4 lines into 2

[richieb1971]

Is it coincidence that approx 50-70 miles north of London our 3 main routes go from 4 tracks to 2?

WCML - North of Wolverton
ECML - North of Huntingdon
MML - North of Sharnbrook (Was Glendon)

I can explain the WCML split for the Northampton loop. But I cannot explain the ECML which has 2 tracks for 15 odd miles and then goes back to 4. Also the MML seems to do exactly the same, it goes from 4 to 3, then down 2 and then back up to 4 again.

I'd hazard a guess its because of route splitting before the Beeching closures. I know the Corby stretch was used for Passenger services to Nottingham back in the old days.

 

[snowball]

Wasn't there some 2-track on the ECML quite close to London until the 1950s (much closer than Welwyn viaduct, though of course supplemented by theHertford loop)?

 

[theageofthetra]

Until completion Borough market junction? Under 2 miles from Charing Cross.

 

[AlanFry1]

In a way the Bethnal Green bottleneck of the WAML

 

[mr_jrt]

The ECML was two track through the tunnels around Potters Bar, across the Digswell Viaduct, through Sandy, and 3 tracks north of Huntington (I think). The upgrades in the 1950s added new tunnel bores at Potters Bar, the closure of the Varsity line meant Sandy station could be rebuilt, with a new four track section replacing the old Great Northern station's two track station, but IIRC, the bit north of Sandy was reduced from 3 tracks down to two some time later (1970s?), and finally the reduction was baked in with electrification in the late 1980s by placing masts in the way of any eventual four tracking - something to do with marshy ground?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The MML used to be 4 tracks to Glendon North Junction, where the line to Corby branches off. Hopefully this will be the case again within the next 5-10 years due to the rising freight demands on the (currently) single slow line down to Sharnbrook Junction.

The line north towards Leicester though Market Harborough had a few short sections with more than two tracks, but nothing worth bringing into the discussion. Mostly parallel railways around Market Harborough, though there were 4 tracks down from Wigston South Junction to Kilby Bridge as well (3 currently).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I'd hazard a guess its because of route splitting before the Beeching closures.

Wasn't the problem on the line out of Kings Cross that the Great Northern and then the LNER were always a bit low on capital and couldn't afford new viaduct and tunnel works? British Railways filled some, but not all the gaps in the 1950s. By contrast the Great Western had four tracked the line from Paddington to Didcot in Victorian times, including the Hanwell viaduct and Maidenhead Bridge.

 

[JN114]

It isn't just north of London - in the west, 4 tracks reduce to 2 at Didcot (52mi from Paddington) and 4 tracks also reduce to 2 at Worting Jn (near Basingstoke, 50mi from London)

In all cases it matches where the majority of "suburban" services either diverge from the main line or terminate. Appreciate there's a chicken and egg scenario in play, where suburban services may go further if the infrastructure was there to support it, but these cases are all 60 - 90 minutes from London for stopping services.

 

[The Ham]

It isn't just north of London - in the west, 4 tracks reduce to 2 at Didcot (52mi from Paddington) and 4 tracks also reduce to 2 at Worting Jn (near Basingstoke, 50mi from London)

In all cases it matches where the majority of "suburban" services either diverge from the main line or terminate. Appreciate there's a chicken and egg scenario in play, where suburban services may go further if the infrastructure was there to support it, but these cases are all 60 - 90 minutes from London for stopping services.

The Basingstoke reduction to two tracks is less of a problem (at least historicity) in that, even between Woking and Basingstoke the Portsmouth, Alton and Salisbury/Exeter services have all split from the main line towards Southampton. (Admittedly there is now growing demand for more services beyond what would fit).

 

[341o2]

not sure that Basingstoke qualifies as a "reduction" as two tracks continue to Southampton and the other two to Salisbury, Welwyn North does as it is a two track section in otherwise four track

 

[RichmondCommu]

The ECML was two track through the tunnels around Potters Bar, across the Digswell Viaduct, through Sandy, and 3 tracks north of Huntington (I think). The upgrades in the 1950s added new tunnel bores at Potters Bar, the closure of the Varsity line meant Sandy station could be rebuilt, with a new four track section replacing the old Great Northern station's two track station, but IIRC, the bit north of Sandy was reduced from 3 tracks down to two some time later (1970s?), and finally the reduction was baked in with electrification in the late 1980s by placing masts in the way of any eventual four tracking - something to do with marshy ground?

I may well be wrong here but I thought that it had originally been four track north of Huntington which was then reduced to three following electrification and that there are now plans to reinstate the fourth track? I'm pretty certain that something was mentioned about this in a recent Railway Magazine edition but I'm away from home this weekend and so cannot check.

 

[Steve Harris]

I may well be wrong here but I thought that it had originally been four track north of Huntington which was then reduced to three following electrification and that there are now plans to reinstate the fourth track? I'm pretty certain that something was mentioned about this in a recent Railway Magazine edition but I'm away from home this weekend and so cannot check.

Yes, you are right. I can remember 4 tracks North of Huntingdon in the late 70's/early 80's. I believe the up slow was rarely used, so to save money it was lifted before electrification. Then the OHLE masts were placed on the its trackbed.

However it is actually 3 track from Huntingdon to Holme jnc (the down slow still being in situ) then 2 track to Fletton jnc just south of Peterborough than you do today.

I also believe the thought at the time was as Conington tip was closing that no more capacity would be required.

You have to remember that the HST'S at the time had a calling pattern which took in Stevenage, Huntingdon, Peterborough and there was a shuttle between Huntingdon and Hitchin calling all stations to connect in with the electrics to be able to travel to London. Therefore you had a fewer number of services between Huntingdon and Peterborough.

 

[ac6000cw]

Is it coincidence that approx 50-70 miles north of London our 3 main routes go from 4 tracks to 2?

WCML - North of Wolverton
ECML - North of Huntingdon
MML - North of Sharnbrook (Was Glendon)

I can explain the WCML split for the Northampton loop. But I cannot explain the ECML which has 2 tracks for 15 odd miles and then goes back to 4. Also the MML seems to do exactly the same, it goes from 4 to 3, then down 2 and then back up to 4 again.

I'd hazard a guess its because of route splitting before the Beeching closures. I know the Corby stretch was used for Passenger services to Nottingham back in the old days.

It's just a simple case of matching infrastructure capacity to traffic needs - no point in spending money maintaining infrastructure that you don't need for the foreseeable future (better to spend it somewhere else with better earning potential e.g. new rolling stock or electrification).

The MML was originally enlarged to 4 tracks by the Midland Railway to cater for the flood of slow freight trains carrying coal etc. to London. The extra tracks were built on a lower-gradient alignment over Sharnbrook summit to allow heavier trains to be run. When most of that freight traffic disappeared BR sensibly removed one of the tracks to reduce maintenance and re-signalling costs (it was worth keeping one low-gradient track for heavier freight, otherwise I suspect it might have been reduced to just two tracks).

North of Peterborough, the Great Northern partnered with the Great Eastern to develop the GN/GE Joint Line via Lincoln, which provided it with a route for slow freight traffic south of Doncaster instead of four-tracking the ECML between those points.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, you are right. I can remember 4 tracks North of Huntingdon in the late 70's/early 80's. I believe the up slow was rarely used, so to save money it was lifted before electrification. Then the OHLE masts were placed on the its trackbed.

However it is actually 3 track from Huntingdon to Holme jnc (the down slow still being in situ) then 2 track to Fletton jnc just south of Peterborough than you do today.

I also believe the thought at the time was as Conington tip was closing that no more capacity would be required.

You have to remember that the HST'S at the time had a calling pattern which took in Stevenage, Huntingdon, Peterborough and there was a shuttle between Huntingdon and Hitchin calling all stations to connect in with the electrics to be able to travel to London. Therefore you had a fewer number of services between Huntingdon and Peterborough.

i'm sure you know a lot more about it than me, but apart from some early morning commuter trains, did HSTs ever call at Huntingdon on regular inter-city trains?

Prior to electrification, I agree, the local service between Huntingdon and Hitchin was almost non-existent for much of the day.

 

[Steve Harris]

i'm sure you know a lot more about it than me, but apart from some early morning commuter trains, did HSTs ever call at Huntingdon on regular inter-city trains?

Prior to electrification, I agree, the local service between Huntingdon and Hitchin was almost non-existent for much of the day.

Indeed they did. I could tell you exactly if i hadn't of thrown out my timetable. Huntingdon used to get a better service than Stevenage and IIRC probably had something like 50% of the ECML services stop there.

As for the shuttle I believe it was either hourly or 2 hourly using a Cambridge based 101 met camm. Sometimes it used to turn back at Huntingdon and other times it used to turn back at Peterborough (weekends mostly).

As an aside there used to be 2 met camm's used on the Cambridge - Royston service at the same time (being half hourly). All the units where 2 car, would love to see them running the same service today, would be total chaos!!

Hopefully someone can dig out a early 80's timetable and confirm.

 

[RT4038]

For a period in the mid-eighties (after virtual elimination of daytime loco-hauled trains), there were many HST stops at Huntingdon. [1985/6 TT shows weekday departures to London at 0809,0835,1016,1216,1411,1616,1816,2219] Most of these were York-London trains stopping at all stations to Huntingdon. The local DMU service was running hourly Peterborough-Hitchin at this time, although peak service mainly ran Huntingdon-Hitchin but more frequently. Earlier in the 80s the DMU service had run about every 2 hours between Huntingdon & Hitchin only, supplemented by some loco-hauled trains (mostly, but not exclusively at peaks) running between Peterborough and Kings Cross, stopping at all stations to Hitchin.
In the early 80s I frequently made a St.Neots-Darlington journey on a Sunday evening, which started off on a loco (Brush Type 2) hauled Mk1 set from St Neots to Peterborough about 19h30, changing into an HST at Peterborough.
Before electrification Biggleswade/Sandy/St.Neots/Huntingdon only had small numbers of commuters (a bit like Hemel Hempstead, Bedford, Bishop's Stortford, Farnborough Main etc. before their electrification)

 

[swt_passenger]

The Basingstoke reduction to two tracks is less of a problem (at least historicity) in that, even between Woking and Basingstoke the Portsmouth, Alton and Salisbury/Exeter services have all split from the main line towards Southampton.

That summary is not quite right, (but probably just accidentally), as you must know the Salisbury route splits just after Basingstoke, not 'between Woking and Basingstoke'. But in the context that's a point of detail...

 

[RT4038]

Indeed they did. I could tell you exactly if i hadn't of thrown out my timetable. Huntingdon used to get a better service than Stevenage and IIRC probably had something like 50% of the ECML services stop there.

.

Er, I think time is blurring things somewhat! In a period of 2 hours, approx. 6 main line trains each way arrived/departed Kings Cross, 1 of which stopped at Huntingdon [1985/6 timetable] Both this train and two others also stopped at Stevenage.

 

[The Ham]

That summary is not quite right, (but probably just accidentally), as you must know the Salisbury route splits just after Basingstoke, not 'between Woking and Basingstoke'. But in the context that's a point of detail...

I agree that thee junction is just outside of the built area of Basingstoke, as such what I said isn't technically correct. However, I wanted to be brief in my discripion.

 

[Steve Harris]

Er, I think time is blurring things somewhat! In a period of 2 hours, approx. 6 main line trains each way arrived/departed Kings Cross, 1 of which stopped at Huntingdon [1985/6 timetable] Both this train and two others also stopped at Stevenage.

Thanks RT. You might be right, after all I was just entering my teens at the time. I must be wearing those rose tinted specs now As I said I threw out my timetable when I last moved house so only have memories to go on. But thanx for filling in the details. I was at least half right, so the memory banks haven't quite collapsed yet !

What I forgot to mention was I was thinking along the lines off Huntingdon being a proper stop and Stevenage being mostly pick up or set down, if I'm correct.

 

[edwin_m]

In the case of the ECML and the MML the current reduction from four tracks is roughly the end of the "commuter" area as it was at the time the reduction was made. With growth in long-distance commuting there is now a need to extend the four-tracking back northwards.

The WCML is a bit different. In effect it is four-track all the way to Rugby but two of the tracks go through Northampton. The MML was similar before the 1980s rationalisations, with effectively four tracks right through to Chesterfield but two of them went via Corby instead of Leicester.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Indeed they did. I could tell you exactly if i hadn't of thrown out my timetable. Huntingdon used to get a better service than Stevenage and IIRC probably had something like 50% of the ECML services stop there.

As for the shuttle I believe it was either hourly or 2 hourly using a Cambridge based 101 met camm. Sometimes it used to turn back at Huntingdon and other times it used to turn back at Peterborough (weekends mostly).
... .

OK. I had somehow thought that when the Deltic hauled 'semi-fasts' were withdrawn, Huntingdon had been dropped from the Inter-city timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For a period in the mid-eighties (after virtual elimination of daytime loco-hauled trains), there were many HST stops at Huntingdon. [1985/6 TT shows weekday departures to London at 0809,0835,1016,1216,1411,1616,1816,2219] Most of these were York-London trains stopping at all stations to Huntingdon. The local DMU service was running hourly Peterborough-Hitchin at this time, although peak service mainly ran Huntingdon-Hitchin but more frequently. Earlier in the 80s the DMU service had run about every 2 hours between Huntingdon & Hitchin only, supplemented by some loco-hauled trains (mostly, but not exclusively at peaks) running between Peterborough and Kings Cross, stopping at all stations to Hitchin.
In the early 80s I frequently made a St.Neots-Darlington journey on a Sunday evening, which started off on a loco (Brush Type 2) hauled Mk1 set from St Neots to Peterborough about 19h30, changing into an HST at Peterborough.
Before electrification Biggleswade/Sandy/St.Neots/Huntingdon only had small numbers of commuters (a bit like Hemel Hempstead, Bedford, Bishop's Stortford, Farnborough Main etc. before their electrification)

Thank you for clarification of Huntingdon services in the 80s.

However, you are incorrect re-Bedford. It was nothing like Biggleswade/Sandy etc. It had what amounted to a state-or-the-art commuter service for the time from 1960 and was an important commuter town well before electrification.

 

[QueensCurve]

I may well be wrong here but I thought that it had originally been four track north of Huntington which was then reduced to three following electrification and that there are now plans to reinstate the fourth track? I'm pretty certain that something was mentioned about this in a recent Railway Magazine edition but I'm away from home this weekend and so cannot check.

My understanding too.

One track was removed to reduce the cost of wiring and now it is to be reinstated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

not sure that Basingstoke qualifies as a "reduction" as two tracks continue to Southampton and the other two to Salisbury, Welwyn North does as it is a two track section in otherwise four track

Worting junction.

The same could be said of the WCML since, while the last connections of the two pairs tracks are at Hanslope, the slow lines continue in parallel to the fasts until Roade where they diverge to Northampton. After Northampton they continue to Rugby.

 

[satisnek]

The MML was similar before the 1980s rationalisations, with effectively four tracks right through to Chesterfield but two of them went via Corby instead of Leicester.

If you also consider the 'Old Road' then the MML was effectively 4+ tracks all the way from London to Rotherham!

 

[DimTim]

The MML was 4 track north of Rotherham. I think to Swinton. I cannot recall the Leeds line through Manvers Cudworth being 4 track but there was the split at Manvers Coking Plant of the Leeds & Pontefract routes.

 

[D365]

One track was removed to reduce the cost of wiring and now it is to be reinstated.

I'll believe it when I see it, Network Rail have been talking about it for years.

 

[glbotu]

The WCML is a bit different. In effect it is four-track all the way to Rugby but two of the tracks go through Northampton.

I think you'll find it's 4 tracks all the way to Winsford (next station North of Crewe - about 190 miles). Remember, the main line goes via the Trent Valley, the 2 tracks to Birmingham are a branch.

 

[Mikey C]

I think you'll find it's 4 tracks all the way to Winsford (next station North of Crewe - about 190 miles). Remember, the main line goes via the Trent Valley, the 2 tracks to Birmingham are a branch.

Some of the Trent Valley 4 tracking is pretty recent isn't it, from the 2000s?

 

[Trog]

The Trent Valley is also only three tracks between Brinklow and just south of Nuneaton, and two tracks between Colwich and White House.

Although if the New Lines plus Old lines count as four track then perhaps the TV plus the Loop Via the Grand Junction is also above four.

 

[MK Tom]

Some of the Trent Valley 4 tracking is pretty recent isn't it, from the 2000s?

Yeah Tamworth-Rugeley was 2 tracks until around 2007 time.

I realise the Northampton line is technically a separate loop but I've always seen it as just being the WCML slows taking a slightly different route to the fasts. That way, minus the slightly annoying three-track section north of Rugby and the two-track section through that tunnel near Stafford it is effectively 4-track from Euston to just short of Winsford.

I think the line out of Fenchurch Street probably has the shortest distance before dropping to two tracks... about 600 yards!

 

[mr_jrt]

Where do you draw the line though? In my mind, if there are stations on both routes of the loop, it doesn't count. So, the Northampton loop does count as there are no stations on the fast line route, but the Corby loop doesn't because of Market Harborough & Leicester. Handily, this also means that with Old Oak Common HS2 doesn't mess up the system, either!