Gatwick Express "every 15 minutes"

[bb21]

This seems to be worth repeating.

Obviously a lot of enthusiasts have a problem with Gatwick Express (is it worth paying the premium... is it worth having a dedicated Airport service... is the stock suitable... should it be integrated with other services... should the fares be better explained... should TSGN be allowed to treat Gatwick Express as different to Southern... maybe add in something sarcastic about the use of the word "Express"...), but that's a separate argument.

The question that the OP raised boils down to "should the TOC be forced to change their advertising when there are temporary service alterations".

When a local bus route in these parts was downgraded from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to accommodate roadworks, I didn't expect the bus company to take down the "every ten minutes" branding from the side of their vehicles - but I did expect them to update the timetables. I similarly wouldn't expect them to take the branding down on days when some bus drivers were on strike.

Dunno. Maybe Gatwick Express should change their adverts for the duration of Leaf Fall Season, maybe they shouldn't. But 95% of the argument on here seems to be relating to chips on shoulders re wider issues with Gatwick Express - I'm not saying I'm a fan of the current set up and I think that "Airport" passengers on some lines seem to count for more than "normal" passengers - but those kind of issues should really be debated in a different thread.

I think the context is quite important. Nothing is absolute.

Much of the target audience of these adverts will be short-term visitors, who GTR hope to attract onto GatEx services through such publicity. I won't attempt to guess whether this more or less than half of their target audience, as no doubt they also have longer-term objectives in mind hoping to build up a brand with these expectations. Suffice to say that the short-term visitors are a significant market and will not be negligible in number.

For these short-term visitors, the temporary nature of such timetable alterations will mean very little. To them, the "temporary" timetable is the timetable. I can't imagine someone attracted to the service by such publicity being overly impressed when the next service is in 25 minutes and planned to do so.

Some will argue that it is all relative. It will depend on the proportion of customers directly affected by such gaps in service, however I am of the opinion that it is difficult to pinpoint who would potentially be affected amongst short-term visitors - those with flights before such gaps in service can probably be excluded, but that's about it. In addition, why should anyone be subject to such disappointing experiences after paying a premium fare? Premium fare should equate to higher quality, and expecting services to run as advertised is hardly asking much.

Anything not directly related to these core issues about potential false advertising of service levels can quite safely be ignored imo, as they are not really relevant. GatEx threads on this forum will always attract a lot of interest for various reasons.

 

[sammyg901]

I can't remember exactly the details or which direction - but my understanding from the Thameslink consultation is that the Gatwick Express will operate at uneven 10/20 minute intervals in the new timetable

So presumably they'll need to update their marketing - though I guess they could then say "up to every 10 minutes"!!

 

[All Line Rover]

If we're going to go down that route then VTWC might as well claim "up to every three minutes between London and Manchester" (Thursdays and Fridays only at 18:57 and 19:00).

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure there are companies which make claims in their marketing (while being technically correct) with no more basis than VT would be if they said that, ALR. It's not good, but it's what they do. I'll come back if I manage to find any.

 

[Lockwood]

You work in GTR's marketing department don't you?!

I'm trying to channel my inner Sir Humphrey

 

[IKB]

I've got to pick up this point about being overtaken. It isn't normally* going to happen, regardless of what the timetable says. Once the tracks merge together outside Victoria station there is only one place that the trains could pass each other before the tracks diverge just before Gatwick station. That place is East Croydon where the two mainline tracks split into three with a reversible line in the middle. Any suggestion of overtaking is going to be down to timetable padding.

As I mentioned in post #8.

I can't remember exactly the details or which direction - but my understanding from the Thameslink consultation is that the Gatwick Express will operate at uneven 10/20 minute intervals in the new timetable

So presumably they'll need to update their marketing - though I guess they could then say "up to every 10 minutes"!!

If the departures are going to be at uneven intervals then it would make sense to promote it along the lines of "X departures an hour".

 

[Busaholic]

Buses on the 14/18 routes in Cornwall advertise 'up to every 10 minutes' on the back (the 'up to' in much smaller print) but Penzance and St Ives never get anything better than a half-hourly service and Hayle 4 buses per hour: only the eastern part of the joint routes gets a 10 minute service.

 

[All Line Rover]

Some Gatwick Express services have been calling (and scheduled to call) at East Croydon today. Presumably "Southern only" tickets are being sold to all passengers to/from Gatwick Airport?

 

[bb21]

I believe they have been accepting Southern Only tickets on GatEx on strike days.

 

[James Wake]

Although when I was going down the escalator at Gatwick Airport one day of the strike action, I saw a passenger with an Any Permitted Gatwick Airport to London Victoria ticket, so presumably he either bought it before the strikes were announced, or the "helpers" at Gatwick Airport are still trying to fleece tourists arriving by not making them aware of ticket inter-availability.

 

[yorkie]

Some Gatwick Express services have been calling (and scheduled to call) at East Croydon today. Presumably "Southern only" tickets are being sold to all passengers to/from Gatwick Airport?

No; the company will be charging passengers making the premium Victoria-Gatwick journey the higher fare of £19.90 (though many people making longer journeys are charged significantly less than that)

GTR only adhere to the Ticketing Settlement Agreement by accepting their own fares routed "Southern Only" or "Thameslink Only" without quibble on their services branded "Gatwick Express" when severe disruption is occurring.

At other times, they do quibble but usually relent if someone presents relevant documentation; but any passenger who is charged a supplement needs to see this thread: Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement" and is welcome to contact me for advice (so far I have a 100% success record in this area!)

You can usually tell if they are accepting their cheaper fares by looking to see if the Platform 13/14 gateline is in use and/or if the huge gate between platforms 12/13 is open. People are charged the lower Oyster/CPC fare if they can use the gateline for Platforms 8-12 and walk through to Platforms 13/14.

 

[londonbridge]

Thats what I thought too and I cant see anything on their website that makes the claim that it is solely for departures from Victoria. And to be honest being pedantic about 3 -4 minutes extra really is scraping the barrel to knock them due to the hatred of GTR by some on here.

IIRC, the tv advert I used to see said "The Gatwick Express goes from 0 to Gatwick in eighteen hundred seconds, Non-stop from Victoria every fifteen minutes".

edit: found it on youtube. I knew it was an old ad, but didn't realise quite how old!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llOVuBnRpek

 

[All Line Rover]

Gatwick Express are also attempting to charge premium fares on 26 Dec (Boxing Day) - £26.70 for a day return compared to £15.50 for "Southern Only" - despite only running a half-hourly service and, worse, not running non-stop trains even though the first sentence on the homepage of the Gatwick Express website reads "The Gatwick Express is a non-stop train...".

All "Gatwick Express" trains on 26 Dec call at East Croydon, with a scheduled journey time of 40 minutes compared to 38 minutes for Southern services (which also call at Clapham Junction)!

 

[Robertj21a]

Gatwick Express are also attempting to charge premium fares on 26 Dec (Boxing Day) - £26.70 for a day return compared to £15.50 for "Southern Only" - despite only running a half-hourly service and, worse, not running non-stop trains even though the first sentence on the homepage of the Gatwick Express website reads "The Gatwick Express is a non-stop train...".

All "Gatwick Express" trains on 26 Dec call at East Croydon, with a scheduled journey time of 40 minutes compared to 38 minutes for Southern services (which also call at Clapham Junction)!

I doubt the world will end over 2 minutes......

Will you be referring them under the Trade Descriptions Act ?

 

[yorkie]

I doubt the world will end over 2 minutes......

You're completely missing the point. It's not about 2 minutes; it's about the fact people are mislead into paying £19.80 instead of £8 for what they think is a faster service, but which is - today, and several other days, including every weekday at the times most people travel - actually booked to be a slower service.

I'm not aware of any other company that misleads people about its own products as badly as this.

 

[najaB]

I'm not aware of any other company that misleads people about its own products as badly as this.

I take it you don't watch many TV ads then? It's pretty much the raison d'etre of much modern advertising: making people believe something about your product without ever actually making the claim.

 

[Robertj21a]

You're completely missing the point. It's not about 2 minutes; it's about the fact people are mislead into paying £19.80 instead of £8 for what they think is a faster service, but which is - today, and several other days, including every weekday at the times most people travel - actually booked to be a slower service.

I'm not aware of any other company that misleads people about its own products as badly as this.

So why doesn't someone make a formal complaint then ?. Having a rant on here won't get it sorted.

Mind you, if people are silly enough to pay £19.80 just for a 'faster' service then they probably deserve to be 'had'.

 

[yorkie]

So why doesn't someone make a formal complaint then ?

People have.

Having a rant on here won't get it sorted.

If we take that attitude we may as well close the forum

Fortunately you are, in fact, very mistaken if you think posts on this forum have no influence.

In practice, a post on this forum is actually more likely to be read by influential people than a complaint to any relevant body, and at least people can be warned of what GTR are up to.

Mind you, if people are silly enough to pay £19.80 just for a 'faster' service then they probably deserve to be 'had'.

Most people who are duped into paying those fares appear to be tourists. Is that really your view of how we should be treating them?!

 

[Robertj21a]

People have.

If we take that attitude we may as well close the forum

Fortunately you are, in fact, very mistaken if you think posts on this forum have no influence.

In practice, a post on this forum is actually more likely to be read by influential people than a complaint to any relevant body, and at least people can be warned of what GTR are up to.

Most people who are duped into paying those fares appear to be tourists. Is that really your view of how we should be treating them?!

I despair........

 

[najaB]

Most people who are duped into paying those fares appear to be tourists. Is that really your view of how we should be treating them?!

Hmm... Are they Americans?

 

[yorkie]

I despair........

The feeling is mutual!

 

[All Line Rover]

This seems to be a genuine Gatwick Express PR channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1bUb3iSDOA), and the description (for a video from 2008) is a perfect encapsulation of what Gatwick Express claim:

Gatwick Express is the fastest and most reliable way to travel between Central London (Victoria station) and Gatwick Airport. Services depart every 15 minutes and take just 30 minutes non-stop.

Gatwick Express is not the fastest.

It is not the most reliable (even on Boxing Day, some GX trains were cancelled while all Southern trains ran as scheduled).

Services do not depart every 15 minutes (even on a typical working day).

Services are not always scheduled to take 30 minutes (and not just on Boxing Day).

Services do not run consistently non-stop (again, not just on Boxing Day).

 

[All Line Rover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCnEQH4YlOg

"...I like the fact that the service is always reliable..."

"and it's always on time..."

Wonderful material for a comedy show at Victoria station for Southern commuters!

 

[All Line Rover]

Some more crackers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJP8QgNbZ4

"...our internationally renowned excellent customer service..." (station staff)

"Although we're about to be managed by Southern, my job will not change. I'll still be on the non-stop service to provide any information regarding London or the airport, and sell you tickets..." (on-board staff)

"...I'm here to make your life easier..." (station staff)

No offence is intended at all to the on-board staff who were made redundant, who I would prefer to still be around.

 

[najaB]

Gatwick Express is not the fastest.

It is not the most reliable (even on Boxing Day, some GX trains were cancelled while all Southern trains ran as scheduled).

Services do not depart every 15 minutes (even on a typical working day).

Services are not always scheduled to take 30 minutes (and not just on Boxing Day).

Services do not run consistently non-stop (again, not just on Boxing Day).

Were any of those claims true in 2008, and do they make the same claims now? You can't damn then now for the sins of eight years ago (at least you can't take then to the ASA).

 

[infobleep]

I've got to pick up this point about being overtaken. It isn't normally* going to happen, regardless of what the timetable says. Once the tracks merge together outside Victoria station there is only one place that the trains could pass each other before the tracks diverge just before Gatwick station. That place is East Croydon where the two mainline tracks split into three with a reversible line in the middle. Any suggestion of overtaking is going to be down to timetable padding.

*OK, there have been occasions where engineering works on a Sunday have seen GatEx services diverted via slower lines in London. On those occasions it has indeed been possible for the trains to be overtaken, but that is a different scenario to that one being discussed here.

But from a passenger compensation point of view, the only timetable that matters is the public timetable and not the working timetable. Thus I take the view the only timetable that matters is that one.

When monitoring performance I'm sure they also use that one and not the working timetable but maybe someone can say otherwise if not so.

 

[kieron]

People have.

What happened? If a complaint was made to the ASA which was rejected, the reasoning behind it may give some indication of how much anyone can expect from rail company web sites.

 

[maniacmartin]

I complained to the ASA back in June and received this response

For your information the matter in question was previously investigated by our Investigations Team earlier this month. Generally, we will allow advertisers’ a period of grace whereby they can make the relevant changes to their ads accordingly. As we have received assurances from the advertiser that they will change their marketing communications to reflect our findings, at this present moment we will not be investigating the matter any further. However, if you do see the ad communicating the claim in future i.e. next month, please do not hesitate to contact us with a screen shot of the ad.

 

[yorkie]

Others have had similar responses, some many months ago now, so I think it is time to go back and complain again.

They have large posters going on about 30 minute journey times (at times most people travel they are booked for longer, and that's before you get into the inevitable delays), 15 minute frequencies and other nonsense.

People miss flights because they're not told of earlier trains which are booked to take 31 minutes.

Try turning up at Victoria as the 1742 is pulling out and see what advice they give you. Will you be advised to take the 1746 or 1757? Nope; you'll be told to wait until the 1800, which is slower, and booked to take 36 minutes (and is rarely on time when a full timetable is operating), so you won't be at Gatwick until 1836 (if on time) - almost an hour later.

 

[LAX54]

So would I be right in saying that the xx.45 and xx.15 are ones that terminate at the Airport and the xx.00 and xx.30 are extended to Brighton ?
WTT say the terminators take 30 / 31 mins and the Brightons 28 mins