Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bertie the bus]

Wanting increased capacity isn't the same thing as wanting a withdrawn tube train just as wanting more family time isn't the same thing as wanting redundancy.

 

[najaB]

Wanting increased capacity isn't the same thing as wanting a withdrawn tube train just as wanting more family time isn't the same thing as wanting redundancy.

That's possibly the worst analogy I've seen posted in any thread.

While 230s aren't brand spanking new, 99.9% of the travelling public would take and be grateful for a seat on one over standing on (or not being able to get on) their TOC's existing fleet of DMUs.

 

[D365]

That's possibly the worst analogy I've seen posted in any thread.

I share a similar sentiment, and not just for the fact that the Class 230 is most certainly not a former 'tube' train.

 

[Bertie the bus]

While 230s aren't brand spanking new, 99.9% of the travelling public would take and be grateful for a seat on one over standing on (or not being able to get on) their TOC's existing fleet of DMUs.

Nicely made up statistic there, just like your constant made up comments about VWC peak services being 'rammed'.

How many Coventry - Nuneaton services, excluding when there are events on at the arena, leave people behind? I've been on that line quite a bit and the daytime services especially are very quiet.

 

[Domh245]

Nicely made up statistic there, just like your constant made up comments about VWC peak services being 'rammed'.

How many Coventry - Nuneaton services, excluding when there are events on at the arena, leave people behind? I've been on that line quite a bit and the daytime services especially are very quiet.

You appear to have forgotten that the released 153 doesn't just disappear into the ether, it can be used to strengthen other services elsewhere, providing capacity where it is needed...

 

[najaB]

How many Coventry - Nuneaton services, excluding when there are events on at the arena, leave people behind? I've been on that line quite a bit and the daytime services especially are very quiet.

I wasn't aware that the 230 design limited its use to the Coventry - Nuneaton line.

Oh, forgot to add: normal people neither know nor care what class of train they are on, or what its heritage is.

 

[D365]

How I wonder if the same reaction was had when the two Class 139 units were introduced on the Stourbridge Town line.

 

[Class 170101]

I imagine so

D319s, anybody?


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Well I think thats a risk that needs to be ironed out before any 319s are modified as so.

 

[QueensCurve]

Well I think thats a risk that needs to be ironed out before any 319s are modified as so.

Re: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2826554#post2826554

I don't think it kills Class 230 any more than an early fatal fire on the launch pad killed the Apollo Moon Landings.

Clearly there will be teething problems for a project of this type and they can be rectified. Any safety concerns will have to be laid to rest.

Since I haven't commented on the project before I will do so here.

While many have decried the project, I think it is potentially a good idea.

The trains are London's cast-offs but they are in good nick. When I have traveled on them I have found them comfortable and to have good ambiance.

Adverse comment has been made on the top speed of 60mph. The trains could be of value however on rural routes where the ruling limit is only 60mph That would include, for example, the Cumbrian coast. Moreover if they have enough installed power they could improve journey times with greater acceleration.

Crashworthiness worries have been dealt with by modifications.

It would be nice to keep the original silver livery rather than the rather garish one adopted or those of the TOCs. The trains are good lookiong with their odd slab-sides.

For the record, the are not "tube trains" they are sub-surface trains built to a much larger structure gauge.

 

[Kneedown]

Re: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2826554#post2826554

I don't think it kills Class 230 any more than an early fatal fire on the launch pad killed the Apollo Moon Landings.

Clearly there will be teething problems for a project of this type and they can be rectified. Any safety concerns will have to be laid to rest.

Very true, but have Vivarail got sufficient captial to weather the storm in the same way a larger trainbuilder may have?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is it known yet what the cause was of the previous engine failures on the 230s?

 

[Elecman]

According to Rail issue 817 that has just landed on my doorstep Adrian Shooter says on page 35 that Vivarail have confirmed orders for the 230's although confidentiality clauses forbid him for disclosing who from. Sorry I can't link to the page as its a hard copy magazine.

 

[D365]

According to Rail issue 817 that has just landed on my doorstep Adrian Shooter says on page 35 that Vivarail have confirmed orders for the 230's although confidentiality clauses forbid him for disclosing who from. Sorry I can't link to the page as its a hard copy magazine.

Thanks for your post. Great to have this news to finish off the year with. My gut feeling is that we're going to need all the diesels that we can get our hands on...

To continue on a positive note:

To reassure that there was no fire in the train, it occurred in one of the exterior, detachable engine modules. I will keep you updated.

https://twitter.com/Vivarail/status/814891102767550464

 

[Domh245]

To continue on a positive note:



https://twitter.com/Vivarail/status/814891102767550464

We can also glean from a response to that tweet that they do have a fire protection system, but they didn't choose to say fire suppression system. Perhaps I am reading too much into this, perhaps they just have designed it so that if it burns it won't spread.

 

[The Growl]

I was shocked to see the Coventry Telegraph article.

Such a blow for Vivarail, but the staff need commending for dealing with it so well. Hopefully they'll rebuild from the ashes and turn the class 230 into a success story.

What would be the ordinary timescale for returning a fire damaged unit to service?

Depends on the size of the company doesn't it. They'll spend a while checking out the engine and surrounding area for faults and such, and that will certainly slow it down. It's a good thing this isn't a public funded affair, as we all know what happened to the one in my signature...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How I wonder if the same reaction was had when the two Class 139 units were introduced on the Stourbridge Town line.

At least there were two of them, which is not the case with the solitary Class 230 unit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Adverse comment has been made on the top speed of 60mph. The trains could be of value however on rural routes where the ruling limit is only 60mph That would include, for example, the Cumbrian coast. Moreover if they have enough installed power they could improve journey times with greater acceleration.

Just ask yourself this question......Which TOC runs the services on the Cumbrian Coast line.

What is the particular view of that that particular TOC on the matter of any Class 230 units and see what the rolling stock committed leasing has already been committed by them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to Rail issue 817 that has just landed on my doorstep Adrian Shooter says on page 35 that Vivarail have confirmed orders for the 230's although confidentiality clauses forbid him for disclosing who from.

Does the same confidentiality clauses also forbid revealing the actual number of units?

 

[D365]

At least there were two of them, which is not the case with the solitary Class 230 unit.

Those are production units, during the trial period over the mid-2000s there was only the one "PPM50" unit.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Many trains have issues, I doubt this will affect the train in a significant way.

 

[Harpers Tate]

In any case, it would seem astute, to me, to spend the money on making, and then ironing out the bugs in, one train before proceeding with building (transforming?) others.

 

[HLE]

What, you're saying that they would rather keep the inadequate Class 153?

Ay ay, at least the dogboxes are reliable!

 

[HLE]

Nicely made up statistic there, just like your constant made up comments about VWC peak services being 'rammed'.

How many Coventry - Nuneaton services, excluding when there are events on at the arena, leave people behind? I've been on that line quite a bit and the daytime services especially are very quiet.

Very few times people have been left behind in the peaks - however it's worth noting the next service isn't until an hour later with the same unit, so a very good effort is made to fit as many people on as possible.

I've seen those 153's have 10 people in no.2 end. vestibule.

The 230 would have made a world of difference during the peaks - just the daytime traffic as you say is really quiet!

 

[1179_Clee2]

According to Rail issue 817 that has just landed on my doorstep Adrian Shooter says on page 35 that Vivarail have confirmed orders for the 230's although confidentiality clauses forbid him for disclosing who from. Sorry I can't link to the page as its a hard copy magazine.

It also states that production is going to start in January.
Big Question is who has ordered them and how many have they ordered?

 

[D60]

So, a fire in one of the detachable engine rafts... Also suggestions that the trial unit has already previously experienced engine problems of some kind... And now the suggestion that 'confirmed orders' are in place...
It must be hoped by all concerned, that whatever is causing whichever component(s) it is that is causing the problems, can be isolated and determined quickly, and that there is sufficient scope for a re-engineered/modified solution at this stage of the project..

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Ultimately this is a disappointment for the programme, but certainly won't stop it. There's always some sort of setback in programmes and engine fires can happen. The two LM 172s caught fire underneath, and that was in service. Forgotten now what the reasons were those fires?

Orders in the pipeline sounds interesting if true - First Great Western perhaps? I hope the project succeeds, as it is innovative, and certainly on routes such as COV - NUN, could be very useful!

 

[1179_Clee2]

So, a fire in one of the detachable engine rafts... Also suggestions that the trial unit has already previously experienced engine problems of some kind... And now the suggestion that 'confirmed orders' are in place...
It must be hoped by all concerned, that whatever is causing whichever component(s) it is that is causing the problems, can be isolated and determined quickly, and that there is sufficient scope for a re-engineered/modified solution at this stage of the project..

No suggestion at all!
Exact wording from RAIL magazine as a interview with A Shooter
He adds We do have firm orders but they are subject to confidentiality clauses. But I can say that we will start manufacturing in January I would hope that initially we can tun out a two or three car unit each month but production can be shortened if we get large orders that allow us to achieve efficiencies and economies of scale we have the four track former MoD shed at Long Marston and we are acquiring another shed in which we can fit another four or five cars. This is where they will be stripped out and cleaned up, and structural work done

 

[D60]

No suggestion at all!
Exact wording from RAIL magazine as a interview with A Shooter
He adds We do have firm orders but they are subject to confidentiality clauses. But I can say that we will start manufacturing in January I would hope that initially we can tun out a two or three car unit each month but production can be shortened if we get large orders that allow us to achieve efficiencies and economies of scale we have the four track former MoD shed at Long Marston and we are acquiring another shed in which we can fit another four or five cars. This is where they will be stripped out and cleaned up, and structural work done

Thanks for the further detail..
The main point remains that it must be hoped by all concerned that they can identify and determine what is causing the problems, and that there is a workable solution, at this rather critical moment before ramping up into a production run..

 

[fgwrich]

Those are production units, during the trial period over the mid-2000s there was only the one "PPM50" unit.

And that didn't cover itself in reliability at times. Not least in it's final 'trial' service working between Medsted and Alton on the Mid Hants where it expired, brakes jammed on and hasn't been since.

Ultimately this is a disappointment for the programme, but certainly won't stop it. There's always some sort of setback in programmes and engine fires can happen. The two LM 172s caught fire underneath, and that was in service. Forgotten now what the reasons were those fires?

Orders in the pipeline sounds interesting if true - First Great Western perhaps? I hope the project succeeds, as it is innovative, and certainly on routes such as COV - NUN, could be very useful!

Possibly so. In using these for a few years on some branches would then at least allow GW to start some of the long promised cascades. Although I can still see them having issues with capacity in the future when they reduce themselves down to just 150/2s and 158s. I can see these doing reasonably well on some of the Cornish Branches for example - 3/4 cars for St Ives, 2/3 cars for the Looe Valley Branch? Both close to Depots, both fairly short runs and both release a sprinter for the Mainline.

 

[High Dyke]

It also states that production is going to start in January.
Big Question is who has ordered them and how many have they ordered?

Various Fire & Rescue services for use in training exercises...