South Western Franchise DMU rolling stock renewal

[The Ham]

Why not a new equivalent of the REP/TC system as used for Weymouth trains?
Assuming the "spine" electrification goes ahead, Salisbury could become the handover point at which the power cars are dropped off and a diesel attached. No dead weight being towed around, and with modern couplings the changeover would be much quicker.

The reason that they can't at present (I.e. until the wires reach Salisbury, which could be the middle to end of the next franchise) is that it would involve loco changes at Basingstoke which is already being talked about having 10's of millions of pounds spent on it to improve capacity.

The extra weight is less than that of the passengers and their stuff, so isn't that much of a problem, especially as the diesel engines could be useful near London if there isn't quite enough power to run all the trains.

 

[Class 170101]

Maybe a daft idea but how about Northern having the surplus 185s which can then stay at the depot that maintains and has the knowledge of them now, Northern letting SWT have some more 158/159 to increase capacity?!

Northern needs 20-odd units for the next stage of the franchise plan anyway, if not sooner.

The franchise agreement says 170s or equivalents. However, the TPE franchise agreement said they would get 4 x 170 equivalents to replace the final 4 which went to Chiltern - the 170 equivalents turned out to be 185s through loaning fewer units to Northern!

I think the difficulty with releasing 158s to SWT post-2020 is all the ones in the Northern fleet (including the 8 arriving from Scotrail) should have had a 'Northern Connect' style refurbishment by then.

When does TPE start getting their new trains though? Isn't there going to be something in the region of 24 Class 185s without a user sooner than 2020. I doubt 158s will be able to be sent for refurbishment until some new stock arrives unless there is more slack in the 158s than we know about.

 

[northwichcat]

When does TPE start getting their new trains though? Isn't there going to be something in the region of 24 Class 185s without a user sooner than 2020. I doubt 158s will be able to be sent for refurbishment until some new stock arrives unless there is more slack in the 158s than we know about.

Subject to all new TPE trains entering service to schedule the franchise agreement allows TPE to release:

24 vehicles (8 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 10th November 2019
12 vehicles (4 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 8th December 2019
18 vehicles (6 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 5th January 2020
3 vehicles (1 x 3 car 185) no earlier than 2nd February 2020
6 vehicles (2 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 1st March 2020
3 vehicles (1 x 3 car 185) no earlier than 1st April 2020

Total - 24 units released with a maximum of 12 x 185s being available to transfer to another operator by the December 2019 timetable change but it's unlikely another operator can get crews trains and clearance obtained by December 2019 - unless they go to Northern where they are already cleared for some routes and some staff who transferred from TPE already sign them.

 

[DerekC]

With current line speeds there isn't much argument for replacing Class 159s. Reading from the 5-mile diagrams, between Worting Junction and Waterloo there is about 17 miles of up fast and 8 miles of down fast cleared for 100 mph running by 444/450/442s and HSTs, where the 159s are limited to 90. A new unit which could take advantage of this would save only a minute or so Up and about half that Down, ignoring the effects of stops at Basingstoke or Woking. That's not worth much in a business case, and west of Woking there isn't the fast line capacity problem which exists between Woking and Waterloo, so homogenous speed won't buy much either. There may be other reasons for replacement, but speed doesn't do it! Of course if the line speed were to be increased to a uniform 100 mph the picture would change, but probably not enough to swing it.

 

[Class 170101]

Subject to all new TPE trains entering service to schedule the franchise agreement allows TPE to release:

24 vehicles (8 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 10th November 2019
12 vehicles (4 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 8th December 2019
18 vehicles (6 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 5th January 2020
3 vehicles (1 x 3 car 185) no earlier than 2nd February 2020
6 vehicles (2 x 3 car 185s) no earlier than 1st March 2020
3 vehicles (1 x 3 car 185) no earlier than 1st April 2020

Total - 24 units released with a maximum of 12 x 185s being available to transfer to another operator by the December 2019 timetable change but it's unlikely another operator can get crews trains and clearance obtained by December 2019 - unless they go to Northern where they are already cleared for some routes and some staff who transferred from TPE already sign them.

The 185s to Northern, as per the poster who originally suggested it, I would agree with. Perhaps some of the Class 195s would operate between Newcastle and Carlisle as part of Northern Connect instead of refurbished 158s, Class 158s would go to SWT with Class 185s fulfilling the role Class 195s would have taken probably between Manchester and Barrow / Windermere or Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington.

 

[The Ham]

With current line speeds there isn't much argument for replacing Class 159s. Reading from the 5-mile diagrams, between Worting Junction and Waterloo there is about 17 miles of up fast and 8 miles of down fast cleared for 100 mph running by 444/450/442s and HSTs, where the 159s are limited to 90. A new unit which could take advantage of this would save only a minute or so Up and about half that Down, ignoring the effects of stops at Basingstoke or Woking. That's not worth much in a business case, and west of Woking there isn't the fast line capacity problem which exists between Woking and Waterloo, so homogenous speed won't buy much either. There may be other reasons for replacement, but speed doesn't do it! Of course if the line speed were to be increased to a uniform 100 mph the picture would change, but probably not enough to swing it.

The main units being suggested that would be capable of 100 mph running were the 185's, the train for that suggestion was that they would be available to supplement the existing fleet.

Any new units works be subject to the standard speeds that the units are available in. That would likely result in 90mph for some types of units whilst other companies offering 100mph units as they don't have a suitable 90mph design.

 

[The Growl]

Is it possible bombardier could swoop in and provide some 172s? Or if those new units up North, or in East Anglia are succesful, some may be considered for the new franchise.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is it possible bombardier could swoop in and provide some 172s? Or if those new units up North, or in East Anglia are succesful, some may be considered for the new franchise.

I don't think that Bombardier would offer Turbostars now, anything they did offer would probably be based off of the Aventra design

 

[northwichcat]

The 185s to Northern, as per the poster who originally suggested it, I would agree with. Perhaps some of the Class 195s would operate between Newcastle and Carlisle as part of Northern Connect instead of refurbished 158s, Class 158s would go to SWT with Class 185s fulfilling the role Class 195s would have taken probably between Manchester and Barrow / Windermere or Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington.

The problem is Arriva have to refurbish all the Norrthern DMUs by the end of 2019 and the 158s are required to get a higher standard of refurbishment than the other trains so if they start releasing 158s in 2020 they are starting to release trains they'll have just spent a lot of money doing up.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think that Bombardier would offer Turbostars now, anything they did offer would probably be based off of the Aventra design

Reportedly in response to the Arriva ITT for Northern multiple units Bombardier offered a bid of Aventra EMUs and said they weren't interested in offering a diesel option to fulfil the other part of the requirement.

 

[The Ham]

Reportedly in response to the Arriva ITT for Northern multiple units Bombardier offered a bid of Aventra EMUs and said they weren't interested in offering a diesel option to fulfil the other part of the requirement.

Could that be down to the not being enough units to justify a new DMU design, although at circa 225 coaches it still wouldn't be enough to justify developing a new DMU.

 

[Helvellyn]

With current line speeds there isn't much argument for replacing Class 159s. Reading from the 5-mile diagrams, between Worting Junction and Waterloo there is about 17 miles of up fast and 8 miles of down fast cleared for 100 mph running by 444/450/442s and HSTs, where the 159s are limited to 90. A new unit which could take advantage of this would save only a minute or so Up and about half that Down, ignoring the effects of stops at Basingstoke or Woking. That's not worth much in a business case, and west of Woking there isn't the fast line capacity problem which exists between Woking and Waterloo, so homogenous speed won't buy much either. There may be other reasons for replacement, but speed doesn't do it! Of course if the line speed were to be increased to a uniform 100 mph the picture would change, but probably not enough to swing it.

Better acceleration could be another justification though. The 158s/159s are not the quickest at getting away. Plus not uncommon for the xx:30 off Basingstoke (stops at Woking) to have the xx:35 444 (stops at Clapham Junction) end end up beside it just outside Waterloo. Whilst the WoE service is awaiting a platform it's not a five minute wait before the 444 appears alongside, plus that train has had to get in/out of the Platform 7 loop at Clapham.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What % of the fuel used for a return trip between Exeter and Waterloo is used between Basingstoke and Waterloo? Would it justify bi-modes in the future to eliminate all diesel running into Waterloo?

 

[3141]

The reason that they can't at present (I.e. until the wires reach Salisbury, which could be the middle to end of the next franchise) is that it would involve loco changes at Basingstoke which is already being talked about having 10's of millions of pounds spent on it to improve capacity.

In one of the threads about the future use of class 442s (but I don't know where it is) I suggested that the traction changeover point should be just west of Worting Junction, where a central loop would be constructed for a diesel loco to wait. To do this would require extending the third rail for not more than a mile, and it would get the changeover point out of the way of the larger number of trains on the main line to Southampton.

 

[northwichcat]

Could that be down to the not being enough units to justify a new DMU design, although at circa 225 coaches it still wouldn't be enough to justify developing a new DMU.

If they don't develop a concept they'll deliver 0 carriages. If they develop a concept it could be no-one requires any after the initial order (like with the 175s) or they could carry on getting more orders for 8 years (like with the 170s.)

 

[vikingdriver]

Better acceleration could be another justification though. The 158s/159s are not the quickest at getting away. Plus not uncommon for the xx:30 off Basingstoke (stops at Woking) to have the xx:35 444 (stops at Clapham Junction) end end up beside it just outside Waterloo. Whilst the WoE service is awaiting a platform it's not a five minute wait before the 444 appears alongside, plus that train has had to get in/out of the Platform 7 loop at Clapham.

It could accelerate like the space shuttle but it'll still catch up whatever comes off the Pompey direct and stops at Clapham Junction ahead of it as the 159s currently do. The vast majority of the time we'll sit at the home signal for Clapham Junction waiting for the up Pompey (or whatever it is) to clear the platform or get there just as the signal clears.

 

[D365]

What % of the fuel used for a return trip between Exeter and Waterloo is used between Basingstoke and Waterloo? Would it justify bi-modes in the future to eliminate all diesel running into Waterloo?

A more prudent question would be whether the third rail supply has the capacity to power more trains, on top of the Class 707s and the Class 442 proposal.

 

[The Growl]

A more prudent question would be whether the third rail supply has the capacity to power more trains, on top of the Class 707s and the Class 442 proposal.

With an energy crisis apparently looming over our heads, so much that we trust the Chinese to build a remote control nuclear power station, this will certainly be a key question worth asking.

 

[HSTEd]

A more prudent question would be whether the third rail supply has the capacity to power more trains, on top of the Class 707s and the Class 442 proposal.

Considering that the power supply will still function outside peak hours with the same capacity as at peak hours it is likely that even if peak output is constrained that large numbers of diesels could still be converted to electric traction.

The advantage of an electrodiesel is that in this context they could always force diesel operation during peak times - such that these extra 'electric' trains would only draw power when the supply could support them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could all the substations between Waterloo and Basingstoke be upgraded to allow in theory every passenger path to be 12 car long Desiros?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could all the substations between Waterloo and Basingstoke be upgraded to allow in theory every passenger path to be 12 car long Desiros?

It's only a case of paying for it. DC power supply strengthening is taking place as part of existing projects, there's no reason why more cannot be done.

Referring to the Sep 16 enhancements plan milestones, you have:

Page 49 Kent Traction Power Upgrade
Page 51 Route 1 (Kent) – Power Supply Enhancements
Page 54 New Cross Grid feeder upgrade
Page 78 Sussex Traction Power Supply Upgrade
Page 124 South London HV Grid (Wimbledon) upgrade - affects both SWT and SE inner areas
Page 128 Wessex Traction Power Supply Upgrade
Page 131 DC regeneration - allows increased system voltage

Just normal business in the SR...

 

[The Growl]

Could all the substations between Waterloo and Basingstoke be upgraded to allow in theory every passenger path to be 12 car long Desiros?

SWT don't already have 12 car long 450s?

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT don't already have 12 car long 450s?

To give SpacePhoenix the benefit of the doubt, I assumed he actually meant "could the power supply cope with the 2 x West of England line DMUs per hour also being run as full length EMUs", on top of all the existing ones, which as we know nearly all run at full length in the peaks, whether 12.450 or 10.444.

Anything running as 10.444 could be replaced by 12.450 in any case, as we know that they are already controlled to draw the same power.

But you can never be sure...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

To give SpacePhoenix the benefit of the doubt, I assumed he actually meant "could the power supply cope with the 2 x West of England line DMUs per hour also being run as full length EMUs", on top of all the existing ones, which as we know nearly all run at full length in the peaks, whether 12.450 or 10.444.

Yep, was thinking bi-modes (3x4 car), running in electric mode from Waterloo-Basingstoke and then switching to diesel mode at Basingstoke, using the paths that the 158/159s run on.

If SWTs were to replace all their 455 and 456s could all their Desiros and Junipers along with whatever else new build they went for that runs off of the 3rd handle an increase on supply voltage (like what LU have done on their sub-surface lines once they went over (apart from some parts of the District) to using all S stock?

 

[HSTEd]

All the units on the region are all fairly modern and designed for something close to the existing 750Vdc specification.
The problem is that further increases in voltage would take it outside the EU-regulation defined voltage range for 750Vdc supplies, and beyond the scope of the current derogation that is used in the UK.

The simplest solution is just to add more rectifier stations between the existing ones.

Out of interest does anyone know if the 442s could keep up with the Sprinters when they were handling Weymouth trains? That would give you an idea for how much power you actually need in this application.

 

[sk688]

For those , who have said that 158/9 are hamstrung by their 90mph top speed , could SWT not do something like what LM have done with their 350/1s and upgrade the trains , so that they can reach 100mph ?

 

[cjmillsnun]

For those , who have said that 158/9 are hamstrung by their 90mph top speed , could SWT not do something like what LM have done with their 350/1s and upgrade the trains , so that they can reach 100mph ?

No. I doubt it is worth upgrading a BR design and units that are 23 years old to get an extra 10MPH top speed. LM upgraded a train that was still in production (just). I suspect NR will rescind grandfather rights should an upgrade be done.

 

[vikingdriver]

For those , who have said that 158/9 are hamstrung by their 90mph top speed , could SWT not do something like what LM have done with their 350/1s and upgrade the trains , so that they can reach 100mph ?

We had the 100mph 170s and all that happened was you sat at the same red signal as you do in a 159, just for longer. Going up we meet a Desiro from the Pompey direct at Woking and catch it up again at Clapham Junction, on the xx50 from Waterloo we catch up a down Pompey at Woking then the Poole stopper at Basingstoke so if they did decide on an upgrade (as I understand it, it is to do with the gearbox), it wouldn't make a difference unless the timetable was altered. A bit more grunt on the mule would be nice as some of the fleet struggle in places.

 

[Class 170101]

Remember its your minimum speeds one needs to look at more than your maximum speeds.

 

[MichaelAMW]

No. I doubt it is worth upgrading a BR design and units that are 23 years old to get an extra 10MPH top speed. LM upgraded a train that was still in production (just). I suspect NR will rescind grandfather rights should an upgrade be done.

There's always the question of whether they can be maintained to a higher standard whereby they can be permitted to do 100 mph, without any other substantial alteration. It's a regular topic on here to talk about HSTs out of Paddington doing 128, 130, 135, 136 etc... 159s do 90 mph because that's what is allowed but is there any insurmountable reason why it can't be faster?