Mg11 gtr help!!!!

[Anuc2402]

Hi there,

I have been given mg11 by gtr on 1st Dec. I was travelling from stevenage to Kingscote.
It was an unfortunate day for me.. I have been very unwell during my journey from home to railway station on bus. I have been feeling sick. My energy drained before I got into train and when I got into train, I looked for vacant seat and sat in first seat I could see. Unfortunately that was first class - I had a standard class ticket. I had explained my situation to the ticket inspector -who then issued penality fare. I agreed to pay.. But then one of the passengers informed me that I could wrote to railway authorities explaining my situation to be genuine health reason. I agreed and accepted to go for that option. I was too unwell and scared that day.. I did not know I was issued mg11. I have a long-term medical conditions and after effects of medicines which take a toll on my health at times.
This is my first time being issued with mg11 or penality fare.

What are my chances of being prosecuted?
What shall I do to make sure that gtr resolves this case out of court?
I'm panicking at the minute knowing I might have criminal record on my name

Please help.

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

Hi there,

I have been given mg11 by gtr on 1st Dec. I was travelling from stevenage to Kingscote.
It was an unfortunate day for me.. I have been very unwell during my journey from home to railway station on bus. I have been feeling sick. My energy drained before I got into train and when I got into train, I looked for vacant seat and sat in first seat I could see. Unfortunately that was first class - I had a standard class ticket. I had explained my situation to the ticket inspector -who then issued penality fare. I agreed to pay.. But then one of the passengers informed me that I could wrote to railway authorities explaining my situation to be genuine health reason. I agreed and accepted to go for that option. I was too unwell and scared that day.. I did not know I was issued mg11. I have a long-term medical conditions and after effects of medicines which take a toll on my health at times.
This is my first time being issued with mg11 or penality fare.

What are my chances of being prosecuted?
What shall I do to make sure that gtr resolves this case out of court?
I'm panicking at the minute knowing I might have criminal record on my name

Please help.

Thank you.

a penalty fare was issued, you agreed to pay...

Then what happened? I'm a bit confused.

Are you saying that you asked for a penalty fare not to be issued and instead you asked for the matter to be investigated?

My advice would be to pay a Penalty Fare and appeal it (though I can't see any grounds for appeal but there is no harm in trying). I'm guessing it's too late for that now.

If you have been reported for prosecution, the company will write to you in due course. They will very possibly be prepared to accept an out of court settlement to avoid a court case, however.

 

[Anuc2402]

a penalty fare was issued, you agreed to pay...

Then what happened? I'm a bit confused.

Are you saying that you asked for a penalty fare not to be issued and instead you asked for the matter to be investigated?

My advice would be to pay a Penalty Fare and appeal it (though I can't see any grounds for appeal but there is no harm in trying). I'm guessing it's too late for that now.

If you have been reported for prosecution, the company will write to you in due course. They will very possibly be prepared to accept an out of court settlement to avoid a court case, however.

Thanks for replying.

I agreed to pay at first.. but before I could pay - one of the passengers, told me that if I'm geniunely unwell, I can write to railway authorities instead of paying penalty.
I know it was very stupid choice. But I chose that option not knowing they could prosecute me.

I was not completely aware of railway laws.

I haven't got any letter to my address yet but I have written a letter to prosecution department explaining my case and attached the letter from my hospital containing my medical history.would this be of any help? To avoid prosecution?

Thanks

 

[najaB]

What are my chances of being prosecuted?
What shall I do to make sure that gtr resolves this case out of court?
I'm panicking at the minute knowing I might have criminal record on my name

If you were sat in a first class seat with a standard ticket then the likelihood of being prosecuted is very low. Even if they did it would be a Byelaw prosecution which won't result in a criminal record.

Your best bet is to wait for GTR to write to you (if they haven't already) and then reply saying what you have said here: the medicine you take for long-term medical condition affects your concentration and ability to stand for long periods and you ended up mistakenly sitting a First Class seat as a result. Offer to pay the difference in fare and a contribution towards their costs and they will more than likely settle out of court.

 

[Anuc2402]

Thanks a ton for quick reply.

I have got the letter from my doctor explaining my condition That day - which I would send along with the details requested by GTR.

 

[Greenback]

I think you received some poor advice. I wouldn't be surprised if claiming to be ill was given frequently as a reason for sitting in first class on a standard class ticket. I doubt that there will have been many occasions when a TOC agreed to waive a PF or refunded monies already paid, and I agree with Yorkie about the chances of a successful appeal if you had paid being pretty low.

I concur with najaB that your objective should be to try and obtain an out of court settlement.

 

[jon0844]

I also wouldn't recommend listening to the advice of other passengers, who presumably aren't aware of the implications of refusing a penalty fare.

The only time I've offered advice was when in declassified first class and a penalty fare was issued to someone else. I actually told the RPI this fact, who proceeded to cancel it.

 

[Anuc2402]

I also wouldn't recommend listening to the advice of other passengers, who presumably aren't aware of the implications of refusing a penalty fare.

The only time I've offered advice was when in declassified first class and a penalty fare was issued to someone else*. I actually told the RPI this fact, who proceeded to cancel it.

Thanks for your reply.

I have learnt my lesson hard way.

i have my doctor letter as below:

 

[Tetchytyke]

That doctors letter implies pre-meditation- "I knew I couldn't stand in standard, I knew standard would be full, so I sat down in first class anyway"- so you might want to be very careful there.

 

[jon0844]

In the future, I'd seek a priority seat or simply ask a passenger (or passengers) if you could sit down, explaining you felt unwell.

I would be amazed if anyone refused to move for you.

 

[Greenback]

I'd be surprised if the doctor's letter led to the charge being waived, if that refers to a financial element such as a Penalty Fare, had you chosen to accept it. You never know, though, it might make it a little bit easier to achieve an out of court settlement.

On the other hand, Arctic Troll could be right. If it were me, I wouldn't send it yet, I;d wait and see what GTR say.

 

[jon0844]

Someone might correct me on this and say it's bad advice, but perhaps the better defence would be to say that someone else on the train suggested you turn down the penalty fare, and ask if it can retrospectively applied. I am not sure it can, but they may at least ask for the equivalent amount of money and then drop the case.

You can say you now realise that you should have accepted it, and got confused because of the input of a third party. Being unwell at the time also meant not having an entirely clear head.

I think that's better than giving a letter from a doctor when, being unwell, still doesn't justify going into first class. Especially if the RPI was to make a statement that suggests there were seats in standard (as there may have been, even if you didn't notice at the time).

 

[AlterEgo]

That doctors letter implies pre-meditation- "I knew I couldn't stand in standard, I knew standard would be full, so I sat down in first class anyway"- so you might want to be very careful there.

Yes, I agree it could be read that way.

The doctor has probably said too much. They are not supposed to "go into bat" for you or plead your case; a simple factual description of your condition would have been enough.

I would not send it yet and wait to see what GTR say.

 

[najaB]

Someone might correct me on this and say it's bad advice, but perhaps the better defence would be to say that someone else on the train suggested you turn down the penalty fare, and ask if it can retrospectively applied. I am not sure it can, but they may at least ask for the equivalent amount of money and then drop the case.

I agree. The letter reads as if you didn't even attempt to find a seat in standard. Much better to focus on the fact that you were going to pay the penalty fare but (possibly due to fatigue/confusion?) you took the advice of the random stranger.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Someone might correct me on this and say it's bad advice, but perhaps the better defence would be to say that someone else on the train suggested you turn down the penalty fare, and ask if it can retrospectively applied. I am not sure it can, but they may at least ask for the equivalent amount of money and then drop the case.

I agree. I think relying too much on the medical evidence, especially with the letter as is, implies pre-meditation. The doctor's letter could very easily be construed as you having no intention of finding a standard class seat.

The doctor's letter may be useful later, but I wouldn't recommend sending that letter as your opening statement.

A better way will be to accept your mistake and accept that you were in the wrong, but explain that you had every intention of paying the Penalty Fare until the stranger interjected, which confused issues because of your health problems and the side effects of the drugs. Ask if GTR will just charge you the equivalent of the Penalty Fare. They might do, or at the very worst you'll keep the settlement down.

 

[bb21]

Were there Standard Class seats available on the train?

 

[Anuc2402]

In the future, I'd seek a priority seat or simply ask a passenger (or passengers) if you could sit down, explaining you felt unwell.

I would be amazed if anyone refused to move for you.

thanks. I would do so from now on.

I'd be surprised if the doctor's letter led to the charge being waived, if that refers to a financial element such as a Penalty Fare, had you chosen to accept it. You never know, though, it might make it a little bit easier to achieve an out of court settlement.

On the other hand, Arctic Troll could be right. If it were me, I wouldn't send it yet, I;d wait and see what GTR say.

I did not expect my doctor to mention something like that on letter- as I requested him to explain my condition that day.

I'd be surprised if the doctor's letter led to the charge being waived, if that refers to a financial element such as a Penalty Fare, had you chosen to accept it. You never know, though, it might make it a little bit easier to achieve an out of court settlement.

On the other hand, Arctic Troll could be right. If it were me, I wouldn't send it yet, I;d wait and see what GTR say.

I'm confused here. I know doctors letter gives too much information.

Were there Standard Class seats available on the train?

Unfortunately, when the ticket inspector came to me - yes there were couple of standard class seats available - which were not visible as vacant from entrance.
I agree I made a mistake. I should have looked for seats in standard class.
Honestly, I did not to avoid first class fare neither wanted to enjoy the luxury of first class. I just wanted to sit at that time as soon as possible as I was unwell and couldn't stand.

 

[yorkie]

...Honestly, I did not to avoid first class fare neither wanted to enjoy the luxury of first class. I just wanted to sit at that time as soon as possible as I was unwell and couldn't stand.

You say ticket inspector was initially going to issue a Penalty Fare, so it sounds like the inspector agreed that, based on the available information at that time, you did not do so deliberately, and therefore was not going to report the matter for investigation and possible prosecution.

The appropriate action on most GTR services, from most stations they serve, for a passenger making this sort of mistake (among others) is to charge a Penalty Fare, unless there is evidence it was a deliberate act or they recognised the person as having done this sort of thing before.

However it sounds like you declined the issuing of the Penalty Fare and the matter is likely to escalate further.

I don't think there is much more we can say, other than you need to wait and see what GTR says or you could attempt to contact them before they get back to you, and you are advised not to let the matter go to court (unless your solicitor is very confidence of winning the case, which seems rather implausible to me) so you may have to agree to settle for whatever sum GTR want to settle (which could be anything from the original amount the Penalty Fare would have been to several hundreds of pounds, and we cannot predict that).

 

[Anuc2402]

You say ticket inspector was initially going to issue a Penalty Fare, so it sounds like the inspector agreed that, based on the available information at that time, you did not do so deliberately, and therefore was not going to report the matter for investigation and possible prosecution.

The appropriate action on most GTR services, from most stations they serve, for a passenger making this sort of mistake (among others) is to charge a Penalty Fare, unless there is evidence it was a deliberate act or they recognised the person as having done this sort of thing before.

However it sounds like you declined the issuing of the Penalty Fare and the matter is likely to escalate further.

I don't think there is much more we can say, other than you need to wait and see what GTR says or you could attempt to contact them before they get back to you, and you are advised not to let the matter go to court (unless your solicitor is very confidence of winning the case, which seems rather implausible to me) so you may have to agree to settle for whatever sum GTR want to settle (which could be anything from the original amount the Penalty Fare would have been to several hundreds of pounds, and we cannot predict that).

I agree that I should have accepted penalty and paid. I regret my decision to change it at last minute - based on some third persons information.

I have already sent a letter to prosecutions department explaining my condition that day and willingness to pay the penalty as well as processing costs.

 

[bb21]

Generally speaking whether a doctor's note will be effective will depend on the nature of the condition described. For example, if a condition regularly impairs one's judgement then it will likely receive more discretion than one simply of a mobility issue.

That said, most train companies are willing to be lenient on a one-off course when such a note is produced confirming a genuine condition which affected one's mobility. Yes, I agree that you made a very bad mistake and there was really no good mitigation than you simply being lazy on the day, but as a one-off, I would expect no worse than an out-of-court settlement being offered. More likely you will either be told to pay the difference in fares, or given a warning and not pursued further, especially on account of the fact that an idiot butted into a matter which is none of his business.

I can't say I guarantee it will be no worse, but I would feel quite confident that it would not go to court, if you supply them with the doctor's note and a good attitude, together with an explanation of what happened with that stranger. I know I would, and I know our lot would be willing to take that approach as these issues are a minefield, and a magistrate may not look very favourably on such a case when presented.

This is a good example why passengers should mind their own business when a dispute arises on train. If any intervention were considered appropriate, have a word with the affected parties afterwards. Plenty of passengers think they know everything, but most of the time they know bugger all. There are some members of the forum who I would exclude from such a description, but most of the general public fit this broad description from the cases I have seen.

 

[najaB]

This is a good example why passengers should mind their own business when a dispute arises on train. If any intervention were considered appropriate, have a word with the affected parties afterwards. Plenty of passengers think they know everything, but most of the time they know bugger all. There are some members of the forum who I would exclude from such a description, but most of the general public fit this broad description from the cases I have seen.

Even though I know a bit about ticketing rules and legislation I would never intervene between a Guard and passenger - if nothing else, the Guard may be less likely to 'let it slide' because they fear it may come back to haunt them in the form of a Tweet/post. I might ask the Guard a question later if there was a way to do it discretely.

 

[bb21]

Even though I know a bit about ticketing rules and legislation I would never intervene between a Guard and passenger - if nothing else, the Guard may be less likely to 'let it slide' because they fear it may come back to haunt them in the form of a Tweet/post. I might ask the Guard a question later if there was a way to do it discretely.

A very important thing for many people to remember is that a bystander often is not in possession of all the relevant facts.

 

[Greenback]

A very important thing for many people to remember is that a bystander often is not in possession of all the relevant facts.

That is indeed a very important fact for us all to remember.

As to this incident, if I've confused you,. Anuc, I'm very sorry. What I meant was that it looks as though the doctor is asking that you be 'let off'. I don't think that is within their remit, certainly not at this stage.

It sounds like a plea form a solicitor or barrister in court to be honest, and I am dubious as to whether it will do you any favours. Your main objective here should be to secure an out of court settlement, in my opinion. what's done is done, and I don't think it will be possible to turn back the clock, so to speak.

 

[jon0844]

Personally, I would have written to explain that being confused by another passenger made you think there was another process to appeal, and you didn't understand the implications. Until the other person had stepped in, you'd accepted a penalty fare and intended to pay it.

You can then accept your mistake, saying you'd felt unwell and admitting you didn't actually look properly for a seat in standard, but this is the first (and only) time you've done it or will do it, having now been made fully aware of the severity.

You might then have been able to get them to accept the value of the penalty fare, or in fact drop the whole thing.

Did the revenue officer make it clear to you the risk of not accepting the PF? Not that this makes a real difference at this stage, but I do wonder in other similar cases whether RPIs have a duty to warn people who might think they can refuse and get the matter dropped by simply writing a letter later (or perhaps hoping that the problem magically goes away).

 

[Greenback]

It would probably be worth a try, Jon, if Anuc hadn't already sent the doctor's letter in. As they seem to have done so, then my feeling is that it's now too late.

 

[Anuc2402]

It would probably be worth a try, Jon, if Anuc hadn't already sent the doctor's letter in. As they seem to have done so, then my feeling is that it's now too late.

I have not sent the doctor's letter yet.

I have not heard anything from prosecutions department yet - they say i might get a letter in new year because of festive period ..

 

[Greenback]

In that case, I would not send the doctor's letter at this time.

 

[Anuc2402]

I recieved notice of intention to prosecute from GTR - today
offence:
Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket

What's the best way forward to request them to deal with this case out of court?
And do they agree to deal this case out of court?
Contacting them by phone - does it make any difference?

I don't want to send them my doctor letter as it will only make things worse.. As suggested by all in the forum.

I spoke to a solicitor - but it's too expensive - £900

Do you suggest using a solicitor?

Please answer.. I'm panicking. I don't want this to impact my work

Thanks

 

[najaB]

Note: Until the mods can do their thread-fu, for those who are posting the OP has received a notice of intent to prosecute.

To the OP, now that you have received their notice of intent you know what legislation they are using - it's the railway Byelaws (Byelaw 19) - which is good news as it is not a recordable offence meaning that even if you were convicted you it wouldn't show on a standard DBS check.

This would be the appropriate time to send your mitigating evidence such as a letter from your doctor confirming your medical condition, and ask for GTR to set aside the prosecution if you pay for the difference in fare and a contribution to their costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I recieved notice of intention to prosecute from GTR - today
offence:
Remain in a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket

As per my previous post - this is a Byelaw offence so doesn't show up on a standard DBS check. So you don't need to worry about getting a criminal record.

What's the best way forward to request them to deal with this case out of court?
And do they agree to deal this case out of court?
Contacting them by phone - does it make any difference?

Others may disagree but I advise that you write rather than call. Firstly because you have more time to choose your words when writing, and secondly because there is a record of all correspondence. The best way is to write to them as I posted above asking them to consider your medical condition as a mitigating factor and offering to pay the difference in fare plus a contribution to their costs in order to set the matter aside.

I don't want to send them my doctor letter as it will only make things worse.. As suggested by all in the forum.

You do want a doctor's letter, just not that doctor's letter. All you want is something confirming the symptoms of your condition/treatment.

I spoke to a solicitor - but it's too expensive - £900

Do you suggest using a solicitor?

For a byelaw offence, I wouldn't but only you can determine your cost/benefit ratio.

Please answer.. I'm panicking. I don't want this to impact my work

As per the above - it's not a recordable offence so I don't imagine it would affect your employment.

 

[Anuc2402]

Thanks.. That will be helpful.
Do you suggest going through solicitor would be better?