Lack of buses from Outer to Central London

[anti-pacer]

Given that from most Outer London suburbs you can't get a direct bus into Central London, do you think there would be demand for a network of express routes from places like Romford, Orpington, Uxbridge, Kingston, and the like?

I know all these are linked by rail, underground or both, but so are most places closer to Central London.

Uxbridge to Central London could run via either the A40 or M4, Romford via the A12, and Orpington via the A20.

Do you think there would be demand?

 

[deltic]

The congestion and unreliability of routes would make them very unattractive to most travellers. Given the very low flat bus fares they would also be uneconomic to operate.

However, there would be significant demand amongst the unseen army of very low paid cleaning staff who descend on central London in their thousands by night bus who often travel relatively long distances.

There has often been talk of replicating the rail network with limited stop bus/coach services at night and a couple of semi-serious studies have been done but nothing has ever come of it.

 

[Flying Snail]

Given that from most Outer London suburbs you can't get a direct bus into Central London, do you think there would be demand for a network of express routes from places like Romford, Orpington, Uxbridge, Kingston, and the like?

I know all these are linked by rail, underground or both, but so are most places closer to Central London.

Uxbridge to Central London could run via either the A40 or M4, Romford via the A12, and Orpington via the A20.

Do you think there would be demand?

Would the journey times be at all competitive with rail/tube? Road travel in London seems to me to be ball-achingly slow but maybe there are some routes that could be viable.

The decline and cancellation of the A1 and A2 Heathrow-London express routes probably gives some indication, if it is not viable to somewhere with the traffic of Heathrow then I can't see many other places within Greater London sustaining an express route.

 

[anti-pacer]

Would the journey times be at all competitive with rail/tube? Road travel in London seems to me to be ball-achingly slow but maybe there are some routes that could be viable.

The decline and cancellation of the A1 and A2 Heathrow-London express routes probably gives some indication, if it is not viable to somewhere with the traffic of Heathrow then I can't see many other places within Greater London sustaining an express route.

Take Uxbridge for example. On a clear run via the A40, you could reach Baker Street faster than a ride on the Metropolitan Line.

 

[Busaholic]

Take Uxbridge for example. On a clear run via the A40, you could reach Baker Street faster than a ride on the Metropolitan Line.

You've chosen Uxbridge as an example, but it DOES already have an express service, the 607. It may not meet your criteria, but it skips stops that the 427 and 207 serve and is consequently much quicker for a longer journey. Many of the places you mention had Green Line express services into central London until the 1970s, but they became far too unreliable because of traffic conditions and so, over less than a decade, most disappeared. The 721, for instance, had a 12 minute peak frequency within my memory from Brentwood and Romford into Aldgate: the 704/705 combined one of 15 minutes throughout the day from Bromley and Lewisham into Victoria, and the same from Windsor and Slough. Uxbridge was, I think, the preserve of the 710 and 711 iirc and may have gone via Hanger Lane after Hillingdon Station. The only time I used the 704 before its demise, when I worked for LT and travelled free, I was one of about three passengers on a morning journey from Lewisham to Victoria in a long Routemaster coach. The writing was on the wall and, regrettably, it has now obliterated that wall.

 

[Flying Snail]

Take Uxbridge for example. On a clear run via the A40, you could reach Baker Street faster than a ride on the Metropolitan Line.

There is the Oxford Tube and X90 from Hillingdon, both take passengers to/from central London.

 

[daodao]

Given that from most Outer London suburbs you can't get a direct bus into Central London, do you think there would be demand for a network of express routes from places like Romford, Orpington, Uxbridge, Kingston, and the like?

I know all these are linked by rail, underground or both, but so are most places closer to Central London.

Uxbridge to Central London could run via either the A40 or M4, Romford via the A12, and Orpington via the A20.

Do you think there would be demand?

Re-invent Green Line!? I doubt if such services would be viable, given today's road congestion. I recall using Green Line 718 on a regular basis from Victoria to Roehampton, and occasionally route 715 from there to go to Central London, in the late 1970s, and they were quite useful as direct services. However, they were relatively infrequent (generally hourly) and weren't as useful as rail for most journeys to rail-served destinations. Roehampton was some distance from the nearest railway station (at Barnes).

 

[sk688]

If you have ever used the 18 the whole way between Sudbury and Euston , then it's easy to understand the lack of services between Outer and Central London. Sometimes it takes two hours , when instead one could get a bus to Marylebone and an ( infrequent ) CR train. All In all , around 45 minutes. So an hour and 15 min saving .No wonder why there aren't many of these buses

Although there are some , like the aforementioned 18 and 25 from Illford to Oxford Circus and 134 from Central London to Finchley , 13 from Golders Green to Aldwych and the 607,427,207 are just a few I can name

 

[Zxwii]

53 from Plumstead to Whitehall.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I have to agree with everyone else. My friend lives in Loughton in Zone 6 and we regularly travel to Marble Arch which is already 25 minutes on the Central Line. I doubt a bus would be any quicker (look at the 25 for instance).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Re-invent Green Line!? I doubt if such services would be viable, given today's road congestion. I recall using Green Line 718 on a regular basis from Victoria to Roehampton, and occasionally route 715 from there to go to Central London, in the late 1970s, and they were quite useful as direct services. However, they were relatively infrequent (generally hourly) and weren't as useful as rail for most journeys to rail-served destinations. Roehampton was some distance from the nearest railway station (at Barnes).

that post brought back fond memories... as a child I also used to travel regular from Roehampton to central London (nan lived on the Alton East Estate). We always caught the 85 to Putney Bridge and then got the underground... unless of course we had a special treat which involved walking to the Earl Spencer and then a 30 all the way to Kings X.... we NEVER used the green line services... in fact I can't remember ever seeing anyone getting on/off the green lines at roehampton...

as an aside I remember Nan & Grandad trying the 727 from Kingston to Luton... and them arriving THREE hours late.... perhaps that might explain why most of the Green Line network died a death?

 

[CatfordCat]

There have been a few, albeit mainly in peak hours including -

X15 from Beckton (late 80s until the DLR Beckton branch opened)

X43 from Potters Bar / Muswell Hill (1990s)

177X from Thamesmead (mid 80s)

There were also limited stop routes 615 and 616 in the early 70s covering parts of the 15 and 16 routes - the 616 hung around for a reasonable time.

and of course the X 68 from Croydon / Norwood which is still running - serves quite a few areas that are beyond a comfortable walking distance to the nearest station/s.

Not sure how much demand there would be - with the sort of integrated ticketing that London has, and traffic delays, while there's some benefit from a through journey (most of the above routes covered areas that don't - or didn't - have a direct rail link) journeys are mostly quicker by using buses to connect in to rail / underground interchanges.

While there are arguments for financial support of bus services, it's questionable how valuable it is to have a bus that might carry one load of passengers in to central london in the morning peak and another load back in the afternoon, rather than a bus that might carry a few loads of passengers to a suburban interchange.

Most of the commuter / green line coach services have foundered on this bit of economics - it's worth bearing in mind that most of the London coach services that have survived have traffic to the 'country' destination as well (e.g. Windsor, Luton Airport, Oxford)

Having said that, I have a vague recollection of a plan for an express bus network in London that was floated by the GLC some time in the late 70s / 80s, which never came to anything.

 

[JonathanH]

and of course the X 68 from Croydon / Norwood which is still running - serves quite a few areas that are beyond a comfortable walking distance to the nearest station/s.

Having said that, I have a vague recollection of a plan for an express bus network in London that was floated by the GLC some time in the late 70s / 80s, which never came to anything.

Having caught the X68 (from Croydon) there seems to be at least some demand even from Croydon for the through bus to central London (presumably because it costs only £1.50). It seemed as if it was full before it reached Beulah Hill (which I understand to be the area it is intended for).

I wonder whether more people would catch buses from outer into central London if the prices were at the £1.50 level (although the hopper fare means that some one-change journeys are now possible for the same fare from far out. However, given the capacity of the bus relative to the train service could buses actually take enough strain off the rail / underground network anyway?

The other problem of course is that South (central) London simply doesn't have the kind of road network which makes express bus services possible.

 

[Abpj17]

No - as everyone else says, the traffic is just far too bad with the exception of some shorter runs and if you get off/switch to tube somewhere around the inner ring road type areas e.g. hammersmith, baker street etc. The minute it travels into zone 1 (or arguably even zone 2) it's horribly slow.

And if you live in outer and you need to switch to the tube...you might as well catch tube/overground from outer london instead.

Greenlines/express coach only really work for the airports and major tourist cities now, and peak hour commuting because of the huge price differential. By the time you get to outer london, season ticket prices are significantly cheaper than the shires. Of my 5k a year season ticket.. 4k of that is national rail from 30 miles out; 1k is zones 1 - 6 underground (tho with gold card discount).

 

[duncanp]

Other routes from the outer suburbs (At least Zone 3) into Central London (Zone 1) are:-

29 : Wood Green - Trafalgar Square
48 : Walthamstow - London Bridge
55 : Leyton - Oxford Circus
56 : Whipps Cross - Smithfield
113 : Edgware - Marble Arch

I am sure there are others too.

But traffic delays are the main reason why services have been split and curtailed.

The 53 was mentioned earlier. It used to terminate at Parliament Hill Fields on the edge of Hampstead Heath, and the 38 (Clapton - Victoria) at one time used to go all the way to Chingford, with a summer Sunday extension to Epping Forest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

X43 from Potters Bar / Muswell Hill (1990s)

Truthfully, Muswell Hill/Crouch End is probably the only area where an express bus into town could still work. If I was able to get a seat on the 43 I normally stayed on it to Angel rather than braving the Northern Line at Highgate or Archway. The 91 similarly has pretty decent loadings, and the W7 is normally crush loaded from Crouch End. An express version of the 43 or the 91, non-stop from Archway, would be lovely. But really nothing else would be worth it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Truthfully, Muswell Hill/Crouch End is probably the only area where an express bus into town could still work. If I was able to get a seat on the 43 I normally stayed on it to Angel rather than braving the Northern Line at Highgate or Archway. The 91 similarly has pretty decent loadings, and the W7 is normally crush loaded from Crouch End. An express version of the 43 or the 91, non-stop from Archway, would be lovely. But really nothing else would be worth it.

The *one* that exists, meanwhile, is the X68, isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FWIW, if you played the German model you'd have very few regular city buses (other than night buses) penetrating central London at all - but you would have high-quality express buses (Schnellbusse) with a premium fare to manage loadings.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The *one* that exists, meanwhile, is the X68, isn't it?

Yes, with a similar reason to why I think an express from Muswell Hill would work: it goes through communities nowhere near a train station.

 

[Busaholic]

No-one has mentioned London's longest (daytime) route the X26, probably because it goes nowhere near Central London, but it not only continues but is about to be double-decked. I would say 'upgraded to double deck' but I doubt the seating will be as comfortable as on the Citaros previously used, and that is a major consideration on a route that length. BoJo, iirc, had plans to extend this type of radial express to other areas, but I expect he was slapped down by TfL, not without reason. The X26, for anyone not aware of its precursors, is basically the western half of what was Green Line route 726, which itself was a relatively modern variant of the 725, which plied between Gravesend and Windsor. The service between Dartford and Croydon was always the most intensive with up to 4 coaches per hour in the peak, although RF single-deck coaches were all that could be used because of Shortlands (and Chislehurst Arch, into the 1960s). The X26 once extended beyond Croydon to Bromley, but, sadly, traffic congestion saw an end to that, as any cutbacks were always at that end, partly because of the garage allocation. One of the reasons for 725/726 popularity through until the 1980s was that there was no other route that 'covered the gap' at Chislehurst War Memorial - Sidcup and Bromley were never linked by red bus until the advent of the 269.

 

[urpert]

Other routes from the outer suburbs (At least Zone 3) into Central London (Zone 1) are:-

29 : Wood Green - Trafalgar Square
48 : Walthamstow - London Bridge
55 : Leyton - Oxford Circus
56 : Whipps Cross - Smithfield
113 : Edgware - Marble Arch

I am sure there are others too.

Add the 176 to that list (Penge in Zone 4! to Tottenham Court Road). You could argue the 3 is unusually long by modern standards too, as is the 468 (Elephant - South Croydon - split from the 68 some time ago).

All of which also serve areas with no tubes and less than great train services to Zone 1.

There was also something in Boris' 2008 manifesto about "express bus services for the outer suburbs", and here's some analysis:

https://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2009/12/20/orbitalexpress-buses-tried-failed-canned/

 

[Busaholic]

Add the 176 to that list (Penge in Zone 4! to Tottenham Court Road). You could argue the 3 is unusually long by modern standards too, as is the 468 (Elephant - South Croydon - split from the 68 some time ago).

]

The 3 is the sole survivor of the three routes (2/b, 3 and 137) that traditionally served Oxford Street, or parts of it, from Crystal Palace. Under current proposals, the 3 will still just about do so, in the sense that Tottenham Court Road station is at the far, eastern end of Oxford Street.

The old 68 is now split into three routes, but you can do the entire journey on the 168, then the 468, by-passing the 68 altogether. Admittedly, the short section at South Croydon into the garage is no longer possible, but that is only really because Arriva would not allow Go-Ahead the right to turn there.

 

[urpert]

The 3 is the sole survivor of the three routes (2/b, 3 and 137) that traditionally served Oxford Street, or parts of it, from Crystal Palace. Under current proposals, the 3 will still just about do so, in the sense that Tottenham Court Road station is at the far, eastern end of Oxford Street.

The old 68 is now split into three routes, but you can do the entire journey on the 168, then the 468, by-passing the 68 altogether. Admittedly, the short section at South Croydon into the garage is no longer possible, but that is only really because Arriva would not allow Go-Ahead the right to turn there.

Interesting. I'm old enough to remember the 2 going all the way to Palace but had forgotten the 137. I suppose there's nowhere obvious to terminate the 3 between Herne Hill and Crystal Palace without depriving West Dulwich of its only useful bus route, hence its survival.

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting. I'm old enough to remember the 2 going all the way to Palace but had forgotten the 137. I suppose there's nowhere obvious to terminate the 3 between Herne Hill and Crystal Palace without depriving West Dulwich of its only useful bus route, hence its survival.

I know this route very well, my sister living on Croxted Road for yonks, once on the Southwark side and afterwards on the Lambeth side. When Norwood Garage was the main operator of the 3, a situation which prevailed for at least thirty years, then buses could terminate at Croxted Road and travel 'dead' to Norwood Garage via Rosendale Road. Nowadays there is a late running turning point at the roundabout at the Gipsy Hill end of South Croxted Road, which got used quite a bit when London Central ran the route from Camberwell garage but fell into disuse after Connex/Abellio ran out of Croydon. Now the 3 runs from Battersea, it should again be used, but my sister has moved so I've no personal experience: she now lives on the 417, the Crystal Palace bit of the old 137, so when I stay I can only get to Clapham Common direct, unless I want to use the N137 in the middle of the night!

 

[LewFinnis]

It is possible to pay a cash fare on National Express 007/021/022 from Eltham Green, Lewisham, New Cross, Old Kent Road and Elephant to Victoria though I doubt whether many (or any) ever do. As they can use the bus lanes (being registered as a local service over this stretch) the journey can be relatively quick. I have been on 007s which picked up pre-booked passengers in Lewisham, presumably travelling on past Victoria. There are no doubt other examples but I don't think NE ever advertise them!

 

[Bookd]

It is possible to pay a cash fare on National Express 007/021/022 from Eltham Green, Lewisham, New Cross, Old Kent Road and Elephant to Victoria though I doubt whether many (or any) ever do. As they can use the bus lanes (being registered as a local service over this stretch) the journey can be relatively quick. I have been on 007s which picked up pre-booked passengers in Lewisham, presumably travelling on past Victoria. There are no doubt other examples but I don't think NE ever advertise them!

I have an old National Express Guide (now very out of date) which included fare tables; at that time the Natex coach from, say, Blackfriars to Victoria was cheaper than the 11 bus but I don't suppose that the driver would be very happy if anyone tried to buy a ticket!

 

[urpert]

Occasionally the TfL journey planner will throw up (e.g) the Oxford Tube as an option for a journey like Victoria - Holland Park. I've never been tempted to try as the fare (assuming it exists) appears to be a secret.

Edit: though this page does include Hillingdon - London fares (£4 single): http://oxfordtube.com/tubefares.aspx

 

[Busaholic]

Occasionally the TfL journey planner will throw up (e.g) the Oxford Tube as an option for a journey like Victoria - Holland Park. I've never been tempted to try as the fare (assuming it exists) appears to be a secret.

Edit: though this page does include Hillingdon - London fares (£4 single): http://oxfordtube.com/tubefares.aspx

I think the 148 would have to be in freefall before many were tempted! Probably cheaper than a cab, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have an old National Express Guide (now very out of date) which included fare tables; at that time the Natex coach from, say, Blackfriars to Victoria was cheaper than the 11 bus but I don't suppose that the driver would be very happy if anyone tried to buy a ticket!

OT, but it might still be the case that the fare on the Stagey X5 from MK Coachway to central MK was quite a bit cheaper than the Arriva local fare.

 

[RJ]

Interesting. I'm old enough to remember the 2 going all the way to Palace but had forgotten the 137. I suppose there's nowhere obvious to terminate the 3 between Herne Hill and Crystal Palace without depriving West Dulwich of its only useful bus route, hence its survival.

Could have fooled me, I was instructed to turn at Gipsy Hill "South Croxted Road" a number of times during my time driving the 3

 

[RJ]

You've chosen Uxbridge as an example, but it DOES already have an express service, the 607. It may not meet your criteria, but it skips stops that the 427 and 207 serve and is consequently much quicker for a longer journey.

It is sometimes. I was a 607 driver in recent times and found that I was often overtaken, or not overtaking 207s and 427s due to;

- Service control holding me back
- Long passenger loading/unloading times at bus stops whilst the non-express buses were in and out quickly
- Congestion making the average travel speed only marginally quicker, almost the same as the non-express routes
- Poor quality bus priority on the Uxbridge Road which actually slow the buses down when the road is clear and are ineffectual when the road is congested. Not using them usually meant a quicker journey and is probably why I was faster than other drivers on the same route (hence the regulation).

I've been to other European cities where there is high quality bus priority - such as dedicated bus lanes wide enough for buses to proceed along safely. Express routes actually work as they have a decent clearway, something there's no room for in London. Many bus lanes are too narrow for buses to proceed along when there's traffic in the outside lane. Parking restrictions are lax and increasing numbers of cyclists slow things down. Without adequate bus priority in an overpopulated city, express routes are an inefficient use of resources. You'll just get people paying £1.50 to travel long distances, whilst those at sites along the way are denied access to the service. Even the 607 had stops added in a few years back to relieve some capacity issues at certain stops outside of town centres.