General bus fare questions (Greater Manc operators)

[Gathursty]

I very infrequently use the bus and as such, have no idea until I get on the bus, how much the fare is to where I'm going or indeed the next stop. I also seem to be sold a daysaver nowadays unlike when I was much younger, your ticket would say the specific bus stop you wanted.

Keeping things simple, Stagecoach are Wigan's biggest bus operator. Use them as an example.

1) Are bus fares set like train fares? eg: this bus stop to this bus stop is so much.
2) If no, how are the bus fares worked out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

1) Are bus fares set like train fares? eg: this bus stop to this bus stop is so much.
2) If no, how are the bus fares worked out?

Buses are traditionally known as "stage carriages", and that's because of how the fares generally work.

A route is split into a set of fare stages. These comprise one or more stops - typically about 5, but it varies.

So let's say you have a route:

A - b - c - D - e - f - G

A, D, and G are the fare stages.

You can then define your fares from this. The simplest way is that you have a fare for one stage, one for two etc. The other way is a fare table showing (numbers are £):-

A D G
A 1 2 3
D 2 1 2
G 3 2 1

where you can set different fares for journeys between different fare stages. The bus company is required by law to have such fare tables available for inspection.

Day, week, month etc tickets are just market priced as the operator wishes, as are flat fares.

 

[Gathursty]

Thanks for that Neil. You learn something new every day!

 

[daodao]

I very infrequently use the bus and as such, have no idea until I get on the bus, how much the fare is to where I'm going or indeed the next stop. I also seem to be sold a daysaver nowadays unlike when I was much younger, your ticket would say the specific bus stop you wanted.

Keeping things simple, Stagecoach are Wigan's biggest bus operator. Use them as an example.

1) Are bus fares set like train fares? eg: this bus stop to this bus stop is so much.
2) If no, how are the bus fares worked out?

The operator-specific bus-only day tickets in Greater Manchester are relatively cheap and are often sold in lieu of return tickets which are typically the same price for journeys of 5+ miles each way. However, they cannot be used on other operators' buses, which limits their usefulness, particularly where that company (e.g. Arriva) only runs a few routes.

 

[northwichcat]

Day, week, month etc tickets are just market priced as the operator wishes, as are flat fares.

If it's a contracted service the council or PTE usually sets the single fares and the operator sets the price of the day and weekly tickets.

 

[ashworth]

Buses are traditionally known as "stage carriages", and that's because of how the fares generally work.

A route is split into a set of fare stages. These comprise one or more stops - typically about 5, but it varies.

If only my local bus company could go back to the days where there were only about 5 stops within each fare stage. That may still be the case in many areas, especially in large urban areas but it is certainly not the case here in Nottinghamshire on most of Trent/Barton routes in the more rural areas.

I can remember the days on my local route when there was a fare stage approx every half dozen stops. These were marked on the bus stops and it was not unusual for people to regularly walk a couple of stops down the road to the next fare stage to board the bus to pay a lower fare. Over the years intermediate fare stages have slowly been removed and now it can sometimes be a few miles between fare stages rather than a few stops. The difference in price between one of these long distance fare stages can be huge and has made some short journeys very expensive if you happen to travel across one or more of these fare stages.

On routes that pass through large towns, the whole town is now counted as one fare stage where it used to be divided up into numerous stages. Then the next stages either side of the town may stretch many miles to include several villages. I made the mistake a few weeks ago of getting on a bus one stop outside a town boundary and had to pay £3.30 for a single ticket rather than £1.80. The village I live in is 3 stops outside one of these large town fare stages. Getting on the bus to Nottingham from the village costs £7.20 return whilst a ten minute walk to a stop over the fare stage reduces the price to £4.30. With the old short fare stages the difference was often only a small amount which you didn't mind paying for the convenience of getting closer to home.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Stagecoach used to publish their Manchester fare tables on their website but have now replaced them with a nearly useless journey planner / fare finder

First and Arriva never did publish their fares online

As Neil says, you've a legal right to consult the fare tables on board. I recommend doing this the next time you board a bus, and taking a few minutes to study them ;D

 

[Gathursty]

Stagecoach used to publish their Manchester fare tables on their website but have now replaced them with a nearly useless journey planner / fare finder

First and Arriva never did publish their fares online

As Neil says, you've a legal right to consult the fare tables on board. I recommend doing this the next time you board a bus, and taking a few minutes to study them ;D

Cue the dirty looks when I hold up the bus going to a nearby housing estate to inspect the fares table that I'm sure the bus driver will have no idea what I'm on about.

 

[radamfi]

I can remember the days on my local route when there was a fare stage approx every half dozen stops. These were marked on the bus stops and it was not unusual for people to regularly walk a couple of stops down the road to the next fare stage to board the bus to pay a lower fare. Over the years intermediate fare stages have slowly been removed and now it can sometimes be a few miles between fare stages rather than a few stops. The difference in price between one of these long distance fare stages can be huge and has made some short journeys very expensive if you happen to travel across one or more of these fare stages.

The problem with a stage based system is there needs there needs to be a conversation between the driver and the passenger to work out the fare, causing unnecessary delays to the service. If there are fewer fare stages, it is a little easier to work out which destination stage is required. But if you go to the trouble of having a small number of fare stages you might as well convert to a zonal system for single fares which means that single tickets can be bought off bus, also enabling penalty-free interchange within zones. Obviously with a flat fare the fare is known in advance. This is clearly the least "fair" fare system, but is the most efficient and cost savings gained by using this method can be passed onto the passenger.

In some areas, First offer carnets of 10 single tickets through a mobile app even though they still use a stage-based system. Therefore it is only worth using the app if the cash single fare is above a tenth of the price of the carnet, meaning that you need to know what the fare is in advance..

Zonal and flat fares are generally used in most well developed urban transport systems worldwide. Hardly anywhere uses a stage-based fare system.

If you use a touch in touch out smartcard system then you can have a different fare between every pair of stops without causing delays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Zonal and flat fares are generally used in most well developed urban transport systems worldwide. Hardly anywhere uses a stage-based fare system.

If you use a touch in touch out smartcard system then you can have a different fare between every pair of stops without causing delays.

Smartcards with touching in and out are probably the answer to making a staged or kilometric fare system work without the delay of the conversation.

 

[ashworth]

If you use a touch in touch out smartcard system then you can have a different fare between every pair of stops without causing delays.

Trent Barton, my local bus company, have a touch in touch out smartcard system called Mango. However, although on your journey history it lists each individual stop where you touch in and touch out, you are still charged the fares relating to their very lengthy fare stages. I can't see Trent Barton changing this to where you are charged by distance or the number of stops travelled because they would loose too much money. I live at the end of a very lengthy fare stage where I am charged the same price as from almost 6 miles further up the route. Then once you go past that fare stage the fare drops by almost 50%. There is no gradual change of fares acccording to distance but huge jumps in price as you cross into the next fare stage covering another unnecessarily lengthy section of the route.

 

[Howardh]

Where I live, if I go to the stop at the bottom of my street, it's a fare of £2.60 into town (1.75 miles) but from the top it's either £1 (126) or £1.20 (519) for exactly the same distance.

Fares should be displayed on every stop!

As for Greater Manchester, a bus/train off-peak day travelcard is £6.90, 2 bus rides + off peak DR to Manchester from home = £10.30 if I use the 575 bus to the station and back.

It's bonkers.

 

[radamfi]

Trent Barton, my local bus company, have a touch in touch out smartcard system called Mango. However, although on your journey history it lists each individual stop where you touch in and touch out, you are still charged the fares relating to their very lengthy fare stages.

The issue here is that the Mango fares are based upon the cash fares. In the Netherlands, fares are based on the formula

0.89 + (number of km x price per km)

so that is much closer to paying for what you use. It is still possible to pay the driver cash but it is usually much more expensive and set at a high level to discourage cash usage and is usually a flat fare, or for longer distances, multiples of that flat fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has occurred to me that in general the UK smartcard systems have tried to replicate existing fare systems (and done this very badly), whereas the Dutch just started afresh. I think we should consider doing the same - a new start with a fare system *designed* for contactless payment cards.

 

[Howardh]

It has occurred to me that in general the UK smartcard systems have tried to replicate existing fare systems (and done this very badly), whereas the Dutch just started afresh. I think we should consider doing the same - a new start with a fare system *designed* for contactless payment cards.

Yes. It shouldn't be a case of three rides and you're better off with an all-day ticket.
But immensely complicated with so many different companies involved. If we had one company per region (eg NW) we could have a zone system like wot the Dutch used to have, so travel through two zones you are charged 2 + 1, 5 zones 5 + 1, but there's a maximum and you didn't get charged any higher.
Presumably that would work with touch in and out, so on Monday;
Journey 1 Ti...3 + 1....To
Journey 2 Ti...2 + 1....To
Journey 3 Ti...4 + 1....To
Therefore the charge is for 12 zones - but if the daily cap is 10 zones that's what you pay for.
That was the basis for the wonderful Strippenkarte system!

 

[radamfi]

Yes. It shouldn't be a case of three rides and you're better off with an all-day ticket.

With some operators, for example First in Greater Manchester, single fares have risen so much that often a day ticket can be worth it for just one trip! I suppose making single fares so outrageously expensive so that hardly anyone buys them is one way of relieving the problems associated with stage-based fares.

 

[pjnathanail]

There are of course two sound commercial reasons for increasing single fares by disproportionately higher amounts. Firstly, a passenger making a single journey is less likely to be able to switch to other forms of transport - in particular, if they only want to go one way, they can't really go by car. Secondly, in the case of a passenger making a return journey with various operators to choose from, or indeed a journey where the passenger doesn't know if they'll need to come back or not when they travel out, a low extra cost for a return encourages the passenger to purchase it, thus tying them to that operator for the return trip too.

 

[nerd]

There are of course two sound commercial reasons for increasing single fares by disproportionately higher amounts. Firstly, a passenger making a single journey is less likely to be able to switch to other forms of transport - in particular, if they only want to go one way, they can't really go by car. Secondly, in the case of a passenger making a return journey with various operators to choose from, or indeed a journey where the passenger doesn't know if they'll need to come back or not when they travel out, a low extra cost for a return encourages the passenger to purchase it, thus tying them to that operator for the return trip too.

But equally such fares are clearly contrary to the public interest and the long-term growth and integration of public transport systems.

Raising single fares, while discounting day and weekly fares, has the effect of inhibiting cross-operator trips; consequently reducing the scope for growing public transport as an overall offer.

Moreover, there is a strong public disbenefit in prospective riders not getting on the first bus that comes along towards their destination. This reduces bus occupancy - and hence distorts consumption of road-space and stop space (a high-cost public resource), and imposes unnecessary delay into journey times.

Ideally, public transport should allow seamless transition across operators and modes; with no cost penalty or advantage either way.

Effectively, fare setting in the deregulated bus market follows monopolistic principles - as almost all routes are monopolies, and operators try so far as possible to remove competition (by fair means of foul) wherever possible. Hence - in accordance with standard monopoly pricing theory - operators are motivated to restrict services and drive up fares; so as to prevent the overall market from growing to a point where a competitor might find market entry an economic possibility. Fares are set so as to grab as much as possible of the existing market; while avoiding pursuing any growth in the overall market.

Sometimes, on very particular high volume routes, an operator can buck the general principle - as with First's 'Quids In' flat rate single fare along Oxford Road. But that needs deep pockets, and is only done very selectively.

 

[Deerfold]

Sometimes, on very particular high volume routes, an operator can buck the general principle - as with First's 'Quids In' flat rate single fare along Oxford Road. But that needs deep pockets, and is only done very selectively.

And what a coincidence that it's the same fare that Stagecoach's Magicbus charge.

 

[nerd]

And what a coincidence that it's the same fare that Stagecoach's Magicbus charge.

Exactly; when a competitor tries to enter the market with a low standard fare; the monopolistic operator will always match it; even though this hits their own profit.

So long as the operator is big enough; they can always recoup losses from predatory pricing on competitive routes by increasing fares on non-competitive routes.

But this is much more difficult in a growing market, as then small-scale opertors would be able to challenge the big-boys.

Hence deregulation tends to concentration of operators; and tacit cartels in which most routes are run by one or another unchallenged. All the while keeping general fares sufficiently high to reduce growing the market overall; while not so high as to create space for competition from small-fry.