Unpaid Fair Notice Help

[Harv]

Dear All,

I hope we all have had a lovely Christmas and New Year!

I wish I could have said the same for me, as I planned a 2 day stay in London with my partner to celebrate the New Year and as presents for each other. To get away from work, and study.

So anyway we got to London Liverpool Street fine on the outbound journey and enjoyed our stay. However, things got worse on the return leg of our journey.

As we were travelling around London, we were tubing from Oxford Circus. We had literally boarded the train and before the doors closed - an announcement was made to evacuate the station immediately. The doors on the train closed and moved along. This was very scary for us, as we have never had this happen to us. We are very new to travelling, and with the terror threats high it was very scary. We, however, found out later it was a trespasser on the tracks. We also were stressed with constantly re-evaluating our travel plans due to someone falling on the Victoria Line and many planned engineering works. I think all of this got to us so we decided to leave early. We had explained our situation to staff within the station and they said it was fine to do so. So we boarded.

On the return journey, around 45 minutes before we were to arrive in London, the guard came around and asked for our tickets which we presented. However, our tickets were valid at 9:30PM, rather than 7:30PM which was the train we had got on. We explained to him, and he didn't really care and started threatening us. We didn't have the £130.80 that he had requested and repeatedly said we were breaking the rules in a horrible attitude and was threatening us with criminal records and fines. We were shaking and was so scared about the threats and allegations made. He said it was unfair that we were to board before, and that he had already fined 2 people like this already. He said there was him and another guard but he left earlier, however this train wasn't long, nor full - it was mostly empty. He then offered to charge only one of us (£65.40), which we were shocked in the price and had no money on us to pay it. He marched me down the front of the train in front of everyone, making me look like a fare avoider.

What can, and should I do? Thank you in advance for your help.

[*]The stations where you started & finished your journey; London Liverpool Street to Norwich
[*]The stations where you changed trains (if applicable); N/A
[*]If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details; Advance, London Terminals, Norwich, AP GRT ANG ONLY
[*]What happened in any encounter with railway staff; Above
[*]The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
UNPAID FAIR NOTICE (abellio greater anglia)
Reason - 07 Restricted Ticket
Total - £65.40

 

[najaB]

An Unpaid Fare Notice is an invoice for the fare due, nothing more. Unless you are confident that you could identify the staff member who told you it was okay to board it would be best to pay it.

If you feel strongly about the incident and how it was handled then *separately* make a complaint to Customer Service.

 

[crehld]

Your story is a little muddled, but from what I understand you were on an advance ticket for the 2130 train, but you boarded the 1930 train for which it wasn't valid.

I can't account for the guard's attitude - I wasn't there. On occasion they can be rude and defensive, but to be fair it does seem they were sympathetic to your situation and cut you a fair bit of slack by only issuing the unpaid fare notice for half the amount due. It seems like it was a compromise.

I'm inclined to agree with najaB's advice. Pay the amount due to settle the matter as soon as possible. If you were given misleading advice at Liverpool Street, or you were given permission to board then this does need following up with a complaint to Abellio Greater Anglia about the service you received and the misleading information you were given. Do this after you've paid the outstanding fare. This may (or may not) result in some sort of goodwill gesture which compensates some of the extra money you had to pay. Try to keep complaint letters short and to the point without waffling - it will stand much more chance of success.

 

[Harv]

Hi najaB, unfortunately I can not confirm the identity of the member of staff who advised me it was okay to board. The train was about to leave so it was a rush scenario.

I can understand they have a job to do, but to start convicting me of wrong doing and threatening the fines and prison sentence was a bit OTT. I have no intention of cheating said system and getting away with not paying for my travel. I always pay for using services.

After writing the ticket, he put the time down as 19:30 - rather than the time he had asked me for my tickets which was a lot later in the journey.

Firstly, I refused to sign the UPN - he was aggressive saying that I will not be able to appeal by doing so. So I felt threatened and was forced into signing the UPN.

I asked him for his name to make a complaint and he refused to give me his name and show me his ID.

After some researching, it seems he would only be able to charge us the difference, as according to this document. We did offer to pay the difference - he refused and said we had to pay the full fare (see page 11)

[https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA - Penalty Fare Policy 2002.pdf]

Our tickets were priced at £5.95W each for this journey, and from the below article - we would had to have paid £20 or double the full price of the journey and would have to leave at Stratford. However, since we weren't asked for tickets until around 2-3 stops before getting into Norwich I am not sure how this works?

My other query is, he said something about if we refused to pay that he would have to hand us over to another Inspector at Norwich. Since he refused to give me details I do not see that he was an authorised RPI?

Thank you for your replies so far.

 

[rs101]

In situations like this, is there any value is asking the 'man on the platform' who gives permission to travel to endorse the ticket in some way? Even if it's just with an employee number or similar?

 

[najaB]

In situations like this, is there any value is asking the 'man on the platform' who gives permission to travel to endorse the ticket in some way? Even if it's just with an employee number or similar?

Yes.

Firstly because it gives you evidence if questioned later. Secondly, people are less likely to give duff advice if they know it can be traced back to them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Classic case of "man on the platform said". Firstly, I am not unsympathetic to the OP, and I recognise that sometimes the "man on the platform" really does give bad advice!

Why would you think it was okay to use a fixed time ticket two hours earlier? On what grounds do you think the staff member said it was okay? If you thought it was from the goodness of his heart or discretion, why would you proceed without evidence of his permission? I think you have been quite naive - but everyone is entitled to be naive once. The forum will help you try and get a good outcome.

Who was the staff member? What colour uniform did they have and where were they?

Unfortunately, a UFN is not terribly easy to dispute from the outset. I agree with other posters that you should pay this (it is not even for the full fare!). Then, take the mater up with Greater Anglia after the fact.

If you can provide details of your interaction with the mystery staff member at Liverpool Street, we can probably give some better advice and help you write a letter to Greater Anglia. There are several posters here who have either had experience in answering those sorts of letters from a train company's perspective, or who otherwise have valuable advice about how to structure your letter to them.

 

[6Gman]

Dear All,

We had explained our situation to staff within the station and they said it was fine to do so. So we boarded.

This is the crux of the issue. If you have an advance ticket you are normally tied to the specific departure. Staff will sometimes show discretion* but permission has to be given by an "authorised" person, which is not clearly defined. I would consider the train's guard to be "authorised". Personally I would consider barrier staff to be "authorised" (though there are people who would argue that point). I would not consider random members of station staff to be "authorised". There's also the possibility that there was some confusion in the conversation you had with staff { 19.30 confused with 9.30 for example }. In any event "the man on the platform said..." is hard to prove.

As others have said paying the charge raised seems sensible - if you're unhappy with the behaviour of staff take it up with Customer Services.

* As an example of discretion I was once on a train out of Liverpool on which a group of youngsters were travelling, with adult helpers. They were booked on a 1734 departure and had made arrangements for taxis to bring them to Lime Street. Three of the taxis turned up on time; the fourth turned up late. So 3/4 of the party were there for the 1734; but 1/4 were missing. So they spoke to the conductor of the 1734, who told them to wait for their travelling companions and catch the 1804. But he would have been within his rights to say "tough; miss your booked train then tickets are void".

 

[Haywain]

Leaving aside the issue of what the "man on the platform" said, it is important to understand what the UFN is charging. Having paid £5.95 each for Advance tickets, presumably with a railcard discount, these tickets cannot really be changed because the admin fee on a change is £10, so it is always cheaper to buy a new ticket. It would appear that new tickets would have cost the two of you £34.40 each, again with a railcard discount. The UFN has been issued for an amount £65.40 which is the Anytime Single fare, undiscounted, for one person. You are therefore being asked to pay less than you should have been asked for under any circumstances. There would seem to be little point in getting hung up about Penalty Fares as that would be issued for £20 or twice the full single fare to the next station stop. From what you have said it is unlikely that this would have been less than the amount of the UFN, and that one of you would have been 'let off'. So, whilst you may feel you have been treated badly, you are being charged something less than should have been payable under any other circumstances.

 

[najaB]

Hi najaB, unfortunately I can not confirm the identity of the member of staff who advised me it was okay to board. The train was about to leave so it was a rush scenario.

Then pay the UFN. Your ticket wasn't valid and you have no way of proving that you were given permission to travel (or even of raising reasonable doubt).

As I said earlier, a complaint to Customer Service about the way you were dealt with might result in a goodwill gesture.

 

[Harv]

Thank you all for your help so far.

As suggested, I will just pay the notice. After that, I'll complain to Abellio Greater Anglia with our level of service. I'm not expecting anything, but you never know.

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID, and according to the FCC they have to show on request? Would that be grounds for appeal that the person who issued the notice was not authorised to do so?

I'm not trying to appeal and be stubborn, just feeling annoyed that we made an innocent mistake.

 

[najaB]

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID, and according to the FCC they have to show on request? Would that be grounds for appeal that the person who issued the notice was not authorised to do so?

I'm not trying to appeal and be stubborn, just feeling annoyed that we made an innocent mistake.

You don't have anything to appeal - a UFN is an invoice, nothing more. It's just a bill for a ticket - and don't forget that it's for less than it should have been for. There is no accusation of wrongdoing and paying it admits no liability.

I think you are getting confused with Penalty Fares which can only be issued by authorised persons.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you all for your help so far.

As suggested, I will just pay the notice. After that, I'll complain to Abellio Greater Anglia with our level of service. I'm not expecting anything, but you never know.

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID, and according to the FCC they have to show on request? Would that be grounds for appeal that the person who issued the notice was not authorised to do so?

I'm not trying to appeal and be stubborn, just feeling annoyed that we made an innocent mistake.

A train guard doesn't have to show you ID. You weren't issued a Penalty Fare.

 

[6Gman]

Thank you all for your help so far.

As suggested, I will just pay the notice. After that, I'll complain to Abellio Greater Anglia with our level of service. I'm not expecting anything, but you never know.

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID, and according to the FCC they have to show on request? Would that be grounds for appeal that the person who issued the notice was not authorised to do so?

I'm not trying to appeal and be stubborn, just feeling annoyed that we made an innocent mistake.

But really the crux of your complaint is that you were misinformed at Liverpool Street - but by whom? And what exactly was said?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think all of this got to us so we decided to leave early. We had explained our situation to staff within the station and they said it was fine to do so. So we boarded.

This is the bit I can't quite follow - what does speaking "to staff within the station" mean? It implies more than one member of staff, for example.

Platform staff? Barrier staff? Booking office?

 

[furlong]

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID

Are you quite sure about that? If true, the inspector should be given some urgent "words of advice" as no genuine inspector can refuse such a request without themselves risking prosecution/dismissal.

Specifically, if the inspector was requiring that you show your ticket under byelaw 18(2), which is normally cited if you ask what authority they have to ask to see your ticket,

A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

then he or she is subject to byelaw 24(3)

An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

with a maximum penalty

Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and [...] may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

We had explained our situation to staff within the station and they said it was fine to do so.

What question did you ask though? If it was that you had a reservation for the 9:30pm, could you catch the 7:30pm instead, the answer is yes. If you tell them that you have an Advance ticket for the 9:30pm, the answer should be no.

 

[furlong]

My only fear is that the guard refused to show me his ID

How would you prove this? How would you prove you were given permission to catch the earlier train - can you supply enough details to enable the train company to identify the railway employee concerned? You worried about not seeing the ID of the guard, but didn't worry about not noting down the ID of the person giving you authority to travel without a valid ticket? You agreed to the UFN without adding any qualification to your signature? The train company holds all the cards.

Perhaps you should send a cheque accompanied by a polite letter setting out the reasons why you think it would be wrong for them to cash it in the hope that you might be lucky and they might agree.

 

[reb0118]

If it was the guard in charge of the train that issued the UFN, then he can easily be traced. The number of the UFN may be logged to his shift sheet, but more simply the TCS will have a log of who worked the train.

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[Haywain]

If it was the guard in charge of the train that issued the UFN, then he can easily be traced. The number of the UFN may be logged to his shift sheet, but more simply the TCS will have a log of who worked the train.

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And the UFN should have the guard's name or number on it. In any event, it will be easy for the TOC to trace which guard worked the train if they deem it necessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What question did you ask though? If it was that you had a reservation for the 9:30pm, could you catch the 7:30pm instead, the answer is yes. If you tell them that you have an Advance ticket for the 9:30pm, the answer should be no.

The correct answer to the first question should always be that it depends on the tickets held, and it would be better to see the ticket before answering.

 

[reb0118]

The correct answer to the first question should always be that it depends on the tickets held, and it would be better to see the ticket before answering.

Correct. But even better would be to refuse to give information and to refer them to the booking office/guard as required.

I remember a party of four on my Aberdeen Express - three of whom were on a Group Save Advance but on the wrong train. "We asked the man on the platform and he said it was ok". It turns out that the fourth person in the group was on a Club55 ticket (off peak but flexible) and it was he that had asked.

It's not always simple.



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[Haywain]

Correct. But even better would be to refuse to give information and to refer them to the booking office/guard as required.

I don't agree. If you are able to answer the question when provided with the appropriate information, you should do so. Asking for that information (to see the ticket) is exactly what I do on a regular basis, regardless of where I am on a station.

 

[reb0118]

I don't agree. If you are able to answer the question when provided with the appropriate information, you should do so. Asking for that information (to see the ticket) is exactly what I do on a regular basis, regardless of where I am on a station.

I agree. I wasn't very clear I should have said refuse to answer (politely of course) unless you can give knowledgeable advice.

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