New Trains for Northern, fGW, fTPE... But not EMT

[ukrob]

I think that what ever new Rolling Stock is Built it will still only be two Car Units when in this day and age we need at least 3car DMUs.

And it is about time that they Stopped this business of only two carriage units along with the Railways need to be brought out of this time-warp which it is still in with no thanks to DfT.

The spec has called for two and either three or four carriage units.

It's a shame we can't just build "generic" middle cars to add extra capacity into a DMU - much better than running doubled up units with no corridor connection.

It won't help in the short term, but the spec requires corridor connection between units too.

 

[tbtc]

It won't help in the short term, but the spec requires corridor connection between units too.

Good news.

It frustrates me seeing a regular 158 + 170 combination on ScotRail, or a Pacer + 153 combination on Northern; glad to hear that future units will be linked.

 

[me123]

There's rarely problems up here with lack of gangways. Infact, they took the gangways out of 318s because of driver visibility and to make the trains look tidier, but also because the gangways aren't a big loss; 320s, 334s, 314s and even 303s survived without them. But they are coming back on the 380s.

The problem, as you say, is with the 158s and 170s. In particular, the Aberdeen and Inverness trains where seat reservations are available. You can't find your seat of you're in the wrong portion and on a busy train you could be standing for some time until the next stop!

 

[tbtc]

The problem, as you say, is with the 158s and 170s. In particular, the Aberdeen and Inverness trains where seat reservations are available. You can't find your seat of you're in the wrong portion and on a busy train you could be standing for some time until the next stop!

I've only found myself in the "wrong" portion of a train one recently; from London Bridge to the Kent Coast (I was wanting the "via Sandwich" portion). We walked along the train to the right one - my colleague didn't even realise we'd moved into another train!

Whereas, if you're in the wrong train and can't move along, what do you do? Risk running up the platform at a busy station like Perth?

 

[me123]

That rarely/never happens in Scotland without a gangway. The only example I can think of is the 156s to WHL which are gangwayed throughout, and have lots of extra time at Crianlarich to allow changes. The 170/158 combos all go to the same stations. There's the occasional service that divides with one train going onto Dyce but that's well advertised and, again, there's lots of time to change at Aberdeen.

The only problem with this in Scotrail is the reservations on 5 car Aberdeen trains; if you're in coach A and have boarded the 158 with coaches E and D, what are you to do? It's a very busy train, remember. The best option is to change at Haymarket or something; you should have time to go from the 158 door to the adjacent 170 door with no problem.

I suppose there's an argument that it also helps spread passengers throughout the train as they can freely move along the full length, but in my experience most passengers board evenly along busy trains and rarely move between carriages without good reason, namely toilet or buffet. For some reason, overcrowding does not always trigger movement.

 

[ukrob]

Breakdown:

For the December 2011 timetable:

8x4 car
7x3 car
11x4car

For the May 2012 timetable:

12x3 car
23x3 car

TOC's not mentioned although it is clear that the DFT know exactly which are going where.

Note: No two carriage units.

 

[John_158]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bubble car version of the Class 185 as i think the future is Single Car Units seeing as the 153s are so usefull.

 

[P156KWJ]

I think that what ever new Rolling Stock is Built it will still only be two Car Units when in this day and age we need at least 3car DMUs.

And it is about time that they Stopped this business of only two carriage units along with the Railways need to be brought out of this time-warp which it is still in with no thanks to DfT.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bubble car version of the Class 185 as i think the future is Single Car Units seeing as the 153s are so usefull.

do you realise you've shot yourself in the foot there?
This is getting silly really, I could now just say why not have a bubble car version of a eurostar and electrify the Cambrian Coast and use that, and then get the spare bits of 185s, make them in to 20 odd 4 car units and put them on Stourbridge shuttles in combo with PPMs... This is where it's actually going!!!

 

[222001]

Breakdown:

For the December 2011 timetable:

8x4 car
7x3 car
11x4car

For the May 2012 timetable:

12x3 car
23x3 car

TOC's not mentioned although it is clear that the DFT know exactly which are going where.

Note: No two carriage units.

Hmm interesting. I guess the 4 car units are for TPE with Nothern and FGW getting 3 car units. Where did you find this out? Out of interest?

Edit: As 8x4 car and 11x4 car are separate I guess that they are for different companys?

 

[TEW]

FGW are getting some of the 4 car units for Portsmouth-Cardiff.

 

[222001]

FGW are getting some of the 4 car units for Portsmouth-Cardiff.

I've just read that in the original article in this thread "Pat Steward, head of planning and transport at SWRDA, said: "We are reasonably asking for 44 new carriages, effectively 11 new trains, to serve the Cardiff to Portsmouth route."

So the 11x4 car are for FGW. I guess the 8x4 car are for FTPE. Then Northern get the 7x3 car.
Don't know about the 2012 arrivals but it wouldn't suprise me if the 23x3 car are for Northern too and the 12x3 car are for FTPE.

 

[Guinness]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Bubble car version of the Class 185 as i think the future is Single Car Units seeing as the 153s are so usefull.

God the Cost per Seat ratio would be astronomical! 185s weigh more than most Modern Trains.

 

[devon_metro]

I've just read that in the original article in this thread "Pat Steward, head of planning and transport at SWRDA, said: "We are reasonably asking for 44 new carriages, effectively 11 new trains, to serve the Cardiff to Portsmouth route."

So the 11x4 car are for FGW. I guess the 8x4 car are for FTPE. Then Northern get the 7x3 car.
Don't know about the 2012 arrivals but it wouldn't suprise me if the 23x3 car are for Northern too and the 12x3 car are for FTPE.

Bear in mind some units were destined for the Thames Valley, so not all will go to Northern.

 

[ukrob]

Hmm interesting. I guess the 4 car units are for TPE with Nothern and FGW getting 3 car units. Where did you find this out? Out of interest?

Edit: As 8x4 car and 11x4 car are separate I guess that they are for different companys?

It is from the ITT itself: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/diesel/

My guess would be that TPE get 3 car units to replace their turbostars and/or the Man Airport - Cleethorpes Class 185 diagrams which are lightly loaded east of Doncaster - and run very slow due to their weight. I suspect there are at least 7 or 8 Cleethorpes diagrams therefore 7 or 8 185's freed up.

 

[222001]

Bear in mind some units were destined for the Thames Valley, so not all will go to Northern.

Based on that my prediction is:
DEC 2011
8x4 car = 32 (First TransPennine Express)
7x3 car = 21 (Northern)
11x4car = 44 (First Great Western)

DEC 2012
12x3 car = 36 (First Great Western)
23x3 car = 69 (Northern)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is from the ITT itself: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/diesel/

My guess would be that TPE get 3 car units to replace their turbostars and/or the Man Airport - Cleethorpes Class 185 diagrams which are lightly loaded east of Doncaster - and run very slow due to their weight. I suspect there are at least 7 or 8 Cleethorpes diagrams therefore 7 or 8 185's freed up.

Hmm could go either way then with Northen or First TransPennine Express getting the December 2011 3 or 4 cars.

 

[Donny Dave]

It is from the ITT itself: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/diesel/

My guess would be that TPE get 3 car units to replace their turbostars and/or the Man Airport - Cleethorpes Class 185 diagrams which are lightly loaded east of Doncaster - and run very slow due to their weight. I suspect there are at least 7 or 8 Cleethorpes diagrams therefore 7 or 8 185's freed up.

The slow running East of Doncaster is not down to the weight of a 185. the only stretch of line cleared for more than 60mph for all traffic is Marshgate Jn to between Thorne and Hatfield junctions. That's cleared for 85mph running. After that, it's just about all 55-60mph, but that's due to the signalling and where the track is. Hopefully, the 12 week blockade later this year to repair the line and sort out a couple of problems will also see the speed limit raised.

East of Doncaster, the 185s are usually quite well loaded as far as Scunthorpe. After Scunthorpe, the trains are lightly loaded.

 

[tbtc]

Based on that my prediction is:
DEC 2011
8x4 car = 32 (First TransPennine Express)

I know I've said it before, but FTPE don't need more trains, just more coaches to slot into existing trains (unless they are going to have permenantly coupled units going over the Pennines).

The point about the Cleethorpes service east of Doncaster is an interesting one, but the same units need a bit of capacity for the Sheffield - Manchester stretch, so would need to be fairly long still (if lighter).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

do you realise you've shot yourself in the foot there?
This is getting silly really, I could now just say why not have a bubble car version of a eurostar and electrify the Cambrian Coast and use that, and then get the spare bits of 185s, make them in to 20 odd 4 car units and put them on Stourbridge shuttles in combo with PPMs... This is where it's actually going!!!

Glad I'm not the only one confused by the "logic" on this thread

 

[222001]

I know I've said it before, but FTPE don't need more trains, just more coaches to slot into existing trains (unless they are going to have permenantly coupled units going over the Pennines).

Thats my thinking too. If they do get 8x4 car I think these will be used to displace 185s which can then be doubled up between Manchester and Glasgow. Shame they don't have corridor connections. Perhaps the Turbostars could be displaced to EMT here as they are 2 car which would account for 4 of the new four car trains and then the other 4 could free up 4 185s? Who knows but it will be a couple of years until we find out.

 

[ukrob]

East of Doncaster, the 185s are usually quite well loaded as far as Scunthorpe. After Scunthorpe, the trains are lightly loaded.

"Usually quite well loaded" is subjective - in my experience they are not at all, maybe 50% of seats taken at the most, but from your location I will take your word for it.

The point about the Cleethorpes service east of Doncaster is an interesting one, but the same units need a bit of capacity for the Sheffield - Manchester stretch, so would need to be fairly long still (if lighter).

Extra capacity for Manchester - Sheffield is easy - the 185s don't have enough because of their internal layout. I suspect any new trains in this country will be designed to pack as many seats in as possible.

 

[MCR247]

I thought 185s were just getting an extra car put in like I think the 333s

 

[ukrob]

I thought 185s were just getting an extra car put in like I think the 333s

Thats what the wanted originally, but not what is happening. TPE are getting new build units.

 

[MCR247]

But 185s are almost brand new!!!!

 

[devon_metro]

But 185s are almost brand new!!!!

Any very heavy...

 

[John_158]

I think 185s where built wrong as i think they should really have been built similar to Voyagers and the 180s ie.Built as 5 or 6 car units instead of three car units as then they may not have needed the 170s.

Plus if they are going to build extra coaches for them then what i would do is build them as Single Car Multiple Units ie..A Single Car Version of the 185s, Which would be more flexible then them being fixed carriages.

The Single Car Units would be used attached to the 185s for which could introduce more portion working for example i belive that the Doncaster-Cleethorpes Section of the Manchester-Cleethorpes Service is not all that Busy so the Single Car could run off the front of the 185 up to Cleethorpes and Back to Doncaster whilst the 185 turns back at Doncaster attaching its slef to the single car unit which has just returned from Cleethorpes.

 

[ukrob]

I think 185s where built wrong as i think they should really have been built similar to Voyagers and the 180s ie.Built as 5 or 6 car units instead of three car units as then they may not have needed the 170s.

They needed the 170's because they did not get all the 185s built that they wanted - it has nothing to do with their length.

Plus if they are going to build extra coaches for them then what i would do is build them as Single Car Multiple Units ie..A Single Car Version of the 185s, Which would be more flexible then them being fixed carriages.

How many seats do you envisage in a single car DMU with a disabled toilet, first and standard class, catering and two cabs? Add on the cost of an extra guard and driver too.

The Single Car Units would be used attached to the 185s for which could introduce more portion working for example i belive that the Doncaster-Cleethorpes Section of the Manchester-Cleethorpes Service is not all that Busy so the Single Car could run off the front of the 185 up to Cleethorpes and Back to Doncaster whilst the 185 turns back at Doncaster attaching its slef to the single car unit which has just returned from Cleethorpes.

If only life were that simple....

 

[John_158]

How many seats do you envisage in a single car DMU with a disabled toilet, first and standard class, catering and two cabs? Add on the cost of an extra guard and driver too.

Probably arround 70 to 75 seats no need for 1st Class as they would mostly used with the 185s which arleady have 1st Class.

The Single Car Unit would be Based on the Carrige Which has the Disabled WC in it on 185s ok you may loose afew seats by adding an extra Cab but you will gain extra seats when coupled to a 185.

Admitidley 185s should hav had End Gangways which would make the idear of attaching a Single Car Unit work better than it would do now but i do feel that single Car Units are more flexible.

 

[ukrob]

How many seats do you envisage in a single car DMU with a disabled toilet, first and standard class, catering and two cabs? Add on the cost of an extra guard and driver too.

Probably arround 70 to 75 seats no need for 1st Class as they would mostly used with the 185s which arleady have 1st Class.

The Single Car Unit would be Based on the Carrige Which has the Disabled WC in it on 185s ok you may loose afew seats by adding an extra Cab but you will gain extra seats when coupled to a 185.

Admitidley 185s should hav had End Gangways which would make the idear of attaching a Single Car Unit work better than it would do now but i do feel that single Car Units are more flexible.

So you are seriously suggesting that this carriage with the disabled toilet should be a model for a single car DMU with space for 75 passengers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_TransPennine_Express_Class_185_in_old_livery_at_York.jpg

Why "no need" for first class? It is over 70 minutes between Doncaster and Cleethorpes - should first class be removed from all services under 70 minutes? Liverpool to Warrington or Manchester for example? Do you buy a first class or a standard class ticket from Manchester to Cleethorpes? How does it work?

I could go on, but it seems like you haven't thought out this idea at all...

 

[Guinness]

They needed the 170's because they did not get all the 185s built that they wanted - it has nothing to do with their length.

I thought this was more down to Weight Restrictions on 185s on some lines? Hence the lighter weight 170s took over some routes while the remaining 185 were released for Scotland services.

 

[ukrob]

I thought this was more down to Weight Restrictions on 185s on some lines? Hence the lighter weight 170s took over some routes while the remaining 185 were released for Scotland services.

TPE wanted 56x185s (I think) and the DfT cut it back to 51. This was of course long before the Scotland services were known about. Class 185's are used to Hull - it is not as if they are banned. The fact that TPE acquired some 170s just makes it better operationally.

 

[222001]

70-75 seats would not be enough between Doncaster and Cleethorpes in the summer. At least two carraiges would be needed. The cost of having single car idea is not worth it. Also I've done first class Sheffield-Cleethorpes it is a long way you know.