IEP criticism by Roger Ford

[Dave1987]

I'm sure someone who had bought an expensive train ticket and then couldn't get a seat on an Intercity service would say exactly the same thing.

The provision of extra seats can surely only be good thing can't it?

So why not make them 3+2 seating if the aim is to cram as many seats as possible in?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

So why not make them 3+2 seating if the aim is to cram as many seats as possible in?

Because then you can't get as many in for standing room! Our £5,000 a year season ticket just entities us to travel - it doesn't in any way entitle us to a seat. If you want the seat entitlement, then it means exchanging your £5,000 a year ticket for the £8,000 a year ticket.

At least, that's what the DfT have taught us with the 700s on Thameslink.

 

[RichmondCommu]

For those who say it's good to pack in more seats at any cost, then I say why bother with seats at all? Or carriage roofs for that matter? Why not go back tot he days when we travelled in open wagons? I'm sure that would be very efficient in terms of getting people form A to B

I've yet to meet a single rail traveler who would rather stand than be able to sit down. Perhaps you buck that trend?

Go back to using open wagons and a lot of travelers would freeze to death although I would have thought that this was obvious.

 

[RichmondCommu]

So why not make them 3+2 seating if the aim is to cram as many seats as possible in?

I don't know. You'd need to ask Hitachi / DfT that question.

 

[Starmill]

This resurfaces in the January print edition. I don't get what's "not intercity" about the layout. If anything it's going to be more intercity than a GW mark 3 because it has lower seat backs and more legroom.

 

[Starmill]

My goodness, if anyone's petrified of change on here it's yourself, going by your reaction to any suggestion to expand the network from its current wizened 1994 state. Are there any reinstatements not currently underway that you do support ?

I have asked tbct which 10 projects for new stations and lines he considers most worthwhile as he spends so much time criticising them, he did not give an answer. Sadly this is not the appropriate thread for that!

The provision of extra seats can surely only be good thing can't it?

More trains, longer platforms, more space.

 

[yorkie]

I've yet to meet a single rail traveler who would rather stand than be able to sit down. Perhaps you buck that trend?

Go back to using open wagons and a lot of travelers would freeze to death although I would have thought that this was obvious.

I see people choosing to stand over being crammed in, on probably every busy train I get!

Even on journeys like Peterborough to London. On shorter journeys, such as short hops on metro systems, it's absolutely the norm.

I can't believe you've never seen this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand rather than sit in the 3 side of 3+2 if 2 of the seats are already occupied. Yet that appears very much to be a cultural thing very much dependent on area. On the south WCML we don't like 3+2 and don't use the middle seat much of the time. On the GWML, everyone seems to use it.

 

[najaB]

More trains, longer platforms, more space.

Money, money, money.

 

[D1009]

I stand rather than sit in the 3 side of 3+2 if 2 of the seats are already occupied. Yet that appears very much to be a cultural thing very much dependent on area. On the south WCML we don't like 3+2 and don't use the middle seat much of the time. On the GWML, everyone seems to use it.

Similarly, in mark 1 days many people preferred to stand rather than sit 4 a side in a compartment, which is what you were often offered on "Inter City".

 

[Doctor Fegg]

On the south WCML we don't like 3+2 and don't use the middle seat much of the time. On the GWML, everyone seems to use it.

Fairly common to see people standing for Charlbury-Oxford or Hanborough-Oxford journeys (on Turbos) rather than squeezing into 3-abreast seating.

 

[class26]

Fairly common to see people standing for Charlbury-Oxford or Hanborough-Oxford journeys (on Turbos) rather than squeezing into 3-abreast seating.

If that`s the case then the extra seat is just wasting space !

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that's the case then the extra seat is just wasting space !

Indeed it is, which is why many TOCs are removing it in favour of 2+2 seating but with narrow seats, which means more standing room in the saloon rather than people just cramming into the doorways.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I stand rather than sit in the 3 side of 3+2 if 2 of the seats are already occupied. Yet that appears very much to be a cultural thing very much dependent on area. On the south WCML we don't like 3+2 and don't use the middle seat much of the time. On the GWML, everyone seems to use it.

One of the first railway oddities I discovered in the 1960s was that all Western and Southern region long-distance trains had 4-a-side compartments and no armrests.
Meanwhile everybody else (LMR, ER, ScR) had 3-a-side compartments with armrests.
Definitely a regional/cultural thing.
Over the years, we have gravitated more to the "Southern" concept than anything else (closed stations, hard seats, high density, unsmiling...).

 

[yorksrob]

One of the first railway oddities I discovered in the 1960s was that all Western and Southern region long-distance trains had 4-a-side compartments and no armrests.
Meanwhile everybody else (LMR, ER, ScR) had 3-a-side compartments with armrests.
Definitely a regional/cultural thing.
Over the years, we have gravitated more to the "Southern" concept than anything else (closed stations, hard seats, high density, unsmiling...).

On the Southern it tended to be 3 a side compartments for 1st and 4 a side for standard for longer distance.

I'm not sure you can blame hard seats entirely on the Southern. A phase 1 CIG was a very spacious, well padded environment, even in standard. The CEP refurbs may have been trailblazers in hard seat technologies.

 

[yorksrob]

I have asked tbct which 10 projects for new stations and lines he considers most worthwhile as he spends so much time criticising them, he did not give an answer. Sadly this is not the appropriate thread for that!
.

That would be interesting to hear in terms of the heavy rail network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll give you the "unsmiling" bit. I've noticed a marked difference in attitude between station staff south of the Thames and north thereof.

 

[physics34]

its clear we need a department within the DfT or a passenger group whose role is to rule and judge over passenger comfort... no doubt regulations and cost are being prioritised above comfort. You cant do much about regs but you can surely improve comfort. These seats are usable for 20 plus years... money shouldnt be an object, they repay themselves in good time.......

 

[yorksrob]

Money, money, money.

Too long in hard seats will have the passengers crying out SOS.

 

[physics34]

On the Southern it tended to be 3 a side compartments for 1st and 4 a side for standard for longer distance.

I'm not sure you can blame hard seats entirely on the Southern. A phase 1 CIG was a very spacious, well padded environment, even in standard. The CEP refurbs may have been trailblazers in hard seat technologies.

CIGs badly missed.

 

[bastien]

Too long in hard seats will have the passengers crying out SOS.

At Waterloo.

 

[bramling]

Indeed it is, which is why many TOCs are removing it in favour of 2+2 seating but with narrow seats, which means more standing room in the saloon rather than people just cramming into the doorways.

Yet on Great Northern there are loud protests about the 387s having reduced seats compared to the 317s/321s.

I think the point is that, yes, people are happy to stand for short journeys. However there comes a tipping point, and I'd suggest that tipping point is actually quite low, where people will take seat, even if it's the cramped middle seat of a 2+3. Certainly on Great Northern the middle seats *are* used. Last to fill, by all means, but most certainly used.

Obviously everyone will be in favour of 2+2 providing it's someone else who has to stand.

 

[najaB]

At Waterloo.

Mamma mia! The puns have started.

 

[physics34]

Mamma mia! The puns have started.

Well, The Winner Takes it All.

 

[Muzer]

I really don't understand why nobody will Take A Chance on the IEP.

 

[najaB]

I really don't understand why nobody will Take A Chance on the IEP.

I Have a Dream that it'll turn out to be a Super Trouper.

 

[route:oxford]

its clear we need a department within the DfT or a passenger group whose role is to rule and judge over passenger comfort...

The seat that is comfortable for the 6'6" Oxford Rower with rock-hard abs, straight back, broad shoulders and glutes that could crack walnuts - will never be comfortable with the railforum contributor whose bottom is so saggy that there's no cushioning for his coccyx.

If you want a more comfortable seat... Start with your own...

 

[yorksrob]

The seat that is comfortable for the 6'6" Oxford Rower with rock-hard abs, straight back, broad shoulders and glutes that could crack walnuts - will never be comfortable with the railforum contributor whose bottom is so saggy that there's no cushioning for his coccyx...

If I could meet the said Oxford rower sitting opposite, it might make the journey in a hard seat more bearable

 

[BurtonM]

I Have a Dream that it'll turn out to be a Super Trouper.

As long as the Arrival is on time...

 

[jimm]

If that`s the case then the extra seat is just wasting space !

Not when the same Turbo gets anywhere near West London it's not.