South Western Franchise DMU rolling stock renewal

[Suraggu]

Bit of a random question,

With the South Western Franchise to be decided by February 2017, will there be an eventual replacement of the Class 158/159 fleet or are they capable of being able to deliver the franchise specifications until the end of the next franchise?

Obviously no scope for any electrification with the debacle going on with the Great Western and Midland Mainline electrification and its soaring costs, so DMU services will obviously remain.

I was not sure if the 90mph max speed will have an effect on the increase of services of the South Western Mainline although 10mph difference is probably minimal.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's been hinted at there being changes for the exact reason you give, standardising at 100 mph line speed. Transfer of some ex TPE 185s (or not - dependent on opinion) has been regularly discussed ever since the ITT came out.

I doubt anyone will know the answer until it is announced.

 

[Suraggu]

It's been hinted at there being changes for the exact reason you give, standardising at 100 mph line speed. Transfer of some ex TPE 185s (or not - dependent on opinion) has been regularly discussed ever since the ITT came out.

I doubt anyone will know the answer until it is announced.

Whilst 185's will give an acceleration and top speed advantage for the standardised 100mph line speed, surely they will be a downgrade in seating capacity and cost the new franchisee more to run in fuel and revenue with the dreaded lack of corridor connections.

 

[swt_passenger]

Whilst 185's will give an acceleration and top speed advantage for the standardised 100mph line speed, surely they will be a downgrade in seating capacity and cost the new franchisee more to run in fuel and revenue with the dreaded lack of corridor connections.

Agree entirely. But I didn't want to repeat what has already been discussed at length.

 

[dgl]

I suppose the problem SWT has is that apart from the fact the 158/9's have lower top speed that might be liked they are still doing their job really well, they are unimaginably reliable, comfortable and despite the fact they weren't ever meant for the WoE line they seem to do this job magnificently.

Whilst they cannot go on forever and replacements will need to thought about in the near future, other than scoring brownie points for having new trains or for cascading to some other lines that are desperate for more stock but can't justify new builds, I can't see any need for replacement until at least near the end of the next franchise award.

 

[Class 170101]

I would have thought 3rd Rail / Diesel bi-mode units would be more likely, providing the 3rd Rail is up to accepting more electric trains running at peak times.

 

[The Ham]

Whilst 185's will give an acceleration and top speed advantage for the standardised 100mph line speed, surely they will be a downgrade in seating capacity and cost the new franchisee more to run in fuel and revenue with the dreaded lack of corridor connections.

A train formed of 3*185's will still have more seats than a train formed 2*159's, which is what a number of the contra peak services are at present.

The other thing is that by running 185's on some of the quieter services that could release 159's to allow more 158's to be used to run full length trains.

By replacing a few diagrams with 185's it then allowes more capacity to be added within the rest of the services that still need to run by 15x's. (Potentially those 2 coach units that are on sub lease to others are then given a free upgrade to a 159 and some Salisbury 6 services being run by 159's so that the franchise can run more 10 coach trains further of 3+3+2+2, with the 2+2 part running Salisbury - Waterloo so as to maximise their availability)

Of course there are not enough 185's to do anything other than supplement the existing 15x fleet, which is why the above is a reasonable scenario and shouldn't be just dismissed because the capacity of individual units wouldn't the same capacity.

Other options could involve forming 2 (standard class only) and 4 coach units to run in pairs. With the 2+2 running Salisbury 6 services (Salisbury, Romsey, Southampton, Eastleigh, Romsey) and the 4+4's being used on the WofE line. That reduces the number of units that have to run without a link between.

Going even further there could even be an option to create 5 coach units. From memory these could end up with comparable capacity to the existing 9 coach trains, but would result in a LOT of 2 coach units for which there may not be much need for.

All in all, I would suggest that there could be enough benefits from using the 185's that we could end up seeing them on the WofE line in small numbers.

Of course the franchise could be profitable enough to justify a new fleet trains.

Unless there is a leek we won't know until Feb.

 

[40129]

Quick question: How much of the WoE route subject to SP differential speed limits? IIRC cl-185 cannot run at the higher speeds in such circumstances due to their greater weight

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quick question: How much of the WoE route subject to SP differential speed limits? IIRC cl-185 cannot run at the higher speeds in such circumstances due to their greater weight

All line speeds on the WoE are normal (no differentials).
Max speed Worting Jn-Exeter is 85mph (90 between Andover and Salisbury Tunnel).
(from the 2009 SA baseline).

 

[Mordac]

It's not just Sprinter differentials. They can't use MU differentials either.

 

[swissrailpassion]

185s are unsuitable for the Mule. Low capacity and higher weight together with increased fuel consumption combine to make them a poor choice.

 

[The Ham]

185s are unsuitable for the Mule. Low capacity and higher weight together with increased fuel consumption combine to make them a poor choice.

Mule?

Lower capacity than what?

More 15x's of the same length, yes.

Than not being able to have any extra DMU's as there are none and/or running in longer length trains (I.e. 9 coaches vs 6), then no.

Given that there's not a whole load of 158's available then in reality it is either new build DMU (which may only have 10-15 years of use before needing to go elsewhere), bimodal (which may cause power supply issues towards London) or 185's (which have few other options available and could therefore have quite a cheap lease cost, at least cheap enough to offset some of the other running costs).

That's not to say that the 185's aren't without their issues, just by rejecting then it because they'll cost a bit more (it's n like the SAW franchise is sort of income) to run and on a like for like basis they don't have enough capacity isn't really a good enough reason. If we were talking about total fleet replacement, then yes. However we aren't (not least as the aren't enough units to do so), and so any 185's would be to supplement the exist fleet and so could be a viable option, unless there is a reasonable argument as to why they aren't.

 

[capital12]

Maybe a daft idea but how about Northern having the surplus 185s which can then stay at the depot that maintains and has the knowledge of them now, Northern letting SWT have some more 158/159 to increase capacity?!

 

[D365]

Maybe a daft idea but how about Northern having the surplus 185s which can then stay at the depot that maintains and has the knowledge of them now, Northern letting SWT have some more 158/159 to increase capacity?!

Northern needs 20-odd units for the next stage of the franchise plan anyway, if not sooner.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern needs 20-odd units for the next stage of the franchise plan anyway, if not sooner.

The franchise agreement says 170s or equivalents. However, the TPE franchise agreement said they would get 4 x 170 equivalents to replace the final 4 which went to Chiltern - the 170 equivalents turned out to be 185s through loaning fewer units to Northern!

I think the difficulty with releasing 158s to SWT post-2020 is all the ones in the Northern fleet (including the 8 arriving from Scotrail) should have had a 'Northern Connect' style refurbishment by then.

 

[northwichcat]

185s are unsuitable for the Mule.

Mules travel on SWT trains?!

No wonder there's a shortage of space for people on SWT services!

 

[fgwrich]

Mules travel on SWT trains?!

No wonder there's a shortage of space for people on SWT services!

Well, they do in North Wales!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13437279

 

[59CosG95]

Mule?

The West of England Main Line, for whatever reason, was always known as the "Mule" during the BR days.

 

[Muzer]

This route is frequently the busiest of the SWT long-distance services, especially in holiday times. I reckon that more units are definitely needed sooner or later, specifically for the shoulder peaks when you get the sudden influx of holiday traffic plus still quite a few late-running commuters trying to cram onto a 6-coach train. Where they'll come from is another question, though, I somehow can't see 185s being used, for the reasons mentioned. Perhaps if they never ran west of Salisbury, but then you've got another issue of the lack of gangway.

Best solutions would be to cascade 158s from other TOCs. Shame that the consistent cock-ups of electrification kind of put paid to that...

 

[fgwrich]

New units for the South Western?








(Post not intended to be taken seriously)

 

[The Ham]

By my maths the would need to be 24 x 159's just to run a half hourly service between Waterloo and Salisbury with every train being 9 coaches long.

Add to that a further 8 to run an hourly service formed of 6 coaches which run beyond Salisbury to Exeter and you are already close to the 30 x 159's and 5 pairs of 158's (assuming some services are run as 10 coaches rather than 9) that SWT's has and you've not allowed for services to Bristol, those services to Yeovile that don't go to Exeter and the Salisbury 6 services.

Yes there wouldn't need to be that level of service all the time, however having a further 6-8 units (185's) could mean that a limited number of services were run using them if needed (I.e. because of their limits) whilst freeing up some of the existing fleet to strengthen existing services.

Possible options could include an hourly service to Bristol, 3 coach units on the Salisbury 6 services and more 10 coach trains in the peaks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The West of England Main Line, for whatever reason, was always known as the "Mule" during the BR days.

Thank you.

 

[HSTEd]

Best bet would be some form of newbuild third-rail bi-mode.
Worst comes to worst they could run on diesel power at peak times if the power supply limitations are problematic.

 

[The Ham]

Best bet would be some form of newbuild third-rail bi-mode.
Worst comes to worst they could run on diesel power at peak times if the power supply limitations are problematic.

I would be mindful to agree. If there could be 5 coach versions with connecting corridors then they could also be useful in the Weymouth services by using diesel engines to allow longer and/or more frequent services to run.

 

[randyrippley]

Why not a new equivalent of the REP/TC system as used for Weymouth trains?
Assuming the "spine" electrification goes ahead, Salisbury could become the handover point at which the power cars are dropped off and a diesel attached. No dead weight being towed around, and with modern couplings the changeover would be much quicker.

 

[The Ham]

If they were to get new bimodal trains (upgradable to also pick up power from OHLE) with 5 coaches, corridor connections the would be a need for about 45 to run them all as 10 coach units to Weymouth, 10 coach units to Salisbury with an hourly service to Exeter/Bristol and an hourly service to Yeovile/Southampton and Romsey (replacing the Salisbury 6 services).

That would release a lot of 158's, 159's and 444's for use elsewhere.

 

[Helvellyn]

One of the issues with the 158/159 units is that loading/unloading times can be painfully slow. With performance becoming more and more crucial it could be argued that units with better acceleration, a higher maximum speed and the ability to load/unload passengers quicker could be an attractive proposition for either First or Stagecoach to look at.

There has been another thread that stated the 455s could be under threat in the new franchise - despite new traction motors - because DfT want station dwell times tightly regulated on suburban services. Would suggest an add-on order of 80-90 707s could be in the offing if true!

Might just be coincidence, but since the 159/1 refurbishment no 158/8s have gone off for refurbishment. Could be that Porterbrook are nervous the units could be getting replaced, so want to hold off doing a refurbishment, avoiding the issue Angel Trains found themselves in where the 442 fleet was suddenly ditched partway through their overhaul programme in 2006/07.

 

[superalbs]

no 158/8s have gone off for refurbishment.

If you say so!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41696450@N03/30507920742

 

[Wookiee]

90 between Andover and Salisbury Tunnel)

Did any of this section used to be cleared for 125? I'm sure I can remember coming out of Salisbury towards Southampton when I was a kid and seeing a 125 board at Tunnel Junction. When I questioned it, my oppo said it was for HSTs on diversion.

 

[Phil.]

I don't care what trains SWT use as a replacement for the present ones on the Exeters. Just give us one with some legroom! I'm only 6' 2" which is hardly gigantic but I've got more legroom on the number 6 bus from Penzance to my home in Alverton.

 

[The Ham]

I don't care what trains SWT use as a replacement for the present ones on the Exeters. Just give us one with some legroom! I'm only 6' 2" which is hardly gigantic but I've got more legroom on the number 6 bus from Penzance to my home in Alverton.

The way they are likely to do that is by providing thinner seats, which will then result in a load of people complaining.

I find that the Voyagers have better leg room than the Mark 4's for that very reason and so have to be careful in certain parts of this forum!!!