Our Bus building Industry- Why hasn't it died away?

[J-2739]

BREL, Rover Group, British Aerospace, Rolls-Royce...

All these has died under Margaret T's philosophy of privatization. However, busmakers Wrightbus, Walter Alexander and Dennis (both later forming into Transbus, then Alexander Dennis) have managed to survive this.

How? And why?

 

[overthewater]

Simple answer Walter Alexander and Dennis created some great buses and companies brought them. Dart, or PS etc

 

[6Gman]

BREL, Rover Group, British Aerospace, Rolls-Royce...

All these has died under Margaret T's philosophy of privatization. However, busmakers Wrightbus, Walter Alexander and Dennis (both later forming into Transbus, then Alexander Dennis) have managed to survive this.

How? And why?

Eh? Bits of BREL survive, following various changes of ownership.

British Aerospace became BAe Systems and are doing very nicely thank you.

Rolls-Royce survives.

Alexander and Dennis survive, but after several hiccups.

Wrightbus were innovative, and grew.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Mrs T or privatisation.

 

[J-2739]

Since when did I say Alexander Dennis or Wrightbus didn't survive? Try reading my post properly, thank you.

The motor part of Rolls-Royce survives as a brand.

I'm on about the old British Aerospace, not BAE.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm on about the old British Aerospace, not BAE.

The old British Aerospace merged with Marconi Electronic Systems to form BAe Systems who are doing very nicely (if not particularly pleasantly).

Where's the failure?

 

[ac6000cw]

BREL, Rover Group, British Aerospace, Rolls-Royce...

All these has died under Margaret T's philosophy of privatization. However, busmakers Wrightbus, Walter Alexander and Dennis (both later forming into Transbus, then Alexander Dennis) have managed to survive this.

How? And why?

It's simple - the companies that had decent products, sales and marketing, and management survived e.g. Roll-Royce & BAe, the ones like British Leyland and it's descendants didn't (in the longer term). My father worked at Longbridge (car factory) for many years through the BMC and BL era, and frankly some of the vehicles that came out of there were awful, both in design terms and manufacturing quality. Despite the staff discounts, he eventually bought a car from another manufacturer because he wanted something that was properly built, reliable and didn't rust away in front of your eyes... Yes, eventually BL was seriously slimmed down and sorted out (at the cost of a considerable amount of taxpayers money), but by then it was too late - they'd blown away their home market credibility and volume sales.

If you want to know how to ruin an industry through complacency and poor management, read the history of the (once world beating) British motorcycle industry as it spiralled into terminal decline in the 1960s and 70s. It was popular at the time to blame it on the Japanese, but honestly it wasn't - they just exploited a market opportunity that BSA/Triumph/Norton handed them on a plate. (The present-day, successful, Triumph Motorcycles Ltd was created from the ground up in the 1980s after buying the rights to the name following the bankruptcy of the final version of the original company).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

BREL, Rover Group, British Aerospace, Rolls-Royce...

All these has died under Margaret T's philosophy of privatization. However, busmakers Wrightbus, Walter Alexander and Dennis (both later forming into Transbus, then Alexander Dennis) have managed to survive this.

How? And why?

Erm... A lot of bus manufacturers have gone. Not least the largest one - the state owned Leyland Bus. In 1986, it had manufacturing sites at Lillyhall and Farrington. It also had Eastern Coach Works in Lowestoft.

In private ownership, you had MCW who were major suppliers - probably about 200 vehicles a year to London and 100+ to West Midlands. Now gone. Northern Counties was also a major body manufacturer, with GMPTE having some sort of stake in them - absorbed by Transbus, they're no more now! Marshall were a bit part player at various times and they've elected to do other things.

Willowbrook and Duple closing up (the latter after going in administration and their nearest rival picking over the bones). The reason Plaxton survives now is that they are the not just the remains of the Scarborough business but also Reebur and NCME.

There were too few new vehicles being built from 1984 until probably 1990/1. There was consolidation in the market as certain firms closed up. There was also diversification into other markets such as making minibus bodies on various van chassis or building for other markets such as Singapore and Hong Kong, or in kit form with Metroriders to the far east and Darts to places like Canada. The other thing was that Dennis just happened to stumble onto perhaps the most pivotal bus design in living memory in the shape of the Dennis Dart.

 

[randyrippley]

Since when did I say Alexander Dennis or Wrightbus didn't survive? Try reading my post properly, thank you.

The motor part of Rolls-Royce survives as a brand.

I'm on about the old British Aerospace, not BAE.

BAE IS British Aerospace, rebranded after assimilating the defence and aerospace interests of GEC.
The motor part of Rolls Royce was a sideshow: the important parts are (and were) aircraft engines, power station generation and heavy duty propulsion. That business is trading nicely, despite the hiccup with the RB211. Admittedly they ran into financial problems, but those were overcome years ago.
Alexander Dennis? Look at the history there. Both Alexander and Dennis have gone through a catalogue of bankruptcies, takeovers, dodgy amalgamations and restructurings. The only reason the current company survives is that the management at Stagecoach realised that if they wanted to carry on buying British buses they had to create their own supply line. So AD was rescued from near-insolvency and is now effectively an in-house supplier to Stagecoach.
Wrights had some struggles over the years, but what saved them was licencing aluminium extrusion technology from Aluisuisse/Lonza (note Swiss technology, not British) enabling them to get an early start in low-floor / easy access bus designs. Of course Wrights always had a history in accessible designs: in the 1970s and 80s the only Wright buses you would see in the UK mainland were specials for disabled schools / community transit and suchlike with wheelchair lifts. They were lucky to have simply purchased the foreign technology at the right time

 

[AndrewP]

I think the OP's original post is very odd - as many of the businesses mentioned are alive and well. To blame it on Thatcher alone is very naïve - not that she is blameless as are countless other politicians.

One of the most interesting is Rover Group where the big question isn't how it went but how it lasted as long and the list of people to blame for that is simply everyone - management, unions, workers and politicians of all colours. But, even if you look at Rover (which went under Labour's watch incidentally) the only factory that went at the end was Longbridge - the others had gone years before as Cowley, Solihull and Swindon (the other main factories are thriving under different ownership).

We still have Leyland Trucks (albeit badged Daf) but the loss of Leyland Bus is a real shame but, after the warranty costs on the trains and the decline in bus orders in the 1990s, there was no chance.

If anyone is interested in finding out more on the British car industry check out www.aronline.co.uk

 

[ChathillMan]

Leaky roofs aside, Optare are a real British success story that we should be proud of. Innovative products over the years and the Optare Delta is still one of my favourite vehicles to this day.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the OP's original post is very odd - as many of the businesses mentioned are alive and well. To blame it on Thatcher alone is very naïve - not that she is blameless as are countless other politicians.

One of the most interesting is Rover Group where the big question isn't how it went but how it lasted as long and the list of people to blame for that is simply everyone - management, unions, workers and politicians of all colours. But, even if you look at Rover (which went under Labour's watch incidentally) the only factory that went at the end was Longbridge - the others had gone years before as Cowley, Solihull and Swindon (the other main factories are thriving under different ownership).

We still have Leyland Trucks (albeit badged Daf) but the loss of Leyland Bus is a real shame but, after the warranty costs on the trains and the decline in bus orders in the 1990s, there was no chance.

If anyone is interested in finding out more on the British car industry check out www.aronline.co.uk

Was Mrs Thatcher really responsible for many of those 'failures' anyway ? - seems far more like a range of other issues (and other people).

 

[edwin_m]

Is this something to do with British buses being designed for more seating and less standing so fewer people in total, therefore can be built lighter and cheaper than European ones? I think this, together with the preponderance of double deckers, means that standard European products aren't widely used in Britain, and the British manufacturers can survive in that niche.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is this something to do with British buses being designed for more seating and less standing so fewer people in total, therefore can be built lighter and cheaper than European ones? I think this, together with the preponderance of double deckers, means that standard European products aren't widely used in Britain, and the British manufacturers can survive in that niche.

The decker angle is certainly one, and remember that the UK produces deckers for the Singapore and Hong Kong markets.

However, in respect of single deckers, the European ones tend to be of a more heavyweight design (body as well as chassis). I know that will get the regular Europhile's tumescent with thoughts of multi doors, air con and double glazing, and that's fine in a regulated environment where the financial realities are somewhat skewed.

In the UK, we have a deregulated environment, and so fuel economy becomes a much more pressing issue. Hence, a lighter weight vehicle attuned to that UK reality is naturally more attractive to operators.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Leaky roofs aside, Optare are a real British success story that we should be proud of. Innovative products over the years and the Optare Delta is still one of my favourite vehicles to this day.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Optare usually produce a very good aesthetic design but it takes another iteration for the quality and snags to be sorted out. The Excel is the best example but see also the Vecta

However, they did identify the market with the Solo in advance of others! And yes, agree on the Delta; I remember travelling on Go Ahead Northern's Deltas and Lynxes - the Lynx felt like an updated National, the Delta was something much more assured!

 

[mbonwick]

One of the most interesting is Rover Group where the big question isn't how it went but how it lasted as long and the list of people to blame for that is simply everyone - management, unions, workers and politicians of all colours. But, even if you look at Rover (which went under Labour's watch incidentally) the only factory that went at the end was Longbridge - the others had gone years before as Cowley, Solihull and Swindon (the other main factories are thriving under different ownership).

Rover admittedly struggled during the 90s, but was actually returning to good health when BMW decided to sell up, and then extract their revenge with unfavourable licencing terms (BMW having retained the rights to the Rover name - now with Tata via Ford's ownership of JLR)

 

[Phil.]

Was Mrs Thatcher really responsible for many of those 'failures' anyway ? - seems far more like a range of other issues (and other people).

Didn't you know?
Anything and everything that went wrong and was wrong in the 1980s and 1990s was Mrs. Thatcher's fault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leaky roofs aside, Optare are a real British success story that we should be proud of. Innovative products over the years and the Optare Delta is still one of my favourite vehicles to this day.

Now Indian-owned, of course - by Ashok Leyland.

What goes around...

(Shame we have not yet seen Leyland branding return!)

 

[ac6000cw]

Growing up in the 1960s/70s, I remember bus fleet supply being quite parochial with the bigger operators - pretty much everything Midland Red ran was built by them (and Wolverhampton ran Guys), London was a sea of AEC, the West Country seemed well supplied with Bristols and the North West majored on Leylands.

Did this (and the separation into chassis suppliers and body builders) slow down the natural coalescence of small companies into larger, integrated, production line suppliers which might have survived better when the storms of operator nationalisation and then privatisation swept through the industry?

(Leyland National was a state-created integrated builder rather than coming from natural commercial evolution).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Growing up in the 1960s/70s, I remember bus fleet supply being quite parochial with the bigger operators - pretty much everything Midland Red ran was built by them (and Wolverhampton ran Guys), London was a sea of AEC, the West Country seemed well supplied with Bristols and the North West majored on Leylands.

Did this (and the separation into chassis suppliers and body builders) slow down the natural coalescence of small companies into larger, integrated, production line suppliers which might have survived better when the storms of operator nationalisation and then privatisation swept through the industry?

(Leyland National was a state-created integrated builder rather than coming from natural commercial evolution).

The supporting of local industry was certainly a common factor. However, there were also instances of "vertical integration" whereby certain manufacturers were linked historically with operators having been one and the same business at various times - see BCV/BOC, Alexanders, BMMO.

A slight note - Bristol Commercial Vehicles and Bristol Omnibus were indeed hewn from the same origin. However, by the 1960s/1970s, BOC in common with every Tilling/BTC subsidiary was beholden to BCV with ECW bodies.

 

[A0]

Since when did I say Alexander Dennis or Wrightbus didn't survive? Try reading my post properly, thank you.

The motor part of Rolls-Royce survives as a brand.

I'm on about the old British Aerospace, not BAE.

The main part of Rolls Royce is actually doing OK - take a look at the various 747s and 787s arriving at Heathrow on a daily basis - a high proportion have RR engines and several airlines use RR engines as their preferred option over GE and Pratt and Whitney.

 

[J-2739]

I think the OP's original post is very odd - as many of the businesses mentioned are alive and well. To blame it on Thatcher alone is very naïve - not that she is blameless as are countless other politicians.

Who else do you have in mind then?

I said her only. No mention of anyone else. I don't see why you have an issue with that, since it was her who instigated this in the first place.

But any corrections welcome!

 

[daikilo]

Since when did I say Alexander Dennis or Wrightbus didn't survive? Try reading my post properly, thank you.

The motor part of Rolls-Royce survives as a brand.

I'm on about the old British Aerospace, not BAE.

re what you call "the old British Aerospace", that name was anyway the result of mergers (BAC + HS + Scottish Aviation) in 1977. A large chunk eventually became Airbus UK PLC after Airbus changed from a GIE to EADS in 1999 then bought out the BAeS share.

At one point "the old BAe" did own Rover as a result of government intervention (under Mrs Thatcher) to privatise the then BL.

 

[SWTH]

Who else do you have in mind then?

I said her only. No mention of anyone else. I don't see why you have an issue with that, since it was her who instigated this in the first place.

But any corrections welcome!

The corrections are already in this thread. However your initial question is rather flawed because of its inaccuracies. For example, the Rolls-Royce group are doing well, being a FTSE-100 listed company, employing over 50,000 people around the world and being a leader in aerospace and defence technology.

I would suggest you research your history a little better before posing wildly inaccurate statements.

 

[J-2739]

Ok, whatever.

 

[Deerfold]

Ok, you're quite right.

Fixed that for you.

Alternatively, do point out anything that's wrong with the corrections about the states of the various companies that have been made.

 

[Robertj21a]

Fixed that for you.

Alternatively, do point out anything that's wrong with the corrections about the states of the various companies that have been made.

Good correction !

:roll:

 

[J-2739]

I said 'Ok, whatever.'. Don't see why you have such an issue with that.

 

[Deerfold]

I said 'Ok, whatever.'. Don't see why you have such an issue with that.

Because it sounds like you're sulking and saying you're still right but are unwilling to argue a case.

This might not be what you mean, but it's the impression I'm getting.

 

[J-2739]

Because it sounds like you're sulking and saying you're still right but are unwilling to argue a case.

This might not be what you mean, but it's the impression I'm getting.

Ok, you got me!

(Kinda embarrassed to admit, but I sourced these 'privatised' companies from Wiki. Sorry...)

 

[Deerfold]

Sorry...)

No worries.