Do train drivers race each other?

[fairysdad]

Obviously, within the limits that they have with regard to speed limits (line and stock), safe driving, signals, etc.

Wondering from my daily trips into Waterloo, were SWTs 455s run alongside 444 and 450s, or the departure from Clapham Junction where SWT and Southern can leave at the same time. (SWT usually seem to be the quicker ones!)

There was a particular instance last week where my 455 out of Clapham left at the same time as a 458(?). The 455 caught up with the 458 by the time it called at Queenstown Road (where it had to stop), yet the 458 had caught up again when we both stopped at Vauxhall. A simultaneous departure kept us mostly alongside each other with us managing to eke forward until a signal check slowed us down allowing the 458 to enter Waterloo's platforms just ahead of us. I didn't see who stopped first as, alas, the platforms between us were occupied with other services.

(I may have made that more dramatic than it needed to be - but it was at the end of a long week!)

 

[CommuterPigeon]

I was on a TPE service between Stockport and Piccadilly a couple of years ago when the driver announced that we were in a race with a XC Voyager that was alongside us. Both services had mixed results through the signals but upon arrival into Piccadilly the driver announced that we had won. It gave the passengers a good chuckle and clearly made the driver's day!

 

[colchesterken]

In the old days at 6pm (then) my local cl 306 and a cl 40 hauled Norwich would leave Liv st together, The way they ran I think it was a bit of challenge for the electric to get to Stratford before the Norwich when rushing by often with a two tone comment. very often D208

 

[DarloRich]

no - i would very much doubt train drivers race each other.

 

[XC90]

no - i would very much doubt train drivers race each other.

Despite the post above reminiscing of the TPE 'race'?

I was on a Scotrail service between Paisley and Glasgow going down the middle line when the stopping service came up the inside of us and undertook us. We passed it though when it stopped at Hillington West.

 

[ComUtoR]

Despite the post above reminiscing of the TPE 'race'?

I think what you hear over the PA is a lot different from what is happening inside the cab.

I first heard the term 'train racing' on this forum. Its more of a phenomenon of two trains beside each other than any form of out and out racing.

What would determine start and finish lines and how would the Drivers of their respective trains communicate ?

I was on a Scotrail service between Paisley and Glasgow going down the middle line when the stopping service came up the inside of us and undertook us. We passed it though when it stopped at Hillington West.

Not really 'racing' though are they.

I will admit that I have looked along side me to the unit on the other line and thought about who will stop at the platform first but from a performance perspective of the other unit and braking style of the other Driver. What I'm doing in the cab doesn't change and I'm never racing the other unit. Signals, stock, and railhead conditions, determine how I drive. Never another unit/Driver.

There is probably one or two who have done it in the past or do silly things out there but I would say the majority, and hopefully everyone, drives safe 100% of the time.

 

[theironroad]

I will admit that I have looked along side me to the unit on the other line and thought about who will stop at the platform first but from a performance perspective of the other unit and braking style of the other Driver. What I'm doing in the cab doesn't change and I'm never racing the other unit. Signals, stock, and railhead conditions, determine how I drive. Never another unit/Driver.

There is probably one or two who have done it in the past or do silly things out there but I would say the majority, and hopefully everyone, drives safe 100% of the time.

+1

It's interesting to see who gets away from a station first sometimes when both have clear signals and line speed permits. Usually down to unit type and performance more than anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite the post above reminiscing of the TPE 'race'?

A PA joke doesn't necessarily say that the drivers were doing anything other than driving professionally and correctly

 

[DasLunatic]

In the old days at 6pm (then) my local cl 306 and a cl 40 hauled Norwich would leave Liv st together, The way they ran I think it was a bit of challenge for the electric to get to Stratford before the Norwich when rushing by often with a two tone comment. very often D208

I pored over some old Anglia WTTs one evening and was surprised to see that until at least 2004-5, two trains left Liverpool Street at the same time. A 360 ran up the Electrics until around Maryland crossovers, by which point the 86/90 had got far enough ahead to allow the Dessie in behind it. If you're so inclined, you can take the role of the slow driver on one of the scenarios in the Great Eastern AP pack, IIRC.

The 90 has a two-minute headstart nowadays, to give the train behind it a guaranteed path on the Main lines and keep the Electrics purely for TfL use.

 

[ComUtoR]

+1

It's interesting to see who gets away from a station first sometimes when both have clear signals and line speed permits. Usually down to unit type and performance more than anything.

Bromley South. Networker Vs 375. The Networker pulls away first and is generally always in front. Just before I'm thinking about Bickley the 375 will overtake. At full pelt the 375 will still overtake.

Coming into Bromley South the 375 will almost always beat me into the platform. They are on the inside curve and brake much much later than I do.

Not really seen one Vs a 319 as their pathways don't tend to meet. A 319 is pretty slow tbh, despite what the figures suggest. Through the mid range speed they really drag and more so on DC than AC.

319 Vs 465 There's a point in which I mark my speed for a performance check when departing a certain station. The 319 hits linespeed earlier than the Networker does. I generally mark that point to help determine my unit performance and if I'm late running it helps determine if its the unit or the Driver

 

[Cherry_Picker]

A PA joke doesn't necessarily say that the drivers were doing anything other than driving professionally and correctly

Quite. Chiltern services out of Marylebone will 'race' against Jubilee & Met line services for three or four miles between Finchley Road and Neasden/Harrow on the Hill. If it's the school holidays and you know there are a load of kids on board then it's sometimes fun to make a comment about having a race. Allowing for the acceleration of the traction and the speed limits of the line they all end in almost exactly the same way (in this specific instance if trains are neck and neck at West Hampstead then the Tube will pull away at Kilburn before being reeled in and overtaken somewhere between Dollis Hill and Neasden) so there's never any drama for someone who knows the route but people out for the day seem to enjo the illusion.

 

[yorkie]

Obviously, within the limits that they have with regard to speed limits (line and stock), safe driving, signals, etc.

It's unclear what you are asking. What is your definition of a 'race'?

If a 'race' means adhering to all the rules as you state above, and you just happen to be alongside another train also adhering to all the rules, then if that constitutes a 'race' by your definition, then the answer is of course yes, as there are many locations where this would happen, with the example being given by Cherry_Picker in the post above mine being a good example.

 

[broadgage]

I very much doubt that any real racing takes place these days, though trains of broadly similar performance and subject to identical line speeds may often keep pace with each other, or one might only very slowly overtake the other.

However back in the day, things were different ! Apparently there was a well understood "code" at Paddington that indicated that HST and London underground drivers were game for a race on leaving Paddington.
The electric Hammersmith and City underground trains had a much greater rate of acceleration than an HST, which in turn had a much higher top speed.

Also back in the old days, some foolish speeds were attained on late night ECS moves from Waterloo and no doubt elsewhere.

Much further back, there was the famous "race to the north" between the East coast and West coast routes from London to Scotland, in the 1890s.
This was not racing on parallel tracks, the routes were separate until Kinnabar Junction, were they converged. The race was therefore won by whichever train approached the junction first.

 

[dubscottie]

Drivers have been doing it for years (since LNER times anyway) leaving Haymarket. A wee toot to say "ready" and race as far as Saughton Junction were the Glasgow/Fife lines split.

Whatever is on the Glasgow line usually wins.

 

[satisnek]

Not exactly 'racing', but even as far back as the 1970s, thanks to the LSW main line having 90mph slow lines, it was common to see trains running 'neck and neck' between Woking and Surbiton.

 

[adrock1976]

On London Underground, there is the section between Barons Court and Acton Town at least where the Piccadilly Line and District Line trains can appear to "race" each other.

 

[theironroad]

In the modern climate of instant passenger social media and print/broadcast media living to bash the railways, any driver who'd PA they're having a race needs a chat with.....

The most innocent remarks would end up being blown out of all proportion....

 

[47271]

Drivers have been doing it for years (since LNER times anyway) leaving Haymarket. A wee toot to say "ready" and race as far as Saughton Junction were the Glasgow/Fife lines split.

Whatever is on the Glasgow line usually wins.

I regularly leave Waverley in the evening aboard a 170 heading for the Forth Bridge. Alongside more often than not we have a 380 on its way towards Carstairs. Never have I seen the 380 by the time we reappear at Haymarket, it's probably already at Midcalder by the time we leave the tunnel. [emoji38]

 

[Dhassell]

At Bristol Temple Meads at xx00 and xx30 a Voyager and a GWR HST leave at the same time. Normally the voyager gets dispatched quicker and accelerates past the HST but they both quickly get to line speed.

 

[DarloRich]

Despite the post above reminiscing of the TPE 'race'?

yes - they were clearly jocular comments.

I was on a Scotrail service between Paisley and Glasgow going down the middle line when the stopping service came up the inside of us and undertook us. We passed it though when it stopped at Hillington West.

The vagaries of signalling, timetabling and performance.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

The Salisbury train crash in 1906 was as a direct result of the rivalry between the GWR and the LSWR, both of which tried to get the Boat Trains to Plymouth first.

They weren't racing side by side, but the aim was to get to Salisbury before the other. This link from Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_rail_crash tells the full story.

 

[Western Lord]

The Salisbury train crash in 1906 was as a direct result of the rivalry between the GWR and the LSWR, both of which tried to get the Boat Trains to Plymouth first.

They weren't racing side by side, but the aim was to get to Salisbury before the other. This link from Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_rail_crash tells the full story.

Interesting routing if GWR boat trains were going through Salisbury! The aim, of course, was to get to London first.

 

[glbotu]

I was on a TPE service between Stockport and Piccadilly a couple of years ago when the driver announced that we were in a race with a XC Voyager that was alongside us. Both services had mixed results through the signals but upon arrival into Piccadilly the driver announced that we had won. It gave the passengers a good chuckle and clearly made the driver's day!

If it's TPE, it would probably have been the guard (and having been on a lot of TPE services, I reckon I could guess which guard within 2 or 3). There's definitely a few guards on TPE which make very amusing PA announcements.

 

[Minilad]

In a word. No.

 

[Deepgreen]

I was on a TPE service between Stockport and Piccadilly a couple of years ago when the driver announced that we were in a race with a XC Voyager that was alongside us. Both services had mixed results through the signals but upon arrival into Piccadilly the driver announced that we had won. It gave the passengers a good chuckle and clearly made the driver's day!

Without wishing to be a kill-joy, if that really was the case, it was incredibly irresponsible of the driver to have; a) claimed/admitted it was the case (even if joking), b) done it at all (IF it was indeed a race - and how would both drivers know?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the old days at 6pm (then) my local cl 306 and a cl 40 hauled Norwich would leave Liv st together, The way they ran I think it was a bit of challenge for the electric to get to Stratford before the Norwich when rushing by often with a two tone comment. very often D208

I suspect the horn was to warn any passengers on the platform of a non-stop approaching (in the old Stratford configuration this would have been a little-used platform though if I recall correctly?).

 

[Deepgreen]

Not a race, but as many posts refer to side-by-side running, here is one I enjoyed photographing from last week, between Victoria and Clapham Junction.

 

[Taunton]

Back in the last days of steam in the early1960s, and doubtless before, the Taunton to Minehead local left its bay at the west end of Taunton station a few minutes after the main express from Bristol and the north. Quite a number of the latter used to change crews at Taunton, who would stand having a chat to the Minehead crew, as the two trains stood on opposite sides of the platform. If the main train ran in a bit late, the Minehead would wait, connecting passengers would be hurried along, mails exchanged, and both would be ready to leave at the same time .......

The "game" was for the Minehead, heading out onto the Down Relief, to not only show the express its tail lamp by Staplegrove Road bridge, but to get stopped at Norton Fitzwarren platform before the express passed it. The Castle with maybe 11 on would wind out over the crossover onto the Down Main, steadily opening out to full regulator and 75% cutoff, not only for the race but to get all possible speed before the start of Wellington Bank. The Minehead would be a 45xx with 4 non-corridors. Out at the footbridge west of the station it was a glorious sight to see all this coming, both drivers with noses against the glass, Minehead fireman looking back (express fireman was too busy on the shovel to do this). And on they went.

Nobody ever got on (and very few off) at Norton Fitzwarren, so after a certain "toot" was exchanged as the express passed, if an up service was just a few minutes away the signalman would be grateful to get the Minehead, and maybe even the Barnstaple that had followed a block behind, away in seconds and across the junction there promptly, the moment the down express had its signals restored. Whereupon a more relaxed atmosphere came to the footplate, and also up in the signalbox, where there had been several moments of old Ivan crashing the levers over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without wishing to be a kill-joy, if that really was the case, it was incredibly irresponsible of the driver to have; a) claimed/admitted it was the case (even if joking)

Was a joke really irresponsible?

 

[physics34]

ive caught up with an train on an adjacent line and turned to the driver and smiled (as if to say im beating you!) and then overtaken him...... all within safety speeds and signals etc i have to point out!

 

[Deepgreen]

Was a joke really irresponsible?

When/if it is likely to have been taken seriously by many people (who may have recognised that the driver was 'chuckling', but not that he hadn't been racing), when rail safety is under scrutiny - yes, in my opinion. However, I wasn't there, and it all might have been very innocuous.