Unknown transaction on my journey history

[euanovsky]

I commute from Canning Town to Potters Bar every day. I have a zone 2-4 annual season ticket on my oyster card and I buy a daily extension paper return ticket between zone 4 and Potters Bar.

My journey looks like this:

Touch in at Canning Town and travel to Stratford via Jubilee Line to avoid zone 1
Touch in at the pink reader at Stratford and take the overground to Highbury and Islington
Take the Victoria line for one stop to Finsbury Park
Touch in again at Finsbury Park to get on the National Rail train (Note I don't touch out here as there's no gate to get out of the tube - but in theory I could touch out at Finsbury Park tube and touch in at Finsbury Park National Rail again - I don't think it matters - please correct me if I am wrong)
Then I don't touch out again as Potters Bar is outside TFL fare zone so I use my extension ticket to get out.

My return journey is the same (but in reverse). On most days I don't have any issues with this.

However the problem arises when I travel into Central London after work from Potters Bar. My journey looks like this:

Use the extension ticket to get in PB.
Touch out at Finsbury Park National Rail using my oyster card (occasionally this step is missed if the gates are open but that does not have any effect on the problem which I'm describing).
Touch in at Finsbury Park Underground
Touch out at a zone 1 stop

I get charged the correct fare between Finsbury Park to the zone 1 stop. What's odd is that in addition to the correct fare charged, I get charged an "unknown transaction" of £2.40 on my oyster card. I don't exactly know what it is but every time when I phoned up tfl they would issue me a refund.

I spoke with various people from TFL - all have different versions as to why it happens and I have been given contradictory advice (e.g. that i need to touch out from underground at Finsbury Park, that I should touch the yellow reader in Stratford [which is not right?!] etc). Anyway none of this resolves the issue.

So I am wondering if you know why this happens and how can I avoid this "unknown transaction" charge in future? TFL is happy to refund me but I just don't want to hassle of calling them every time it happens!

Thanks a lot.

 

[westcoaster]

Is it because you touch in at Finsbury pk NR and then do not touch out so you are charged. Do you not tap out in the subway as you exit the tube.

 

[yorkie]

Can you upload a screenshot of your journey history please?

 

[mattdickinson]

I commute from Canning Town to Potters Bar every day. I have a zone 2-4 annual season ticket on my oyster card and I buy a daily extension paper return ticket between zone 4 and Potters Bar.

My journey looks like this:

Touch in at Canning Town and travel to Stratford via Jubilee Line to avoid zone 1
Touch in at the pink reader at Stratford and take the overground to Highbury and Islington
Take the Victoria line for one stop to Finsbury Park
Touch in again at Finsbury Park to get on the National Rail train (Note I don't touch out here as there's no gate to get out of the tube - but in theory I could touch out at Finsbury Park tube and touch in at Finsbury Park National Rail again - I don't think it matters - please correct me if I am wrong)
Then I don't touch out again as Potters Bar is outside TFL fare zone so I use my extension ticket to get out.

My return journey is the same (but in reverse). On most days I don't have any issues with this.

However the problem arises when I travel into Central London after work from Potters Bar. My journey looks like this:

Use the extension ticket to get in PB.
Touch out at Finsbury Park National Rail using my oyster card (occasionally this step is missed if the gates are open but that does not have any effect on the problem which I'm describing).
Touch in at Finsbury Park Underground
Touch out at a zone 1 stop

I get charged the correct fare between Finsbury Park to the zone 1 stop. What's odd is that in addition to the correct fare charged, I get charged an "unknown transaction" of £2.40 on my oyster card. I don't exactly know what it is but every time when I phoned up tfl they would issue me a refund.

I spoke with various people from TFL - all have different versions as to why it happens and I have been given contradictory advice (e.g. that i need to touch out from underground at Finsbury Park, that I should touch the yellow reader in Stratford [which is not right?!] etc). Anyway none of this resolves the issue.

So I am wondering if you know why this happens and how can I avoid this "unknown transaction" charge in future? TFL is happy to refund me but I just don't want to hassle of calling them every time it happens!

Thanks a lot.

According to the TFL single fare finder you need to touch pink readers at both Stratford and Highbury & Islington to prove that travel was not via Zone 1

 

[MikeWh]

According to the TFL single fare finder you need to touch pink readers at both Stratford and Highbury & Islington to prove that travel was not via Zone 1

For a journey from Potters Bar to zone 1 the touches at Stratford and Highbury are irrelevant. I would also like to see a copy of journey history from a day when it has gone wrong. There are some interesting settings at Finsbury Park to cope with people not touching on both sides of the OSI.

 

[euanovsky]

I've attached three journeys - both 28 and 30 November have an unknown transaction. 23 November is what it should be.

For 30 November I can't remember why I did not touch out at Canning Town at the end of the day - either the gates were open or I went to East India to go to a shop and forgot to touch out (East India has no gates)

 

[euanovsky]

For a journey from Potters Bar to zone 1 the touches at Stratford and Highbury are irrelevant. I would also like to see a copy of journey history from a day when it has gone wrong. There are some interesting settings at Finsbury Park to cope with people not touching on both sides of the OSI.

Sorry what's OSI?

 

[clagmonster]

Sorry what's OSI?

Out of station interchange - essentially when you tap on one gateline to get out and another to get in and the two journeys are linked to make one.

 

[MikeWh]

I've attached three journeys - both 28 and 30 November have an unknown transaction. 23 November is what it should be.

For 30 November I can't remember why I did not touch out at Canning Town at the end of the day - either the gates were open or I went to East India to go to a shop and forgot to touch out (East India has no gates)

Can you confirm where you went to in zone 1? The entries surrounding the £2.40 charges don't make a lot of sense at the moment.

On the journey history, lines with the large minus sign "-" at the end are the summary lines which list the total charge for the journey. Other lines below indicate where the actual charges and adjustments took place making up that journey. You have only been charged £2.40 for each day. Where a touch is described as on a pink validator at Finsbury Park it means that you've touched an entry gate while already in the system. This is nothing to worry about.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For a journey from Potters Bar to zone 1 the touches at Stratford and Highbury are irrelevant.

The OP only holds Z2-4 Travelcard on his Oyster, so if the system doesn't know they've avoided zone 1 then it will charge them the extension fare. The £2.40 is the fare from zone 2 to zone 1.

I'm guessing it is coming up as "unknown transaction" because the journeys are auto-completing because the OP isn't touching in/out in the zones.

 

[euanovsky]

Can you confirm where you went to in zone 1? The entries surrounding the £2.40 charges don't make a lot of sense at the moment.

That's a good point - I don't think I went to zone 1 on 28 or 30 November and I can't exactly remember why there were no touch out in the journey history. As to why there is no touch in on the pink reader at Stratford that's because a colleague (who commute via a similar route) gave me a piece of advice of not touching in at Finsbury Park on the way back. This way I won't need to touch in at the pink reader at Stratford which tends to get overcrowded. I won't be fare dodging as I had a valid ticket for the route (even though I did not validate my ticket). Granted I think the correct way to do it is to touch in at Finsbury Park, touch the pink reader at Stratford and touch out at Canning Town.

However even if I follow the above procedure this still does not solve the £2.40 unknown transaction issue. Most of the times, regardless of whether I follow the correct procedure or not on my way back this £2.40 does not appear.

I have attached another journey I made on 9 December. This time I was charged £2.40 again and I went to zone 1.

So it seems to be that it doesn't matter whether I go to zone 1, and whether I have or have not touched in at Finsbury Park on the way back, this £2.40 still keeps on appearing at random interval.

Any ideas?

On the journey history, lines with the large minus sign "-" at the end are the summary lines which list the total charge for the journey. Other lines below indicate where the actual charges and adjustments took place making up that journey. You have only been charged £2.40 for each day. Where a touch is described as on a pink validator at Finsbury Park it means that you've touched an entry gate while already in the system. This is nothing to worry about.

Thanks - what's the difference between a large "-" and "+" sign at the end?

 

[euanovsky]

The OP only holds Z2-4 Travelcard on his Oyster, so if the system doesn't know they've avoided zone 1 then it will charge them the extension fare. The £2.40 is the fare from zone 2 to zone 1.

I'm guessing it is coming up as "unknown transaction" because the journeys are auto-completing because the OP isn't touching in/out in the zones.

That's why I am confused. I thought the zone 1 fare is £1.60 since I have the gold card discount loaded on my oyster card. The £2.40 is standard zone 1 price?

 

[euanovsky]

According to the TFL single fare finder you need to touch pink readers at both Stratford and Highbury & Islington to prove that travel was not via Zone 1

I understand from the single fare finder (it's a good tool I didn't know it existed and that it gave you alternative route!) I have to touch the pink reader at both Stratford and H&I whereas I have been touching at just Stratford but still get charged the not-via-zone-1 fare.

I didn't know I had to touch the pink reader also at H&I as I believe by touching the pink reader at Stratford the most straightforward route to Finsbury Park is then via H&I by the overground. TFL seems to agree with this as they listed Stratford as the stop that you have to touch the pink reader if you want to avoid zone 1 regardless which alternative non-zone-1 route you take.

What I wanted to say is that the action of touching the pink reader at Stratford should prove beyond reasonable doubt that I am avoiding zone 1, whereas by touching the pink reader at H&I (and say not touching the pink reader at Stratford) does not prove beyond reasonable doubt that I am avoiding zone 1 (for example I can travel by overground via Canada Water). So by touching the pink reader at Stratford the act of touching the pink reader at H&I becomes redundant.

(I understand I am probably arguing against the system here - I am just trying to say what is logical)

 

[MikeWh]

Most of the times, regardless of whether I follow the correct procedure or not on my way back this £2.40 does not appear.

I have attached another journey I made on 9 December. This time I was charged £2.40 again and I went to zone 1.

So it seems to be that it doesn't matter whether I go to zone 1, and whether I have or have not touched in at Finsbury Park on the way back, this £2.40 still keeps on appearing at random interval.

Any ideas?

Do you have an example of journey history where you weren't charged the £2.40?

Thanks - what's the difference between a large "-" and "+" sign at the end?

The large plus sign means that there are detail lines available but they haven't been expanded out.

That's why I am confused. I thought the zone 1 fare is £1.60 since I have the gold card discount loaded on my oyster card. The £2.40 is standard zone 1 price?

The gold card discount only discounts off-peak fares. Between 1600-1900 you are charged peak fares.

I understand from the single fare finder (it's a good tool I didn't know it existed and that it gave you alternative route!) I have to touch the pink reader at both Stratford and H&I whereas I have been touching at just Stratford but still get charged the not-via-zone-1 fare.

I didn't know I had to touch the pink reader also at H&I as I believe by touching the pink reader at Stratford the most straightforward route to Finsbury Park is then via H&I by the overground. TFL seems to agree with this as they listed Stratford as the stop that you have to touch the pink reader if you want to avoid zone 1 regardless which alternative non-zone-1 route you take.

What I wanted to say is that the action of touching the pink reader at Stratford should prove beyond reasonable doubt that I am avoiding zone 1, whereas by touching the pink reader at H&I (and say not touching the pink reader at Stratford) does not prove beyond reasonable doubt that I am avoiding zone 1 (for example I can travel by overground via Canada Water). So by touching the pink reader at Stratford the act of touching the pink reader at H&I becomes redundant.

(I understand I am probably arguing against the system here - I am just trying to say what is logical)

You may well be arguing against the system, and the system is fighting back. My advice would be to touch everywhere that the SFF says, and also to touch on both NR gates and LU validators at Finsbury Park. If you don't need to touch out at the NR gates then you don't need to touch in at the LU station either. If you have not touched at all at Finsbury Park then there is no need to touch either pink validator at H&I or Stratford. On the way to work you won't know what the situation at Finsbury Park is so you ought to touch everywhere (Stratford, H&I, FP-LU and FP-NR).

If you can provide an example history when you weren't charged the £2.40 I may be able to refine this advice.

 

[euanovsky]

Do you have an example of journey history where you weren't charged the £2.40?

Many thanks for your help. I've attached three such examples. One is my normal route i.e. from Canning Town to Potters Bar and back and the other one is when I travel into zone 1. Incidentally I had taken buses at lunch time in mid day. I thought that might be the reason why there was no unknown transactions on these two days. My third journey history at 16 December did not have a bus journey in the middle of the day and there is no unknown transaction.

The gold card discount only discounts off-peak fares. Between 1600-1900 you are charged peak fares.

I thought that only applies if your journey start from a zone 1 station? Say if I touch in at Finsbury park at 1800 and travel to oxford circus I will only be charged £1.60 and not £2.40?

 

[MikeWh]

Many thanks for your help. I've attached three such examples. One is my normal route i.e. from Canning Town to Potters Bar and back and the other one is when I travel into zone 1. Incidentally I had taken buses at lunch time in mid day. I thought that might be the reason why there was no unknown transactions on these two days. My third journey history at 16 December did not have a bus journey in the middle of the day and there is no unknown transaction.

On each of those days you have touched out at Stratford using a yellow validator, perhaps the one in the Jubilee line concourse? That's got another unusual setting (continuation exit) in that it doesn't end a journey unless you don't go anywhere else. You do carry on though, touching in at Finsbury Park which it treats as a pink reader, then it describes the journey as just Canning Town to Stratford. You seem to be encountering just about every odd feature on your journey. Once we get to the bottom of the issues I'd like to feature the story on my website, if possible.

I thought that only applies if your journey start from a zone 1 station? Say if I touch in at Finsbury park at 1800 and travel to oxford circus I will only be charged £1.60 and not £2.40?

Yes, it's off peak if you start in zone 2 or greater and end in zone 1, but peak for anything else. Your unusual charge is treated as ending in zone 2 as it only has one end to it.

 

[euanovsky]

On each of those days you have touched out at Stratford using a yellow validator, perhaps the one in the Jubilee line concourse? That's got another unusual setting (continuation exit) in that it doesn't end a journey unless you don't go anywhere else. You do carry on though, touching in at Finsbury Park which it treats as a pink reader, then it describes the journey as just Canning Town to Stratford. You seem to be encountering just about every odd feature on your journey.

Interesting - I have not noticed. Only very recently I have tried to start touching the yellow reader rather than the pink reader in Stratford. Reason being I was talking to a colleague who makes a similar journey every day to work and she advised me that if I touch the yellow reader it should stop the problem (and that I will still be cover for the journey between Stratford and Finsbury Park as I have a zone 2-4 season ticket).

I spoke to a few TFL people on the phone and they all advised that I should be touching the pink reader and not the yellow reader at Stratford.

Plus my attachment "tube2.png" does not have the unknown charges even though I touched in the pink reader that day. Having said that I did not go via zone 1 that day...

So I am really confused.

To be honest touching the yellow reader is rather an inconvenience for me as it is in the concourse somewhere and I have to do a (very very slight) detour to touch in. I normally have very little in morning for the interchange (left home too late most of the time!) so I have to run between the underground and the overground and will have no time to touch the yellow reader. I will still touch the pink reader though (plus force of habit still makes me touch the pink reader when I am not consciously thinking otherwise)

I have only started using the yellow reader at Stratford probably from mid November onwards on a few occasions when I remembered to do that. And I don't travel to zone 1 that often after work so I don't really have a large enough sample size to determine if this will solve the issue but so far it seems to suggest it does.

Once we get to the bottom of the issues I'd like to feature the story on my website, if possible.

Not a problem just anonymise me please!

 

[MikeWh]

Interesting - I have not noticed. Only very recently I have tried to start touching the yellow reader rather than the pink reader in Stratford. Reason being I was talking to a colleague who makes a similar journey every day to work and she advised me that if I touch the yellow reader it should stop the problem (and that I will still be cover for the journey between Stratford and Finsbury Park as I have a zone 2-4 season ticket).

Looks like she's right. I must admit that the one thing I don't like is that there has been some confusion where continuation exit has been used when checked by RPIs. But the fact you have a travelcard probably keeps you in the clear there.

I spoke to a few TFL people on the phone and they all advised that I should be touching the pink reader and not the yellow reader at Stratford.

Well they're right in the main, but not with the unusual journey you're making.

Plus my attachment "tube2.png" does not have the unknown charges even though I touched in the pink reader that day. Having said that I did not go via zone 1 that day...

Eureka! You touched on a bus between the Finsbury Park touches. I think the problem is linked to the open journey from the morning, even though it is hours earlier.

So I am really confused.

I don't blame you - this is a really weird one. Had me stumped for a while.

To be honest touching the yellow reader is rather an inconvenience for me as it is in the concourse somewhere and I have to do a (very very slight) detour to touch in. I normally have very little in morning for the interchange (left home too late most of the time!) so I have to run between the underground and the overground and will have no time to touch the yellow reader. I will still touch the pink reader though (plus force of habit still makes me touch the pink reader when I am not consciously thinking otherwise)

I have only started using the yellow reader at Stratford probably from mid November onwards on a few occasions when I remembered to do that. And I don't travel to zone 1 that often after work so I don't really have a large enough sample size to determine if this will solve the issue but so far it seems to suggest it does.

An outside the box suggestion: Have you considered taking the direct trains between Highbury & Islington and Potters Bar? They take 27 minutes and do call everywhere, but they cut out the need to change at Finsbury Park and you also wouldn't need to touch pink at either Stratford or Highbury.

Not a problem just anonymise me please!

Of course.

 

[euanovsky]

Looks like she's right. I must admit that the one thing I don't like is that there has been some confusion where continuation exit has been used when checked by RPIs. But the fact you have a travelcard probably keeps you in the clear there.

So does that mean to avoid this unknown transaction charge I should just touch the yellow reader at Stratford on the way out? I think the unknown transaction arises because of the morning journey so what I do in the evening should not matter.

Eureka! You touched on a bus between the Finsbury Park touches. I think the problem is linked to the open journey from the morning, even though it is hours earlier.

I see - so a bus journey in the middle of the day sort of acts as a buffer which reset the journey?

An outside the box suggestion: Have you considered taking the direct trains between Highbury & Islington and Potters Bar? They take 27 minutes and do call everywhere, but they cut out the need to change at Finsbury Park and you also wouldn't need to touch pink at either Stratford or Highbury.

I thought about it - that would actually make it cheaper as well. So instead of getting daily return ticket I could just get another season ticket from a station at zone 4 which the train calls at (e.g. New Southgate) to Potters Bar in addition to the zone 2-4 season ticket. But then I'd rather get home (and get to work) quickly. Plus I don't travel to PB every day so getting a season ticket all the way from zone 2 doesn't really save me that much money.

Oh and if you are wondering why I didn't just get a PB to zones 2-6 annual season paper ticket that's because I like the flexibility of an oyster card and hate using paper tickets. There's the smart key but currently they still don't let people use it as PAYG which is annoying - thought they promised last year it would be PAYG ready this year.