Monday morning joy on GN (19/12)

[crazystripe]

Southbound services from PBO to KX a mess this morning. Short formations and delays. All attributable to "waiting for a train crew member". I'm assuming this is mostly "driver didn't show up"...

It made me wonder, what repercussions are there for staff who are late for their shifts? Do they have a financial penalty or disciplinary procedures?

 

[Failed Unit]

Southbound services from PBO to KX a mess this morning. Short formations and delays. All attributable to "waiting for a train crew member". I'm assuming this is mostly "driver didn't show up"...

It made me wonder, what repercussions are there for staff who are late for their shifts? Do they have a financial penalty or disciplinary procedures?

I think there is more than meets the eye to this. Too many delays / cancellations this morning because of driver issues. I think GTR are not telling the whole truth.

At one point this morning 3 consecutive northbound services were cancelled, leaving a long gap at Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth.

0704, 0734 and 0804.

The 0734 is running to Hitchin now. Assuming using the ECS that will form the 0834 Letchworth - Kings Cross service.

 

[TEW]

Southbound services from PBO to KX a mess this morning. Short formations and delays. All attributable to "waiting for a train crew member". I'm assuming this is mostly "driver didn't show up"...

It made me wonder, what repercussions are there for staff who are late for their shifts? Do they have a financial penalty or disciplinary procedures?

Waiting for a train crew member does not necessarily mean the driver didn't show up. Could be that no driver was rostered to work the duty in the first place, or they finished late yesterday and was still having their 12 hours rest period. Covers a large variety of reasons.

 

[HH]

Waiting for a train crew member does not necessarily mean the driver didn't show up. Could be that no driver was rostered to work the duty in the first place, or they finished late yesterday and was still having their 12 hours rest period. Covers a large variety of reasons.

No driver rostered? I don't think even GTR are that incompetent. Nor is a late finish yesterday a likely cause - it would already be known about and should therefore be fixed. It is more likely a simple case of short term sickness - there's genuinely a lot of it about at the moment. OFC GTR could be more affected than other operators, given that staff may be less inclined to put themselves out to help.

 

[KTHV]

No driver rostered? I don't think even GTR are that incompetent. Nor is a late finish yesterday a likely cause - it would already be known about and should therefore be fixed. It is more likely a simple case of short term sickness - there's genuinely a lot of it about at the moment. OFC GTR could be more affected than other operators, given that staff may be less inclined to put themselves out to help.

You would have thought so...

 

[Hophead]

Perhaps the driver was unable to get to work due to a high number of train cancellations?

 

[bramling]

Southbound services from PBO to KX a mess this morning. Short formations and delays. All attributable to "waiting for a train crew member". I'm assuming this is mostly "driver didn't show up"...

It made me wonder, what repercussions are there for staff who are late for their shifts? Do they have a financial penalty or disciplinary procedures?

Of course there would be a procedure if a driver turned up late. Where I am they would be interviewed, an 'item' recorded, and if a certain number of 'items' are accrued in a defined period of time then the disciplinary procedure would be triggered.

However, I don't think one can necessarily jump to the conclusion that it's driver late for work. There are numerous other possibilities. For example, you could have a situation where the rostered driver is unavailable (for whatever reason), and a spare is being used, but the spare's timings don't match up with what is required - for example if the spare is having to come from a depot far away and there isn't time for him to get to where he needs to be in time for the required time. Obviously there will then be a delay of some sort.

 

[TEW]

No driver rostered? I don't think even GTR are that incompetent. Nor is a late finish yesterday a likely cause - it would already be known about and should therefore be fixed. It is more likely a simple case of short term sickness - there's genuinely a lot of it about at the moment. OFC GTR could be more affected than other operators, given that staff may be less inclined to put themselves out to help.

Given the widely reported driver shortages across GTR services I don't think it's that far fetched that something other than the driver simply not showing up is to blame.

 

[bramling]

Given the widely reported driver shortages across GTR services I don't think it's that far fetched that something other than the driver simply not showing up is to blame.

With the company already being notoriously short of drivers, training programmes in place for new trains, Christmas being a time where sickness and leave tends to go up and willingness to work overtime goes down, and a company which seems to have upset its workforce, it's a safe bet the train crew managers will be having a busy week!

 

[HH]

Given the widely reported driver shortages across GTR services I don't think it's that far fetched that something other than the driver simply not showing up is to blame.

Maybe, but I think we can probably discount "Driver kidnapped by Aliens" and "Driver out to lunch with Charles Horton".

 

[TEW]

The second of those does seem rather unlikely, but it can't be long until GTR use alien abduction as an excuse, they must have exhausted nearly everything else now!

 

[FordFocus]

There is a driver shortage across GTR that's still not been addressed because of a lack of instructors for trainees and a training backlog on new traction causing issues.

As for the original reason to which I have no knowledge of, I find the common reason is last minute sickness with no available cover, driver stuck in traffic getting to work or it's actually a rostering error. Last week a train was sat in a platform awaiting a relief driver. Driver nowhere to be seen, hadn't booked on. Turned out he was in the Canary Islands and rosters accidentally changed his annual leave on the computer!

I believe the overtime ban is for Southern drivers. We're into the run up for Christmas. I doubt many drivers will want the extra stress of work and need the days off for shopping.

 

[Loop & Link]

No driver rostered? I don't think even GTR are that incompetent. Nor is a late finish yesterday a likely cause - it would already be known about and should therefore be fixed. It is more likely a simple case of short term sickness - there's genuinely a lot of it about at the moment. OFC GTR could be more affected than other operators, given that staff may be less inclined to put themselves out to help.

Don't see what's so surprising about no driver being rostered. Rostering errors are more common than a "driver just not turning up". I've known Drivers rostered to a job that are on Annual Leave or having put "Not Available" for Rest Days and are still marked to a job. Or a Driver marked to a job by rosters and doesn't sign the road or the traction.

 

[bramling]

Don't see what's so surprising about no driver being rostered. Rostering errors are more common than a "driver just not turning up". I've known Drivers rostered to a job that are on Annual Leave or having put "Not Available" for Rest Days and are still marked to a job. Or a Driver marked to a job by rosters and doesn't sign the road or the traction.

Where I am it's probably the most common error to have a driver down for a duty when they're actually on annual leave. Coincidence or otherwise, always seems to be certain individuals too.

 

[HH]

Rostering errors can happen, of course, such as a driver was rostered, but was on AL. That's not the same as no driver being rostered, which would indicate that a diagram had been omitted from the roster.

 

[87015]

Rostering errors can happen, of course, such as a driver was rostered, but was on AL. That's not the same as no driver being rostered, which would indicate that a diagram had been omitted from the roster.

Depends what you want to describe "uncovered", "open" or whatever the local phrase is as being on the roster...

 

[HH]

Depends what you want to describe "uncovered", "open" or whatever the local phrase is as being on the roster...

I was commenting on the phrase, "no driver was rostered to work the duty in the first place". That seems quite clear to me, but YMMV.

 

[Loop & Link]

I was commenting on the phrase, "no driver was rostered to work the duty in the first place". That seems quite clear to me, but YMMV.

It can happen though. Especially when the Dockets are STP'd, there's a diagram that exists but no driver marked up to it in error because it's STP'd, rather than the job being 'uncovered' due to shortages, and you can end up with various jobs 'cut and pasted' in trying to run the train service.

 

[SJN]

I don't see that its hard to believe. We often have 'open' turns on our rosters. If the spares can cover them they do. If not then the train gets cancelled or terminated early.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Driver could have been late for PNBs due to a late arrival on an incoming train they've worked. Could be late to work (as happens to people in any other job). Could have been incorrectly booked a rest day when they're not available. Could be unable to work due to medication which leaves them unable to perform safety critical duties. Could be ill, in hospital, suffered a bereavement, in hospital with a sick relative. They could even be off sick due to having an incident at work (fatality). Could have had their license taken away from them due to an operational incident. There could have been a rostering error....

 

[notverydeep]

As a graph attached to my post to the class 387s to GN thread shows:http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2815588&postcount=797 the four weeks to the 10th December have been the worst since 2010, by a mile for GN train services. The PPM for this period was a mere 65.1%. Back in 2010 / 2011, Great Northern's PPM performance was up there with the best TOCs and the right time performance was better than this. The graph shows a fairly continuous performance decline since 2013 (before GTR took over). Have we reached the bottom?

 

[bramling]

As a graph attached to my post to the class 387s to GN thread shows:http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2815588&postcount=797 the four weeks to the 10th December have been the worst since 2010, by a mile for GN train services. The PPM for this period was a mere 65.1%. Back in 2010 / 2011, Great Northern's PPM performance was up there with the best TOCs and the right time performance was better than this. The graph shows a fairly continuous performance decline since 2013 (before GTR took over). Have we reached the bottom?

No, I predict it will be worse when through running onto Thameslink starts.

What GN is seeing is basically the transition to Thameslink standards of performance. Which is one reason why many people are sceptical about the whole concept of mixing Thameslink with GN.

 

[notverydeep]

No, I predict it will be worse when through running onto Thameslink starts.

What GN is seeing is basically the transition to Thameslink standards of performance. Which is one reason why many people are sceptical about the whole concept of mixing Thameslink with GN.

I started out believing that Thameslink performance was always much worse than GN and was quite surprised to see that back in 2010/2011, even Thameslink performance was routinely getting PPM scores better than 90%, except perhaps around leaf fall season.

Both routes have worsened very considerably since. GN's decline had reached the point where my perception was that Thameslink performance was now better than GN! Although this was true of the 4 weeks to 15 October 2016, the actual data shows that period to be the exception. Thameslink performance was a fair bit worse even than GN's dire performance for the 4 weeks to 10 December, with a PPM score of 60.1%.

I only use the Thameslink core and this probably explains my perception of better performance than the data shows, as I tend to be much less disrupted by the odd delay or cancellation than a passenger needing a specific Thameslink train.

 

[jon0844]

No, I predict it will be worse when through running onto Thameslink starts.

What GN is seeing is basically the transition to Thameslink standards of performance. Which is one reason why many people are sceptical about the whole concept of mixing Thameslink with GN.

I think I've sussed what GTR and the DfT is doing here.

When things go tits up in 2018/2019, stats from 2016 and 2017 will be presented to show that it hasn't got worse at all. Get the bad figures in early!

 

[jon0844]

I started out believing that Thameslink performance was always much worse than GN and was quite surprised to see that back in 2010/2011, even Thameslink performance was routinely getting PPM scores better than 90%, except perhaps around leaf fall season.

I'll still use Thameslink at the weekend more often than GN these days, as there are more trains overall - so less chance of major problems.

When I travel in the core, you're right that it doesn't matter if all trains are 90 minutes late - as long as one turns up in a few minutes!

 

[BestWestern]

I think there is more than meets the eye to this. Too many delays / cancellations this morning because of driver issues. I think GTR are not telling the whole truth.

Whaaaaat?!

You're suggesting that GTR might be a dishonest, untrustworthy shoddy outfit, who tell lies as a matter of routine?! No way.

Conductor sickness is to blame, surely...

 

[bramling]

Whaaaaat?!

You're suggesting that GTR might be a dishonest, untrustworthy shoddy outfit, who tell lies as a matter of routine?! No way.

Conductor sickness is to blame, surely...

Between them, I'm not sure GTR/DfT have the competence to manage such a conspiracy. On the railway, never look for a conspiracy theory when there's an incompetence theory available!

 

[bramling]

When I travel in the core, you're right that it doesn't matter if all trains are 90 minutes late - as long as one turns up in a few minutes!

That's all well and good if you're doing a journey like City to St. Pancras.

It's just about okay on today's Thameslink as most of the services tend to be 4tph, at least north of the river.

If you want to get to somewhere which will have a half-hourly service, as many of the proposed GN Thameslink services will be, performance will be very important. The reality, unfortunately, will be a lot of waiting around on core platforms, doubtlessly accompanied by much cursing of Thameslink. Plus, of course, once one does finally get on a train, the dreaded announcement "due to late running this train is going to run fast to XXX".

 

[jon0844]

That was what I meant. Today I am going to King's Cross then St Pancras to Blackfriars and won't care what train rocks up, and how late it might be.

I should have clarified that I meant a journey exclusively within the core, which is of course very popular and the reason we have designed everything around this section that operates more like a LU service.

Edit: almost every train I've seen so far this morning has been a 387! The one we're on now, plus three northbound that either passed or one that parked up at WGC.