Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[route:oxford]

Any politician worth his salt can easily convince himself, if not the public, that rail vehicles taken out of service and thoroughly rebuilt are not "old underground trains".

It's not hard to convince anyone, most of the District Line is above ground isn't it?

All of the tunnels are sub-surface rather than underground too.

 

[QueensCurve]

There does seem to be a desire from some members to see 230s deployed on Northern routes regardless of the considerable amount of investment being made in the new 195/331s. I can't imagine how Arriva after all their publicity about said units would be able to convince anyone that the 230s would be the brand new trains promised. One of the prime arguments made by the 230 supporters is that people would be grateful for any extra capacity offered by them, ignoring that the basic, cheapest configuration is the standard longitudinal seating of the ex-D stock. Any other higher seating configuration would cost more and bring the final price much closer to that of a new unit. So I put it to these members that the travelling public would not be grateful of fewer seats per carriage, and would see through the hype and see the 230s for what they really are, a cheap(ish) and slow temporary solution, ironically almost exactly the same as the units they are supposed to replace.

Not so much a "desire" as a recognition that, on self-contained routes with a maximum speed of 60mph, they could fill a gap and be quite acceptable. Certainly far better than the dreaded pacer.

While I may have taken a Northern route as an example, I am sure there are many more where the conditions are met and the TOC has not promised new trains.

 

[D365]

That is unfortunate, but unsurprising given the circumstances. Hope that 230001 makes a speedy recovery and I look forward to hearing more news.

 

[furnessvale]

It's not hard to convince anyone, most of the District Line is above ground isn't it?

All of the tunnels are sub-surface rather than underground too.

Post #4424 gives the context. As far as joe public is concerned ALL LT trains are "underground".

 

[QueensCurve]

It's not hard to convince anyone, most of the District Line is above ground isn't it?

All of the tunnels are sub-surface rather than underground too.

The Underground is the name of the network which comprises two types of line:-

• Deep bored Tube lines
• Sub-surface lines

Most lines have surface stretches at there extremities.



Trains which work on the network are all Underground Trains,

 

[Nym]

According to Vivarail, the only parts that they [the Class 230 units] retain from the original D Stock is the bodyshell and bogies.

Although they've (debateably) reused the seating layout in the driving cars.

And the doors, door engines, windows, floors, ceiling structures, multi-point connection boxes, jumpers, etc etc etc

 

[The Growl]

And the doors, door engines, windows, floors, ceiling structures, multi-point connection boxes, jumpers, etc etc etc

But aside from that, they've changed everything. They've certainly changed the fire resistance though.

 

[47802]

Not so much a "desire" as a recognition that, on self-contained routes with a maximum speed of 60mph, they could fill a gap and be quite acceptable. Certainly far better than the dreaded pacer.

While I may have taken a Northern route as an example, I am sure there are many more where the conditions are met and the TOC has not promised new trains.

Yes there could be potentially lines on most franchises where they could be used but that doesn't mean they will be, yes some could potentially be used on Northern, Anglia and GWR but as far as is known at present they have opted for other solutions so lets just leave it at that.

 

[43021HST]

Please. I will repeat. These things are not going on GWR. If the residual Turbos get released, there is far more likelihood of this happening as a result of D319 introduction, which is being very closely looked at.

I will repeat, the point of my argument why people keep making this assumption, is that GWR from what I can see, operate a fair few branch lines that would be ideal to run these trains on.

In regards to the turbos, operating a microfleet of perfectly serviceable 90mph surburban DMUs on purely branch lines is nonsensical, when you can use something a little more specialised.

Furthermore is it written in any franchise arrangements that these DMUs will be taken on by any franchise? From what I can see, saying that these units won't go to certain operators is silly, as it's all mostly hypothetical as to who will and won't receive them. It hasn't been written currently into any franchise agreements, who will receive them, that's if the units ever get past the experimental stage.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Those are production units, during the trial period over the mid-2000s there was only the one "PPM50" unit.

The trial of the PPM on the Stourbridge branch was Sundays only. At the time, the branch didn't have a Sunday service so the trial did have any impact on the normal service...

 

[MML]

The Marston Vale line does not currently have a Sunday service, although one is promised for the next franchise. The unit could be used by London Midland for testing on Sundays with little impact. I'm guessing secure stabling would also be available at the Bletchley depot facilities previously used by 1st generation DMU units.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I will repeat, the point of my argument why people keep making this assumption, is that GWR from what I can see, operate a fair few branch lines that would be ideal to run these trains on.

In regards to the turbos, operating a microfleet of perfectly serviceable 90mph surburban DMUs on purely branch lines is nonsensical, when you can use something a little more specialised.

Furthermore is it written in any franchise arrangements that these DMUs will be taken on by any franchise? From what I can see, saying that these units won't go to certain operators is silly, as it's all mostly hypothetical as to who will and won't receive them. It hasn't been written currently into any franchise agreements, who will receive them, that's if the units ever get past the experimental stage.

It won't happen, I can assure you of that. Decision already made. The only question revolves around the D319 concept and if it can be applied to existing and projected Turbo diagrams.

The thought that Marlow commuters will swap their nice 25 year old Turbos for something that would be worse in their eyes has been discussed at length and discarded. Likewise for the West Country branches. Politically unacceptable move as well as giving GWR yet another type to train when the training workload is at its peak.

Quite where these supposed orders are going remains a mystery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You seem to be agreeing that reuse of perfectly good components could save considerable amounts of money.........surely not!

Indeed NOT, as I can assure you that a Damascene moment has most certainly not affected my reasoning. My posting was just expanding on the comments made in the posting made by D365

 

[43021HST]

It won't happen, I can assure you of that. /Decision already made.

What make you so sure that these units won't happen? Someone so sure suggests you have some kind of evidence.

The thought that Marlow commuters will swap their nice 25 year old Turbos for something that would be worse in their eyes has been discussed at length and discarded.

Where has this discussion happened, I'm genuinely curious to have a read of it? Of interest was that the Thames Valley commuters said the very same thing when they started replacing 5-7 coach loco hauled trains when the turbos started to be introduced in 1991. Personally I don't think the Viva D trains will be that bad on short distance journeys.

 

[Clarence Yard]

What make you so sure that these units won't happen? Someone so sure suggests you have some kind of evidence.



Where has this discussion happened, I'm genuinely curious to have a read of it? Of interest was that the Thames Valley commuters said the very same thing when they started replacing 5-7 coach loco hauled trains when the turbos started to be introduced in 1991. Personally I don't think the Viva D trains will be that bad on short distance journeys.

I have evidence all right but I am not sharing it on a public forum, thanks. I prefer to have a job. I try and keep people here up to speed on what is and isn't going on but there are limits about how much I can post.

Private discussions have been taking place between professional railwaymen, politicians and civil servants ever since these vehicles were first mooted. But there is a huge reputational and political problem now with cascading rolling stock where the likely receipiants will perceive it to be vastly inferior to what they have got now. The forthcoming new stock for Anglia and Northern has been a real game changer. The 319 Flex has the potential to be similar if Porterbrook are sensible about their prices.

With lines like Marlow, this is nothing new. I remember the discussions way back when about whether it should get a Turbo or whether we should keep an old DMU on it. The advantages of a totally standardised (and then new) fleet won the day and my list of possible retained DMU sets for Thames branches got binned!

I'm still struggling to see how the D230 product is going to result in any significant orders from TOCs, especially from those that have already had a close look, are doing something else and as a consequence said no thanks.

 

[158756]

If they've got an order, possible customers would seem to be:

1) Bidders for franchises currently out to tender - surely not SWT, and London Midland would only want a handful if it was them.
2) A franchise negotiating a direct award - I don't think there are any relevant franchises in this position.
3) A franchise which has realised it doesn't have/ won't have enough stock, maybe due to the electrification mess. Possibly Great Western, Northern or ATW, though the politicians seem to be unable to decide what to do with the Wales and Borders franchise, so I doubt they're in a position to order.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Based upon the time period in previous railway incidents, how long would it normally be before the Railway Accident Investigation Bureau commence their investigations in the fire and then how long would it be before their formal decision would be announced on a matter such as this?

 

[bramling]

If they've got an order, possible customers would seem to be:

1) Bidders for franchises currently out to tender - surely not SWT, and London Midland would only want a handful if it was them.
2) A franchise negotiating a direct award - I don't think there are any relevant franchises in this position.
3) A franchise which has realised it doesn't have/ won't have enough stock, maybe due to the electrification mess. Possibly Great Western, Northern or ATW, though the politicians seem to be unable to decide what to do with the Wales and Borders franchise, so I doubt they're in a position to order.

Unless thing change rapidly, there's going to be a big problem in Wales with units requiring to be made disability compliant. A few D-trains certainly wouldn't go amiss in the Cardiff area, although whether it would be politically acceptable is another matter.

 

[HLE]

Why the hatred towards the 230's? Sure the demonstrator hasn't covered itself in glory with the engine failures, but no one can deny that it would solve some of the overcrowding/lack of resources on some branch lines.

I personally would rather see the 153's stay on the Nuneaton branch. Don't get me wrong the 230's would be interesting if they do come on board but I can't help but feel that reliability wouldn't be brilliant to start with- something the 153's are bloody good at these days.

But that doesn't mean to say I don't like or want the 230's. It's an interesting project which I can see taking off.

 

[najaB]

Based upon the time period in previous railway incidents, how long would it normally be before the Railway Accident Investigation Bureau commence their investigations in the fire and then how long would it be before their formal decision would be announced on a matter such as this?

That's an impossible question to answer - it all depends on what they find. If the cause is obvious and the fire protection did what it was supposed to have (meaning there was no flame intrusion into the passenger compartment), they could have a preliminary report out in a few days.

If the cause was something non-obvious then it may take a lot longer as they rule out branches of the fault tree. Hence my comment earlier that hopefully there was a loose hose dangling somewhere...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why the hatred towards the 230's?

Those of us with Class 142 Pacers (another "innovative" product) still running in our areas may see another unusual "branch line saver" unit as a bridge too far...

 

[D365]

Those of us with Class 142 Pacers (another "innovative" product) still running in our areas may see another unusual "branch line saver" unit as a bridge too far...

I have recent experience of most Pacer classes and London Underground sub-surface stock. Although I have not travelled on the District in a while I understand that the D Stock was by far the preferred variant.

Bearing in mind the oft-mentioned national shortage in diesel units (not helped by the misplaced optimism for the timely completion of numerous electrification works), I don't see how the Class 230s could be anything but a significant improvement from the Pacers and perhaps even the Class 150/153 fleets.

Though of course this is only my own opinion, I wouldn't be at all dissatisfied to receive any number of Class 230 units on the 'South Transpennine route' which I am familiar with. However we shall wait and see.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps the euphoria concerning the Class 230 unit can subside until it has finally emerged from its testing period and received full acceptance.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[D365]

I understand that some may not feel the same way, but I think that Vivarail has come up with an unusual, yet rather engaging reengineering project. One might think back to the Class 57 and 73/9 locomotives as a similar example of repurposing older rolling stock, but the Class 230 goes even further. It's been very interesting to read about and I hope that the finished product finds a home on our railway network.

 

[randyrippley]

Well personally I think the obvious thing to do is repurpose the Pacer's components...........keep the engines wheelsets and suspension and fit new bus bodies.
Those underframes must be good for another twenty years yet. Fit an extruded spar body from Wrights and you'd have an as-new vehicle.
Or alternatively, instead of fitting van engines under the class 230, why not use the motors from withdrawn Pacers?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One might think back to the Class 57 and 73/9 locomotives as a similar example of repurposing older rolling stock, but the Class 230 goes even further. It's been very interesting to read about and I hope that the finished product finds a home on our railway network.

Perhaps a static role in the National Railway Museum at York being one possible home.

Incidentally, have you ever read of the history of the "Dukedog" Class of the Great Western Railway?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Perhaps the euphoria concerning the Class 230 unit can subside until it has finally emerged from its testing period and received full acceptance.

Is this too much to ask?

Perhaps the negativity concerning the Class 230 unit can subside until it has finally emerged from its testing period and received full acceptance.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[43096]

That's an impossible question to answer - it all depends on what they find. If the cause is obvious and the fire protection did what it was supposed to have (meaning there was no flame intrusion into the passenger compartment), they could have a preliminary report out in a few days.



If the cause was something non-obvious then it may take a lot longer as they rule out branches of the fault tree. Hence my comment earlier that hopefully there was a loose hose dangling somewhere...

Nothing to say RAIB will investigate. If the cause is obvious and there's no real learning points, then they will probably not bother.

 

[furnessvale]

Those of us with Class 142 Pacers (another "innovative" product) still running in our areas may see another unusual "branch line saver" unit as a bridge too far...

Even if the other alternative turned out to be closure of the branch?

 

[najaB]

Nothing to say RAIB will investigate. If the cause is obvious and there's no real learning points, then they will probably not bother.

I think it's fair to say that they'll be 'taking an interest' at the very least. I agree that if the cause is obvious any report may be a one-liner.