New Trains for Northern, fGW, fTPE... But not EMT

[xtradj]

153's and 156's arnt suitable for a long distance service liverpool to norwich

the turbostars were perfect, who took them? even 158's are ok, but EMT clearly dont have the stock or the funds to improve the service

4/5 car XC trains would be perfect on this route

EMT seem to treat it as a local stopper cattle service.. i.e. pay us for this vital stopper service, cram in.. tough luck kinda attitude

 

[MCR247]

Reversing at platform is certainly possible at Worksop. In the evenings, Northern services only run from Sheffield as far as Worksop, with the train pulling in to platform 2 (the "Trains for Retford and Lincoln" side) and changing direction immediately, all without the use of platform 1 (the "Trains for Mansfield, Nottingham and Sheffield" side).

Yeah I think I realise why EMT do. I think a Northern service come after

 

[P156KWJ]

153's and 156's arnt suitable for a long distance service liverpool to norwich

the turbostars were perfect, who took them? even 158's are ok, but EMT clearly dont have the stock or the funds to improve the service

4/5 car XC trains would be perfect on this route

EMT seem to treat it as a local stopper cattle service.. i.e. pay us for this vital stopper service, cram in.. tough luck kinda attitude

to be honest, what are the main differences in facilities between a 156 and 158? I wouldn't mind a 156 hen you see the state 158s are in...

also, if you can find some 4/5 car units provided by XC to use on this service I will quite happily drink the diesel from the tanks on those trains!!

 

[sprint]

I've been at Worksop, when Robin Hood Line trains have been late running, and they have arrived and departed from the same the platform, so it is possible to reverse there without using the reversing sidings.
A through service from Sheffield to Nottingham via this route would mainly benefit lots of passengers from stations north of Nottingham, especially the Mansfield area. Unless you are willing to endure a 45-50 minute wait at Worksop for a connection to Sheffield it is not very convenient to travel north from Mansfield without first going south to Nottingham. I am sure that Mansfield and the northern section of this line would see significant passenger growth with a faster service to Sheffield. Even just providing better connections at Worksop would be a help. No-one wants to make an almost 2 hour train journey, including wait at Worksop, for a journey that is only 45 minutes by road.

Incidently, as my local station is on the Robin Hood Line, I do not really want pacers, but would be willing to put up with them for local journeys if it helped EMT out of their stock problem and gave me a quick service convenient link to Sheffield.

Yes worksop bi directional on up road so trains would be aloud to reverse.
Extending nottingham trains though aint as easy as it sounds,first of all extra trains would be required and we know how difficult that is,a bigger problem i believe though is pathing,namely for nottingham station and sheffield station north.Ok leave the nottingham end times alone,so we get to nunnery junction(sheffield),first of all we need a gap to get to the station,great we got a two minute gap. but on paper and in planning the two minute gap aint practicable,but if it did work is there a platform?
When the worksop line timetable is formed its formed round nottingham station first so that it can gain a platform.I guess the lincoln service still goes to adwick,if it does the pinch points here are sheffield,holmes cord, doncaster station so the trains will be planned round these points first to fit in.
my guess is this is why connections at worksop for sheffield are dire.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'd quite like to see this new build DMU replacing the Turbostars from fTPE, so that they can go to EMT. Along with the Pacers or whatever that is cascaded from Northern by the arrival of this new stock. Makes sense I guess, so it won't happen.

 

[tbtc]

Extending nottingham trains though aint as easy as it sounds,
...
my guess is this is why connections at worksop for sheffield are dire.

As a short term thing, it'd only take one unit to double the Nottingham - Worksop service by extending the "short" Mansfield service (without affecting the paths at Nottingham)

At the moment we have this:

Nottingham 09.25
Worksop 10.34
v v v v v v v v
Worksop 11.15
Sheffield 11.49

Sheffield 14.44
Worksop 15.13
v v v v v v v v
Worksop 15.38
Nottingham 16.44

...which means waiting for an hour at Worksop in total if you are making a through journey. Okay, extending the Mansfield - Nottingham service to start back at Worksop would mean just missing a connection with the Sheffield - Lincoln train, but this is just a simple idea.

Ideally, I'd like to see through trains, but that'd probably mean giving EMT the Sheffield - Lincoln line to themselves (a logical fit), which is another story...

 

[sprint]

As a short term thing, it'd only take one unit to double the Nottingham - Worksop service by extending the "short" Mansfield service (without affecting the paths at Nottingham)

At the moment we have this:

Nottingham 09.25
Worksop 10.34
v v v v v v v v
Worksop 11.15
Sheffield 11.49

Sheffield 14.44
Worksop 15.13
v v v v v v v v
Worksop 15.38
Nottingham 16.44

...which means waiting for an hour at Worksop in total if you are making a through journey. Okay, extending the Mansfield - Nottingham service to start back at Worksop would mean just missing a connection with the Sheffield - Lincoln train, but this is just a simple idea.

Ideally, I'd like to see through trains, but that'd probably mean giving EMT the Sheffield - Lincoln line to themselves (a logical fit), which is another story...

Yes the extension of the nottingham-mansfields to worksop would only require 1 extra train.
Even if a train was sourced emt wouldnt take on the financial implications of running this service as it wouldnt generate enough income to support itself,am sure the only way this will ever happen is if the notts and derbyshire councils take on the costs.
But am sure with increased frequency of the service and with better connections at worksop passenger numbers would rise on the mansfield-worksop section.

 

[WillPS]

Yes the extension of the nottingham-mansfields to worksop would only require 1 extra train.
Even if a train was sourced emt wouldnt take on the financial implications of running this service as it wouldnt generate enough income to support itself,am sure the only way this will ever happen is if the notts and derbyshire councils take on the costs.
But am sure with increased frequency of the service and with better connections at worksop passenger numbers would rise on the mansfield-worksop section.

EMT wouldn't take all the financial implicatons - I believe the Robin Hood Line is subsidised by Nottinghamshire County Council, and parts of Sheffield - Lincoln are subsidised by South Yorkshire PTE. I could equally be wrong on that one though, I'm more sure about the Robin Hood Line.

Would be a huge bonus for the line though, although it may be confusing for those travelling from Nottingham to Sheffield - a choice of either Norwich - Liverpool (EMT, 50 mins), Nottingham to Leeds (Northern, 1hr) or the Robin Hood Line (EMT, 1hr 30 mins). Having said that though, passengers travelling to Leeds from Sheffield have a similar array of choices.

As for the Norwich-Liverpool service, well it's been a casuality of the DfT really. Central Trains splitting was stupid, it's just left the same problems there always was in the west and created stock shortages and inadequecies in the East. Even then though, Turbostars SHOULD have been kept on for this service, and it's an oversight on whoevers part not to have done that.

 

[David Pemberton]

You wouldn't want your pension invested a leasing a diesel train...

Enviornmental railway to nowhere, will they make their full operational service life? Enough people seem to think not so leasing companies may find it hard to finance them.

EMT Norwich to Liverpool: electrify the Midland mainline and cascade the 222s to Norwich Liverpool.

 

[WillPS]

You wouldn't want your pension invested a leasing a diesel train...

Enviornmental railway to nowhere, will they make their full operational service life? Enough people seem to think not so leasing companies may find it hard to finance them.

EMT Norwich to Liverpool: electrify the Midland mainline and cascade the 222s to Norwich Liverpool.

That'd be great, but there's nothing firm to say this will happen - surely this means it's unlikely to happen in the next 5 years or so?

 

[D841]

I can't see the 185s going anywhere away from fTPE, given the two new maintenance depots which were built specially for them, at Ardwick and York.

 

[John_158]

An idea that may work is to Give FTPE 8 180s shortened to 4 coaches and give EMT the 9 170s from FTPE or send them there on Loan as DFT did not say that they couldn't loan rolling stock.

I would think that EMT could also make use of the 180s as i know weight restrictions is an issue but if they Shortened them to three carriages then that should reduce the weight of them as in theory they would be the same weight as a four car working 158.

The surplus carriages would be saved back at the depot by undergoing maintenance work / repair whilst the remaining carriages where in use with the driving cars and if one become faulty it can be swapped on retuning to the depot and prepared whilst the unit is back in service in no time at all.

 

[Guinness]

170s on Norwich - Liverpool is good, 3 car 180s is a waste of resources IMHO.

 

[John_158]

170s on Norwich - Liverpool is good, 3 car 180s is a waste of resources IMHO.

Why do you think that as we need three cariges not two !

 

[WillPS]

An idea that may work is to Give FTPE 8 180s shortened to 4 coaches and give EMT the 9 170s from FTPE or send them there on Loan as DFT did not say that they couldn't loan rolling stock.

Two car Turbostars are nice, but not enough to adequettely serve the overcrowded EMT routes.

I would think that EMT could also make use of the 180s as i know weight restrictions is an issue but if they Shortened them to three carriages then that should reduce the weight of them as in theory they would be the same weight as a four car working 158.

I'm really not too hot on this, but I'm pretty sure it's not that simple. I think that you need to reduce the weight on each bogie (thus reducing the weight the track has to bare with at any one time), which obviously doesn't change by just reducing the length of the train.

The surplus carriages would be saved back at the depot by undergoing maintenance work / repair whilst the remaining carriages where in use with the driving cars and if one become faulty it can be swapped on retuning to the depot and prepared whilst the unit is back in service in no time at all.

In a time when railways are at capacity and demand increases continually, it wouldn't bode well with the general public having carriages lying about doing nothing.

 

[John_158]

Tell that to Scot Rail who have 158868 sitting doing nowt for over a year now plus all those redundant carriges at Crewe.

 

[WillPS]

It is unacceptable really, especially considering the desperate state of play at EMT. Another point on my 'privatisation is bizarre' argument.

 

[laseandre]

An idea that may work is to Give FTPE 8 180s shortened to 4 coaches and give EMT the 9 170s from FTPE or send them there on Loan as DFT did not say that they couldn't loan rolling stock.

I would think that EMT could also make use of the 180s as i know weight restrictions is an issue but if they Shortened them to three carriages then that should reduce the weight of them as in theory they would be the same weight as a four car working 158.

The surplus carriages would be saved back at the depot by undergoing maintenance work / repair whilst the remaining carriages where in use with the driving cars and if one become faulty it can be swapped on retuning to the depot and prepared whilst the unit is back in service in no time at all.

I don't think you can modify a 180 to 3 cars without a major modification in the computer, which EMT would be unlikely to do, as it would need reverted at the end of their lease.

 

[16CSVT2700]

A locomotive hauled train is not suitable for the Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich route due to the soil quality beneath the tracks between Ely and Thetford, the train would be at a crawl on this (rather large) section, .

Maybe so, but it doesn't stop the tours that use that section from pounding along it.. 40145's been along that section and that weighed 133 tonnes + 11 coaches..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would think that EMT could also make use of the 180s as i know weight restrictions is an issue but if they Shortened them to three carriages then that should reduce the weight of them as in theory they would be the same weight as a four car working 158.

You forgot axle loadings affect route availability. You can chop and change units to take out carriages but you cannot affect the axle loadings of each vehicle.

 

[class 313]

Maybe so, but it doesn't stop the tours that use that section from pounding along it.. 40145's been along that section and that weighed 133 tonnes + 11 coaches..

That doesn't happen everyday though

 

[WillPS]

No, and they certainly shouldn't go at the same speed that Sprinters do along there. When the Meridians were tested on that line last year the train lost a substantial amount of time because it couldn't make use of the higher Sprinter speed.

 

[adamp]

Hopefully this could be the end for Northerns pacers...

 

[TEW]

The new trains will be for extra capacity, everybody wants as much capacity as possible even if its using pacers so they will still probably be around.

 

[John_158]

ATW expect to go until 2018 with there pacers so Northern will probably follow suit even if they shift a load of 144s down to the North West they will probably have them until the end of the franchise.

Thinking of why DFT are reluctant to give EMT anymore rolling stock is probably because what hey have got they don't seem to look after at Nottingham Depot namely the 158s i take into account 158862 which was the Best of all the ex CT 158s for which the condition has deteriorated rapidly recently its very sad indeed.

Even the condition of the 156s is deteriorating internally they do need a refreshment along with most of the 153s too.

EMTs Local Services are Sponsored by the appropriate local authorities so there should be no excuse for not applying for funding from each Local authority for refreshment of the 153s and 156s.

And with the deteriorating condition of the 158s i think its about time they pulled there socks up with the maintenance of there fleet as there's no point in investing 10million in refurbishment of the 158s if they are not going to be looked after.

I remember when they sent all the 158s inturn down to SWT to undergo reliability exams and it worked well now it seems as though SWTs work has been waisted and not appreciated.

But yet EMT don't seem to give a dam about the passengers and just shift all the worst namely ex CT 158s on to the Liverpool-Norwich Service, Those ex CT 158s are absolutely minging with no padding on the seats flee writhen carpets and 852/858 & 862 all have serous leaks on there manifolds on both engines in 858 and one on 862 and 852.

Also there is a possibility that EMT could get a further two 153s on top of the 5 from NXEA as if and when the Bidston-Wrexham Electrification Goes ahead ATW will have at least two spare units which they would be most likely to give up 153s rather than 150s or 158s.

 

[Pumbaa]

Sorry didn't quite understand that post - there were enough letters missing to keep Royal Mail busy for weeks.

EMT do give a damn about passengers. Tim Shoveller in particular has been vocally reassuring passengers that they are doing everything they can do improve things.

As for unfairly chucking crap 158s on Liverpool - Norwich, well what other option do they have!? They can't send the SWT 158s out on them every day, as somehow I don't think SWT would be happy to receive them back with excessive mileage and wear-tear. Funnily enough, the knackered old CT stock are the only options left!

Yes Nottingham does need to shift its chassis, but turnarounds don't happen overnight. Maybe less criticism on your part and more well-reasoned judgement? Half of your posts seem to be winging about Liverpool - Norwich, same points over and over again.

 

[WillPS]

I argued exactly the same case in an email today to the owner of that stupid Train Sardine website:

You’re an idiot. Where was this poll? On your website? Hardly an objective place to gather such a statistic.

Your asinine bandwagon is hurling in all the wrong directions. What do you actually want Tim, Richard, Brian and all the other people you’ve badly photoshopped holding a tin of sardines to do? Magically conjure up more trains out of nowhere? Do you understand the logistics of the National Rail network? If not, then may I suggest that you remove your website.

Your entire argument is palpable nonsense.

From: D M [mailto:info@trainsardine.org]
Sent: 11 January 2009 17:41
To: info@trainsardine.org
Subject: Trainsardine.org-Sardines have been sent to Brian Souter,

Sardines have been sent to Brian Souter, the founder and board member of Stagecoach, by passenger group TrainSardine.org.

The fish were sent following the results of the first rail passenger poll of 2009 which revealed that over 78 % of passenger travelling on the Liverpool to Norwich train line said they were unsatisfied or very unsatisfied with the service. This is the worst customer satisfaction results in the UK. In a second poll, over 65% of passengers also called for east Midlands train company MD, Tim Shoveller, to resign.

 

[John_158]

I think that what ever new Rolling Stock is Built it will still only be two Car Units when in this day and age we need at least 3car DMUs.

And it is about time that they Stopped this business of only two carriage units along with the Railways need to be brought out of this time-warp which it is still in with no thanks to DfT.

 

[Pumbaa]

I think that what ever new Rolling Stock is Built it will still only be two Car Units when in this day and age we need at least 3car DMUs.

And it is about time that they Stopped this business of only two carriage units along with the Railways need to be brought out of this time-warp which it is still in with no thanks to DfT.

2 carriage units can be good, as some platforms may only be able take carriages of multiples of 2. As soon as you sling in 3-car units, you will loose capacity. Of course there is SDO, but this can be troublesome to implement, particularly as some stock it locks out entire units.

Also remember that the stock is multi-purpose; it's too difficult to base entire fleets on certain routes. Yes, the Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield corridors and alike could do with three car units. But that won't stop them going elsewhere as it's virtually impossible to contain seperate fleets that are really otherwise the same. This would result in a waste of resources on services that really don't need 3 carriages.

And anyway, these new trains are for strengthening services, not replacing existing stock. Therefore 2 carriages makes sense.

 

[tbtc]

these new trains are for strengthening services, not replacing existing stock. Therefore 2 carriages makes sense.

It's a shame we can't just build "generic" middle cars to add extra capacity into a DMU - much better than running doubled up units with no corridor connection.

 

[222001]

I argued exactly the same case in an email today to the owner of that stupid Train Sardine website:

That Trains Sadine website really annoys me! I think it's run by and angry commuters who don't have a clue what they are going on about. Nearly all their facts are wrong - one said EMT had been running for two years! They don't quite get the fact that there is no more trains and EMT can't really do a quick fix solution.
They should direct their anger to the Dft but no matter how many people leave comments saying that they don't seem to get it. Stupid people. Whats this sending sardines thing - what a pointless, stupid and childish thing to do.
They seem to think that there are plenty of trains but EMT doesn't send them out in 4 car formations as they want to save money on staff and fuel - what a load of CRAP. It annoys me as this website sucks people into believing the same thing.
Also I notice they now have a "Virgin Sardine" section having a go at Virgin Trains.
Rant Over.