on those routes so that Clapham Junction suddenly gets overwhelmed or was there something else at work? Did lot's of people use The Overground to avoid central London? Is Clapham Junction on a normal day a disaster waiting to happen?
 

blackfrost

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2014
Messages
46
I felt like I was going to be attacked by a 100 angry commuters at Victoria after making that announcement the train wasn't going to stop at Clapham Junction especially after the train whizzed past and the platforms were empty...almost thought there was some kind of security alert!

BTW deepgreen what's wrong with the staff at Redhill? I used to commute from there myself, they seem friendly enough!
 

gottago

Member
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
61
My Southern train went past Clapham Junction this morning, thankfully I remembered right at the last minute that I could change at Battersea to get to Waterloo. Felt bad for the commuters on the Overground train that got rerouted to Battersea Park because of it.
 

Class455

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2016
Messages
1,519
My Southern train went past Clapham Junction this morning, thankfully I remembered right at the last minute that I could change at Battersea to get to Waterloo. Felt bad for the commuters on the Overground train that got rerouted to Battersea Park because of it.

My train was also affected, however this was a fast Caterham to London Victoria peak hour service (1P65 operated by a short formed 455 823), so I did not have the luxury of getting off at Battersea Park to get a South West Trains service which I needed to get. We were informed by the driver when we were passing Balham that the service would not call at Clapham Junction due to the station being evacuated. So I ended up stuck at London Victoria until the station reopened. No wonder I saw a London Overground 378 approaching Battersea Park!
 

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,684
Why was there overcrowding? Yes, I know there was a tube strike and Southern have their problems but surely the strike took out (or severely restricted) the District service to Richmond and Wimbledon and the Northern to Morden. Are there really that many people on those routes so that Clapham Junction suddenly gets overwhelmed or was there something else at work? Did lot's of people use The Overground to avoid central London? Is Clapham Junction on a normal day a disaster waiting to happen?

I dont understand why i couldnt use Clapham when I dont even use the tube at all. Did they forget there are some people who commute to outside London?
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,465
I dont understand why i couldnt use Clapham when I dont even use the tube at all. Did they forget there are some people who commute to outside London?

Clapham Junction was dangerously overcrowded at one stage, as in "dangerously packed on the platforms with very slow movement into/out of the station", carrying more people than anyone has seen for many years. There was no plan to close it initially but the decision was taken as a safety precaution.

Wimbledon was severely overcrowded in the morning peak too, buggering up the slow line through Clapham Junction and providing much less capacity for people who board at Clapham due to the extra passengers already onboard.

Closing the station was the absolute correct thing to do given today's circumstances. If that did not happen, chances are someone would likely end up under a train.
 

Hophead

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2013
Messages
1,398
There was a (sort-of) one-way system in place at Clapham Junction during the morning peak - overbridge to access 1 & 2 (LO); subway for 3-6 (although I had to go up to the bridge to find this out). There seemed to be a large crowd heading for the Overground (for the City via Shoreditch? Camden Rd / Caledonian Rd for Kings Cross kind of area?).

The District seemed to be running fairly well from Richmond, in so far as I could gather, although commuters will probably not have wanted to risk it (I didn't).

I found Southern today to be much quieter (and, indeed, more punctual) than usual. Perhaps people were aware of tube issues so not travelling? Perhaps unaware of the revised strike dates? Or just given up on the train altogether?
 

phantomphish

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2016
Messages
27
Location
Just beyond T117
Hi folks, this is my first post on this forum so I'll try to make it a worthwhile one!

Clapham Junction has a lot of experience over the last few years of crowd management, and has gone to Exit Only quite a few times during various service disruptions (the flooding in June was a particularly mad one). There are several pinch points around the station, mostly in the subway, but usually after 5 or 10 minutes the passenger flow is free enough to allow entrance again.

When the Tube is on strike there are many more people who use CLJ as an alternative, mostly heading towards platforms 1 & 2. As alluded to in earlier posts, the Overground provides an alternative to West Brompton, Kensington Olympia, Shepherds Bush, Willesden Junction (for Euston), Camden, Highbury and Islington, and Stratford, all via the West/North London Line, whilst services from platform 2 serve Shoreditch for the City via Canada Water and Whitechapel. Normally the Southern services from 16 and 17 supplement those trains on the WLL but are not advertised - this allows staff to locally control passenger flows, usually moving some of the back of the queue from the overbridge down to 16 or 17 as appropriate to relieve some of the pressure on platform 1. Those Southern services did not run due to the ongoing Southern issues, so everyone will have joined the line for the Overground with no other alternative.

Whereas normally the other pinch points for crowds building up tend to dissipate within a few minutes (as trains come and go), it would appear from photos that there were just too many crowds in too many places and this didn't happen, and so a decision was made to close the station. I suspect that the subway won't have cleared as quickly as usual if the trains from Wimbledon were so full that people couldn't board, whilst the overbridge was already full of people waiting for the Overground thereby (despite the crowd control barriers) blocking the paths of interchanging people arriving on 3 & 4. Operationally, closing the station is really unusual as the best way to move people on is by getting them on trains as soon as they can get on the platforms, but once the platforms are full to the point of people standing on the edges, there is really no other option left than to temporarily shut the whole thing down.

With circa 30 million entries and exits a year and circa 30 million interchanges a year (a ratio that no other station matches) it is not really a surprise that simply going Exit Only doesn't always solve the overcrowding issues. But with regard to the question "Is Clapham Junction on a normal day a disaster waiting to happen?" the answer is no - it's a busy place but there are plenty of measures in place to keep it flowing as best as possible and keep it as safe as possible for all who travel through there.

By contrast, the evening peak was very quiet apart from a couple of incidents on the SWT side - but the evening peak is always a 'softer' event than the morning i.e. everyone wants to be in the office for 9am, but afterwards they all gradually go home at different times and (if arriving from the Overground on platforms 1 & 2) dissipate across the whole station for their trains home rather than joining a line for one platform.

I hope these thoughts help explain a little bit about the workings of CLJ during disruption...


ThePhantomPhish
 

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,684
Thanks for your post ThePhantomPhish. Could not they have had two queuing systems in place, one for London-bound and one the other way?
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,478
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
Hi folks, this is my first post on this forum so I'll try to make it a worthwhile one!

Clapham Junction has a lot of experience over the last few years of crowd management, and has gone to Exit Only quite a few times during various service disruptions (the flooding in June was a particularly mad one). There are several pinch points around the station, mostly in the subway, but usually after 5 or 10 minutes the passenger flow is free enough to allow entrance again.

When the Tube is on strike there are many more people who use CLJ as an alternative, mostly heading towards platforms 1 & 2. As alluded to in earlier posts, the Overground provides an alternative to West Brompton, Kensington Olympia, Shepherds Bush, Willesden Junction (for Euston), Camden, Highbury and Islington, and Stratford, all via the West/North London Line, whilst services from platform 2 serve Shoreditch for the City via Canada Water and Whitechapel. Normally the Southern services from 16 and 17 supplement those trains on the WLL but are not advertised - this allows staff to locally control passenger flows, usually moving some of the back of the queue from the overbridge down to 16 or 17 as appropriate to relieve some of the pressure on platform 1. Those Southern services did not run due to the ongoing Southern issues, so everyone will have joined the line for the Overground with no other alternative.

Whereas normally the other pinch points for crowds building up tend to dissipate within a few minutes (as trains come and go), it would appear from photos that there were just too many crowds in too many places and this didn't happen, and so a decision was made to close the station. I suspect that the subway won't have cleared as quickly as usual if the trains from Wimbledon were so full that people couldn't board, whilst the overbridge was already full of people waiting for the Overground thereby (despite the crowd control barriers) blocking the paths of interchanging people arriving on 3 & 4. Operationally, closing the station is really unusual as the best way to move people on is by getting them on trains as soon as they can get on the platforms, but once the platforms are full to the point of people standing on the edges, there is really no other option left than to temporarily shut the whole thing down.

With circa 30 million entries and exits a year and circa 30 million interchanges a year (a ratio that no other station matches) it is not really a surprise that simply going Exit Only doesn't always solve the overcrowding issues. But with regard to the question "Is Clapham Junction on a normal day a disaster waiting to happen?" the answer is no - it's a busy place but there are plenty of measures in place to keep it flowing as best as possible and keep it as safe as possible for all who travel through there.

By contrast, the evening peak was very quiet apart from a couple of incidents on the SWT side - but the evening peak is always a 'softer' event than the morning i.e. everyone wants to be in the office for 9am, but afterwards they all gradually go home at different times and (if arriving from the Overground on platforms 1 & 2) dissipate across the whole station for their trains home rather than joining a line for one platform.

I hope these thoughts help explain a little bit about the workings of CLJ during disruption...


ThePhantomPhish

Welcome to the forum with a good first post!
 

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
Clapham Junction was dangerously overcrowded at one stage, as in "dangerously packed on the platforms with very slow movement into/out of the station", carrying more people than anyone has seen for many years. There was no plan to close it initially but the decision was taken as a safety precaution.

Wimbledon was severely overcrowded in the morning peak too, buggering up the slow line through Clapham Junction and providing much less capacity for people who board at Clapham due to the extra passengers already onboard.

Closing the station was the absolute correct thing to do given today's circumstances. If that did not happen, chances are someone would likely end up under a train.
So it was closed on saftey grounds. A lot of the disputes revolve around safety issues. I'm not wishing to discuss them in this thread , just note this it all links to safety.
 
Last edited:

RichardN

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2013
Messages
430
I used to change from Southern to SWT to go to Vauxhall. When the underground was on strike it was actually easier to board trains on platform 10 than on non strike days. Trains always arrive rammed in the morning peak, but during a strike, more passengers switch to Southern to get to Victoria instead of staying on and changing at Vauxhall, meaning more space to board.

bb21 said:
Wimbledon was severely overcrowded in the morning peak too, buggering up the slow line through Clapham Junction and providing much less capacity for people who board at Clapham due to the extra passengers already onboard.

In a normal peak trains are completely full arriving at CLJ. Not sure there is much scope for even higher loading on underground strike days, unless the problems at Wimbledon cause the throughput of trains to drop.
 
Last edited:

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
My train was also affected, however this was a fast Caterham to London Victoria peak hour service (1P65 operated by a short formed 455 823), so I did not have the luxury of getting off at Battersea Park to get a South West Trains service which I needed to get. We were informed by the driver when we were passing Balham that the service would not call at Clapham Junction due to the station being evacuated. So I ended up stuck at London Victoria until the station reopened. No wonder I saw a London Overground 378 approaching Battersea Park!
You might have been better off walking to Waterloo than waiting. I think it takes about 30 minutes as I have done it.

Dont think TfL provide a map though as I think k their maps might stop at 20 minutes.
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,478
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
So it was closed on saftey grounds. A lot of the disputes revolve around safety issues. I'm not wishing to discuss them in this thread , just note this it all links to safety.

Of course - many things do relate to safety. I don't think it is necessarily useful to equate station crowding safety with DOO, etc.
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,438
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
I do recall an extremely scary evening twenty years ago or a bit more. Waterloo closed late afternoon - because of a substation fire, I think. I was advised to go to Clapham Junction to get a train to Woking, change there for Portsmouth. Managed to get on platform 9 at CJ and a couple of trains did leave (very slowly and carefully). At this point Waterloo reopened and I have vivid memory of teetering on the platform edge, with pressure of people behind and slam door handles whipping past at 40 mph. It really was very frightening - so if modern safety culture would prevent this, don't knock it!
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,748
What effect on capacity did filling half the width of the footbridge with retail units have?
 

infobleep

On Moderation
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
13,452
What effect on capacity did filling half the width of the footbridge with retail units have?
I hasn't considered that. I guess the station closure is so infrequent they deem the retail units of more monetary benefit. I don't know.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,478
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
I hasn't considered that. I guess the station closure is so infrequent they deem the retail units of more monetary benefit. I don't know.

Yes, and much though I detest retail units occupying valuable passenger space, given that the footbridge's width was so enormous that it exceeded almost all the platforms' widths, in this case there was probably spare space. In nearly four decades of using Clapham Junction I have never seen the bridge anywhere near full even in the worst times. I also wonder what its designed weight limit is, for example when absolutely crammed with passengers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top