London Connections

[L&Y Robert]

Last week I needed to go from Banbury, where I live, to Northwood in Greater London. From time to time I have noticed the TfL trains running alongside Chiltern trains, so imagined I could change from Chiltern onto the Metropolitan somewhere in the Ruislip area.
But NO! Chiltern, at least from the High Wycombe direction, only connects with the TfL Central Line out there. So I went all the way in - to Marylebone, then all the way out again from Baker St., enjoying some of the view a second time, but from different rails!

When I got home again, I had a really good look at the TfL maps, the google street-maps, the Network Rail maps, and confirmed that the short cut I wanted can’t be done! – at least, not on rails. But whilst swotting this up I noticed there are other places where two lines cross, without there being a station - a physical connection one line to another. What wasted opportunities!

In my case, a station on the Chiltern/Central lines between West Ruislip and Ruislip Gardens could also be on the Met./Picadilly lines between Ickenham and Ruislip. A two level station - like Tamworth on West Coast main line. Very handy if making a London peripheral journey, and handy too for the staff at TfL’s Ruislip depot.

Now I don’t know London too well, especially at detailed level, so I don’t know whether my Ruislip Depot station is physically possible, or whether, in another example, the two stations at Bethnal Green are close together or far apart. But I can see that their respective lines cross each other.

So what do you Londonists think?

 

[itfcfan]

It's a 10-15min walk from West Ruislip station to Ickenham station. If you wanted to avoid going into central London and preferred underground transport, that walk would allow you to change at Harrow on the Hill to get to Northwood in ~30mins (not including the walk).

Alternatively, if you walked 10-15mins in the opposite direction from West Ruislip to Ruslip high street, you could take the 331 bus taking ~20mins to Northwood (not including the walk).

The bigger problem is Chiltern not providing many services in suburban London, so there are few stops at West Ruislip or South Ruislip to use these options...

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe this theoretical Central/Met interchange near West Ruislip has been asked for quite often over the years. There was a discussion of the feasibility in London Reconnnections a few years ago here: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/north-by-north-west-ruislip/

I would have thought TfL would have far greater priorities for their limited budget though.

 

[jopsuk]

Bad interchanges are a common feature in outer London.

Picadilly- Chiltern: The Sudbury Hill interchange is relatively short, but Sudbury Hill Harrow, in common with the other Chiltern stations on this section, has poor service
Overground Watford DC-Chiltern: fair walk between Central and Stadium stations
Picadilly-Central: two bad/missed interchanges in short succession.
Overground WLL-Central: nothing really useful
Metropolitan-Thameslink Kenton and Northwick Park are not exactly adjacent
Overground GOBLIN: is terrible pretty much throughout. Crosses LOTS of lines - Northern, ECML, Picadilly, Victoria, Overground Enfield/Chesunt, Lee Valley, Overground Chingford (sort of interchanges), Central and GEML. Connects to the NLL and LTS at the ends, achives one sort of interchange en-route, has poor or no interchange with 8 other lines.

But then move stations on each line to have them at the crossing point, and suddenly the gaps between stations on one or other line becomes awkward. Or the existing stations are in local town centres, the lines cross in parkland or heath or an industrial area. It's not that simple, and very much the product of there not being a central plan when the lines were built.

 

[bb21]

Overground WLL-Central: nothing really useful

What's wrong with Shepherd's Bush?

 

[jopsuk]

What's wrong with Shepherd's Bush?

Oops. I was meaning the Richmond Branch, but of course, that connection is good. But of you want to go eg Perivale to Richmond you've got a fair bit of walking at some point.

 

[bb21]

Oops. I was meaning the Richmond Branch, but of course, that connection is good. But of you want to go eg Perivale to Richmond you've got a fair bit of walking at some point.

Ah lol. You see, the Richmond branch is technically part of the NLL, hence my query.

 

[Class 170101]

There are whats called Out Of Station Interchanegs (OSIs)

Barry Doe has referred to them in the past.

GOB to Tufnell Park is one. Walthamstow Stations is another, Forest Gate to Wansted Park etc.

Out of Station Interchanges

 

[Mordac]

There are whats called Out Of Station Interchanegs (OSIs)

Barry Doe has referred to them in the past.

GOB to Tufnell Park is one. Walthamstow Stations is another, Forest Gate to Wansted Park etc.

Out of Station Interchanges

Is Newark Castle and Newark North Gate one as well?

 

[Clip]

Is Newark Castle and Newark North Gate one as well?

I may have missed it living here for over 10 years but Newark isn't part of London I don't think

 

[Mordac]

I may have missed it living here for over 10 years but Newark isn't part of London I don't think

I didn't know Out of Station Interchanges were a London specific thing. The post I was replying to doesn't mention it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Metropolitan-Thameslink Kenton and Northwick Park are not exactly adjacent

It's about a five minute walk, it's probably a longer walk between some parts of Kings Cross St Pancras Underground than it is between those two stations.

Overground GOBLIN: is terrible pretty much throughout. Crosses LOTS of lines - Northern, ECML, Picadilly, Victoria, Overground Enfield/Chesunt, Lee Valley, Overground Chingford (sort of interchanges), Central and GEML. Connects to the NLL and LTS at the ends, achives one sort of interchange en-route, has poor or no interchange with 8 other lines.

It's not that much further between the GoBLin and the Central in Leytonstone, same at Walthamstow and between Woodgrange Park and Manor Park, and the "sort of interchange" at Blackhorse Road is in the same station.

Most of the connections in outer London are poor because longer-distance trains don't stop at the small stations in outer London, not because the stations aren't there.

 

[Bookd]

How about Brixton where the main NR service is next to the underground but the LO service passes above on a flyover. In theory it should be possible to connect them all but it would be difficult, expensive (and might involve demolishing the leisure centre)

 

[Dr_Paul]

How about Brixton where the main NR service is next to the underground but the LO service passes above on a flyover. In theory it should be possible to connect them all but it would be difficult, expensive (and might involve demolishing the leisure centre)

Building a station at Brixton on the South London Line would be a major undertaking. On the other hand, it would be very useful, as it is daft that the SLL, with its myriad connections, does not have a station at a key South London transport hub.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't know Out of Station Interchanges were a London specific thing. The post I was replying to doesn't mention it.

"Out of station interchanges" is a term that describes how Oyster PAYG links what would otherwise have to be charged as two journeys. In other words it is a fares term. Nothing much to do with interchanging between stations on separate sites with a walk, which is all you are really doing on a normal paper ticket valid between the example mentioned of the two Newarks. In the initial context of this thread, building new stations where lines cross, it is a bit of a red herring and I don't quite see why it was mentioned at all...

 

[IanD]

"Out of station interchanges" is a term that describes how Oyster PAYG links what would otherwise have to be charged as two journeys. ... In the initial context of this thread, building new stations where lines cross, it is a bit of a red herring and I don't quite see why it was mentioned at all...

Probably to point out that now osi's are available, there is often no need to build stations where lines cross if the 2 osi stations are not that far apart.

Hackney Central and Hackney Downs is a case where two close osi stations on crossing were linked by a walkway. It could have been done better* but at more expense and this method is a lot, lot cheaper than a new station or resiting of two others.

*Having tried it myself the other week, it is a tortuous process to get from Westbound North London Line to Northbound Chingford line - along the platform at Hackney Central, up the stairs, cross the bridge, down the stairs, along the Eastbound platform, up a walkway/ramp, up some more stairs, along the Southbound platform at Hackney Downs, down the stairs, through the under-platform tunnel and finally up the stairs to the Northbound platform. If you're lucky, you'll do it in 10 minutes at a normal walking pace! Obviously a bit easier going the other way. Still, much preferable than the old street level route.

 

[Mordac]

"Out of station interchanges" is a term that describes how Oyster PAYG links what would otherwise have to be charged as two journeys. In other words it is a fares term. Nothing much to do with interchanging between stations on separate sites with a walk, which is all you are really doing on a normal paper ticket valid between the example mentioned of the two Newarks. In the initial context of this thread, building new stations where lines cross, it is a bit of a red herring and I don't quite see why it was mentioned at all...

Okay, thank you, my bad.

 

[Busaholic]

How about Brixton where the main NR service is next to the underground but the LO service passes above on a flyover. In theory it should be possible to connect them all but it would be difficult, expensive (and might involve demolishing the leisure centre)

There has been no political will - now, if this was West Hampstead....

 

[matt_world2004]

You might be better changing to the central at West or South Ruislip, getting off at Northolt and taking the 140 bus from Northolt to Harrow on the Hill, it will save going into London and even though there are more interchanges, they are shorter distance interchanges than going into Marylebone and doubling back.

 

[urbophile]

Building a station at Brixton on the South London Line would be a major undertaking. On the other hand, it would be very useful, as it is daft that the SLL, with its myriad connections, does not have a station at a key South London transport hub.

There used to be East Brixton (not, as far as I can see, immediately adjacent but near enough) but that was destroyed by fire I believe.

 

[Clip]

Okay, thank you, my bad.

Not only what swt_passenger said but the thread is about London connections

 

[Muzer]

Not in the area you were talking about, but Chiltern had this grand scheme a while back to turn West Hampstead into a Clapham Junction-like hub, with covered walkways forming a huge station complex connecting Thameslink, Midland Main Line, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Chiltern and North London Lines. Of course this would have required the cooperation of all operators involved but besides the Met, this looked forthcoming. Unfortunately it was scuppered by the local council who didn't want a giant interchange station.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding West Hampstead, I'm sure I read somewhere that the condition for the Great Central Railway constructing a pair of adjacent tracks beside the Metropolitan quad tracks was that the Met had it enshrined in law that the GCR were not allowed to construct their own stations between Harrow-on-the-Hill and London Marylebone.

If that is the case and as the Act of Parliament that authorised the construction of the London Extension of the GCR still exists today (it has never been repealed to the best of my knowledge), then all it would require is a simple amendment to be added to the text something phrased similar to "with the exception at West Hampstead" so as to clear the first hurdle of constructing platforms on the GCR tracks.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's about a five minute walk, it's probably a longer walk between some parts of Kings Cross St Pancras Underground than it is between those two stations.

To be fair, that's not really saying much. I'm sure there are times when I've caught the bus to go a shorter distance than you can walk in the Kings Cross-St Pancras maze station complex.

How about Brixton where the main NR service is next to the underground but the LO service passes above on a flyover. In theory it should be possible to connect them all but it would be difficult, expensive (and might involve demolishing the leisure centre)

That actually caught me out once - the first time I travelled on that route and was in a hurry so didn't check the train stopping patterns too carefully. I just assumed that because on the map the railway clearly went through Brixton station, and Brixton was a relatively important place, it was obvious that the Overground and SouthEastern metro would both stop so I'd be able to change trains there. Was something of a shock when the train whizzed through...

Building a station at Brixton on the South London Line would be a major undertaking. On the other hand, it would be very useful, as it is daft that the SLL, with its myriad connections, does not have a station at a key South London transport hub.

Would it? I can see that building platforms on the flyover would be a big task, but there are also the low level lines just north of the existing platforms that run towards Denmark Hill. It doesn't look to me like it'd be that hard to build platforms on those tracks? (Although I appreciate that having more trains forced to use those tracks might increase potential conflicts/run into capacity issues west of Brixton)

 

[jopsuk]

Would it? I can see that building platforms on the flyover would be a big task, but there are also the low level lines just north of the existing platforms that run towards Denmark Hill. It doesn't look to me like it'd be that hard to build platforms on those tracks? (Although I appreciate that having more trains forced to use those tracks might increase potential conflicts/run into capacity issues west of Brixton)

There used to be platforms on the other tracks. But the slow lines at Victoria and LO both need to be on the southern pair of tracks.

 

[hwl]

Would it? I can see that building platforms on the flyover would be a big task, but there are also the low level lines just north of the existing platforms that run towards Denmark Hill. It doesn't look to me like it'd be that hard to build platforms on those tracks? (Although I appreciate that having more trains forced to use those tracks might increase potential conflicts/run into capacity issues west of Brixton)

The low level Catford Loop lines at Brixton used to have 4car platforms but those lines are used for (circa half*) the fast SE services to Bromley South via the Catford Loop and further east the Thameslink services via the Catford Loop are segregated on to those lines on the 4 track section west of Peckham Rye.
No chance of stopping anything on the Catford Loop lines at Brixton without rewriting the whole ex-LCDR and Thameslink timetables... (And probably still no chance)

*The fast SE services have to be split roughly equally via Herne Hill and the Loop routes.

 

[urpert]

Overground Watford DC-Chiltern: fair walk between Central and Stadium stations

I think you mean Wembley.

The Crofton Park/Nunhead/Brockley/Honor Oak Park area is another missed opportunity, though some sort of interchange here does occasionally turn up in TfL future plans.

 

[Thebaz]

I was going to mention that. The Southeastern line crosses over the Southern lines towards at the north end of Brockley station platforms between Nunhead and Crofton Park. The bridge buttresses are literally on the platforms. I'm sure I read that there is a plan for an interchange here as part of Crossrail 2.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was going to mention that. The Southeastern line crosses over the Southern lines towards at the north end of Brockley station platforms between Nunhead and Crofton Park. The bridge buttresses are literally on the platforms. I'm sure I read that there is a plan for an interchange here as part of Crossrail 2.

It's a definite TfL idea, but nothing to do with Crossrail 2 though, it runs nowhere near the 'southeast sector'. Probably an idea to go with transfer of SE Metro services to Overground, unfortunately that's now on the back burner again.

 

[urpert]

It's a definite TfL idea, but nothing to do with Crossrail 2 though, it runs nowhere near the 'southeast sector'. Probably an idea to go with transfer of SE Metro services to Overground, unfortunately that's now on the back burner again.

Though all trains serving Crofton Park are now operated by Thameslink so wouldn't have been part of the TfL transfer anyway.