Why do so many people want to avoid their fare?

[miami]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread really is. This is a forum where people can come for help when they have knowingly or unknowingly done something wrong. IMHO, there aren't THAT many new threads each day.

The ones I notice are either a passenger mistakingly thinking they can buy on board (as I was scrabbling to get my tickets while the train pulled in this morning, after a long queue I can sympathise), or where the railway industry is defrauding passengers.

Looking at the most recent posts:

Railway at fault (Dumfries - Glasgow mobile ticket dispute
Media Report on Lengthy queues (This mornings Northern Revenue Op - Liverpool Echo)
Hypothetical (Correct process to follow - unable to buy at origin)
Railway at fault (Default Northern Delay Repay Problem)
Railway at fault (Sept. GWR delay-repay claim, first response Dec)
Complex routing minutiae (Complaint To The Department for Transport About Fares Changes Proposed By Great Ang)

It's only after all that that we get to the first first-person report of a passenger in the wrong

Lost Ticket compounding the problem (Paid for a ticket, lost it, then got read my rights. Any advice welcome)
First actual fare avoidance, which they admitted and want to know what happens next (Settlement fine/cost)


As for the assertion
"I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare"

I'd be more staggered with the railway industry that are constantly making mistakes (more often then passengers based on the last few days in this forum) and getting away with it.



As for the gist of the "I won't pay unless I have to". Unlike a loaf of bread of tank of fuel, travel on a train has no real cost. If a passenger doesn't travel, or if they do but without a ticket, there's no real difference for the railway company. It's more like copyright infringement (say ripping a CD to put on your ipod), or not paying for a tv license, or as the OP mentioned, sneaking into a cinema. There's no specific loss to the company, but if everyone did it the service wouldn't exist.

I suspect that people caught sneaking into the odeon wouldn't be hauled up in court, just thrown out. Copyright infringement, the railway, and the tv license, seems to attract rather harsh penalties considering the loss, compared with say shoplifting.

 

[185]

I am staggered by this one :P

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...il-charge-woman-410-12309824#ICID=FB-Liv-main

 

[najaB]

I am staggered by this one :P

Already a thread about it.

 

[185]

Already a thread about it.

Lol... missed that

 

[miami]

That thread was how Northern Rail stole £404 off a commuter (they took the money and wouldn't give it back)

A spokesman for Northern Rail said: “The charge appears to have been applied to the customer’s account through genuine error and we will, of course, provide a full refund on proof of purchase.

Of course when passengers make genuine errors they get hit by £80 'fines'.

 

[najaB]

That thread was how Northern Rail stole £404 off a commuter (they took the money and wouldn't give it back)

The customer was overcharged on Saturday, realised it on Monday and by Tuesday Northern said they would refund her. Doesn't sound much like they were refusing to give it back.

 

[shredder1]

The customer was overcharged on Saturday, realised it on Monday and by Tuesday Northern said they would refund her. Doesn't sound much like they were refusing to give it back.

"She says she called Northern Rail immediately, who told her there was nothing they could do".

 

[Deerfold]

"She says she called Northern Rail immediately, who told her there was nothing they could do".

But when her mum then rang they told her what information they needed to be able to help. Perhaps there was some misunderstanding in the initial call.

 

[Clip]

But when her mum then rang they told her what information they needed to be able to help. Perhaps there was some misunderstanding in the initial call.

Indeed. And to claim they 'stole' it is rather wide of the mark by some margin

 

[shredder1]

But when her mum then rang they told her what information they needed to be able to help. Perhaps there was some misunderstanding in the initial call.

I wouldnt know, possibly ??

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Joad once boasted in print,

"I cheat the railway company whenever I can."[15] On 12 April 1948 Joad was caught travelling on a Waterloo to Exeter train without a valid ticket.[16] When he failed to give a satisfactory explanation, he was convicted of fare dodging and fined £2 (£66 as of 2016). This made front-page headlines in the national newspapers, destroyed his hopes of a peerage and resulted in his dismissal from the BBC.[17] The humiliation of this had a severe effect on Joad's health, and he soon became bed-confined at his home in Hampstead.[citation needed] Joad renounced his agnosticism and returned to the Christianity of the Church of England, which he detailed in his book The Recovery of Belief, published in 1952.[18]

This was a well known media man of the day - "The Brains Trust" - fare avoidance has probably been around since Victorian days and the first passenger train ran in service. I can thin of several well known and funded individuals who have been caught - one even gluing in ticket punch clippings to a BR style Inter City ticket of the 1970's - to no avail , he was caught and heavily fined. A mere Professor. I would add.

 

[Deerfold]

I wouldnt know, possibly ??

You wouldn't know? You seemed very sure that Northern were withholding the money.

 

[miami]

You wouldn't know? You seemed very sure that Northern were withholding the money.

Until the Echo got in touch they were refusing to help without a copy of the ticket which she didn't have.

She says she called Northern Rail immediately, who told her there was nothing they could do.

Her mum Gina then did the same, and was told by a member of staff they could help her as long as she sent a copy of the bank statement and her ticket.

It's fine, everyone makes mistakes. When the gigantic railway industry makes a "genuine error" at best they sit on the money for a few days earning interest before refunding it while the customer jumps through hoops.

However if the customer makes a genuine error, they get landed with a threat of a bylaw prosecution.

 

[shredder1]

You wouldn't know? You seemed very sure that Northern were withholding the money.

??? I`ve posted a quote answering the thread above me, please re-read?

 

[najaB]

Until the Echo got in touch they were refusing to help without a copy of the ticket which she didn't have.

Which is entirely reasonable - "I got overcharged for this item but I threw away the evidence." wouldn't get you very far in any other complaint.

 

[Agent_c]

Which is entirely reasonable - "I got overcharged for this item but I threw away the evidence." wouldn't get you very far in any other complaint.

But surely its not the only evidence that would be acceptable. A Bank statement, for instance should be able to provide enough information to get them started.

 

[najaB]

But surely its not the only evidence that would be acceptable. A Bank statement, for instance should be able to provide enough information to get them started.

The bank statement only confirms the amount that was charged - the ticket would confirm how much was supposed to have been charged.

 

[Deerfold]

But surely its not the only evidence that would be acceptable. A Bank statement, for instance should be able to provide enough information to get them started.

And how does that prove they didn't actually deliberately buy a £400 ticket?

 

[Fare-Cop]

"She says she called Northern Rail immediately, who told her there was nothing they could do".

She bought the ticket on Saturday,

She said she didn't know that her card had been overcharged until the card was declined in a shop on Monday,

She rang Northern on Monday, the refund was ultimately agreed on Tuesday.

It seems that she went to the Echo because of the unacceptable initial response, but of course the company is entitled to see proof of the loss, though if true, their first reaction could have been more sensitive

Otherwise it's pretty much a non-story it seems

I agree, Northern staff should not have made the error that overcharged her. (How many of US have NEVER made a mistake ??)

I do believe that Northern might have offered some kind of gesture of goodwill in addition to the refund to make up for the embarrassment of having the card declined unnecessarily, but no-one 'stole' anything and the unfortunate error seems to have been corrected within 24 hours of the overcharge being noticed.

The press never let the truth get in the way of a story, no matter how pathetic that story might be.

 

[shredder1]

She bought the ticket on Saturday,

She said she didn't know that her card had been overcharged until the card was declined in a shop on Monday,

She rang Northern on Monday, the refund was ultimately agreed on Tuesday.

It seems that she went to the Echo because of the unacceptable initial response, but of course the company is entitled to see proof of the loss, though if true, their first reaction could have been more sensitive

Otherwise it's pretty much a non-story it seems

I agree, Northern staff should not have made the error that overcharged her. (How many of US have NEVER made a mistake ??)

I do believe that Northern might have offered some kind of gesture of goodwill in addition to the refund to make up for the embarrassment of having the card declined unnecessarily, but no-one 'stole' anything and the unfortunate error seems to have been corrected within 24 hours of the overcharge being noticed.

The press never let the truth get in the way of a story, no matter how pathetic that story might be.

Saturday, Correct!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And how does that prove they didn't actually deliberately buy a £400 ticket?

I`m sure it was deliberate, people do it all the time, lol

What it really is, is journalist sensationalism, it sells copy of course and its stretched to 50 posts here :roll:

 

[Deerfold]

Saturday, Correct!

What point are you making?

I don't think anyone is disputing when her journey was.

I'm sure it was deliberate, people do it all the time, lol

I'm not suggesting it was deliberate in this case. I'm suggesting a company would want to be able to tell that, otherwise they'll have a queue of people buying first class return tickets to London but claiming they were only going to the next station.

What it really is, is journalist sensationalism, it sells copy of course and its stretched to 50 posts here :roll:

You seem to be doing your best to keep the thread going.

 

[shredder1]

What point are you making?

I don't think anyone is disputing when her journey was.



I'm not suggesting it was deliberate in this case. I'm suggesting a company would want to be able to tell that, otherwise they'll have a queue of people buying first class return tickets to London but claiming they were only going to the next station.



You seem to be doing your best to keep the thread going.

We all have to do our bit Dearfold

 

[Agent_c]

And how does that prove they didn't actually deliberately buy a £400 ticket?

How would the ticket prove that? You could just say they threw away the £400 one if they only have the other one or say they wanted it if they have the error one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The bank statement only confirms the amount that was charged - the ticket would confirm how much was supposed to have been charged.

With that you can go back to the specific transaction on the POS unit and see what was there - there may be a keylogging system so it might even be able to see what was input.. You'd then be in the same place that the customer would have been in on the monday - either with a ticket that they didn't want (unlikely as they didn't notice the price), or without a ticket that they paid for but never got (and never wanted).

 

[Deerfold]

How would the ticket prove that? You could just say they threw away the £400 one if they only have the other one or say they wanted it if they have the error one.

With that you can go back to the specific transaction on the POS unit and see what was there - there may be a keylogging system so it might even be able to see what was input.. You'd then be in the same place that the customer would have been in on the monday - either with a ticket that they didn't want (unlikely as they didn't notice the price), or without a ticket that they paid for but never got (and never wanted).

The retailer may have found they have an unissued £400 ticket. The customer's ticket will let them know when and where it was issued and thus they may be able to match them up. They'll certainly have more information than from a bank statement alone.

 

[najaB]

With that you can go back to the specific transaction on the POS unit and see what was there...

Not from a standard bank statement you can't - they don't record the authorisation code, nor often the exact time the transaction was conducted.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which is entirely reasonable - "I got overcharged for this item but I threw away the evidence." wouldn't get you very far in any other complaint.

Of course the issue isn't that she "threw away the evidence". The ticket, as we know, technically belongs to Northern and Northern decided to retain that ticket after use at Liverpool Lime Street. This is just yet another reason why retaining tickets at ticket barriers causes issues.

 

[jon0844]

I see it on the buses all the time in my area of London. Women with pushchairs deliberately board at the exit door and make no attempt to tap in at the entrance. But that's another story

There are rather a lot of dishonest people out there who will nearly always chance it if they know they can get away with it

I got into an argument with someone who did that, as I had boarded through the front (and paid) only to lose a space for my buggy because a guy had come on via the exit doors. He didn't care, obviously doing it before and not about to change his habits because of me - and the fact the driver can't do anything, thus showing his attitude works.

Interestingly, in Sweden a parent with a child in a buggy travels free so they can board via the middle doors.

 

[najaB]

Of course the issue isn't that she "threw away the evidence". The ticket, as we know, technically belongs to Northern and Northern decided to retain that ticket after use at Liverpool Lime Street.

To quote the article

Lauren Smith, 21, bought a ticket to Chester...

...Lauren discarded the ticket after the 40-minute journey,

Nothing there about Northern keeping it at Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not from a standard bank statement you can't - they don't record the authorisation code, nor often the exact time the transaction was conducted.

I used to work in retail and we got many 'sight of voucher' requests and could track the specific time and auth code for any transaction requested. I would be very surprised if the transaction couldn't be tracked.

I don't,nor have ever worked, in a bank but over the years I have queried many transactions and they have always been able to give me much more specific information than what's on my statement. Including time of transaction.

There is also the question of a receipt. Each time I use my card I get a receipt and that includes when buying a train ticket. Even if I dumped my train ticket I would still have a card receipt.

 

[Camden]

Britain has developed an underlying culture of self-entitlement, where the "fault" lies with those that take umbrage at it rather than with those who are taking the michael.