New Metrolink routes after second city crossing.

[HSTEd]

Trams are 'premium' public transport
Students mainly do 'cheap', they are not a market that is likely to pay; they'll stick to the bus.

However trams are more efficient in very high traffic scenarios.
And the air quality problems on Oxford Road are pretty big - you can feel the pollution from all the heavy diesel engines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They could have kept the old trams, painted them blue and called them Magic Trams, with lower fares!

Blue and yellow surely when making a Magic Bus comparison.....

 

[nerd]

However trams are more efficient in very high traffic scenarios.
And the air quality problems on Oxford Road are pretty big - you can feel the pollution from all the heavy diesel engines.

Arguable HSTEd.

Suppose it depends what criterion of 'efficiency' is being applied:

- space efficiency; moving maximum amount of people and goods within available road space;
- energy efficiency; moving maximum amount of people and goods per unit energy input;
- cost efficiency; moving maximum amount of people and goods per unit cost (either total cost, or operational cost);
- environmental efficiency; moving maximum amount of people and goods with minimum environmental footprint;
- system network efficiency; maximising integration and through travel across the wider public transport and bike lane network.

May well be others.

Given that the big flows here are from Fallowfield to the Education Precinct/CMH via Rusholme; my own view is that the eventual long-term solution will likely be some form of high-capacity, low speed, articulated bus - probably battery powered. Would this have good environmental efficiency? Might meet concern over diesel fumes; but what might be the impact for replacement and disposal of batteries? How might it otherwise compare with a tram?

Clearly a tram solution would have problems of space efficiency in relation to servicing the shop/restaurant units along the Curry Mile. Also likely less than optimal in terms of cost efficiency; trams operationally function better along corridors where trips are longer, speeds are higher, and stops more widely spaced. And there may well be issues of network efficiency; mixing tram lines and high-use bike lanes along the same corridor has commonly been regarded as bad practice; especially as many bike users seem to regard traffic regulations as suggestive guidance rather than as binding restriction.

 

[childwallblues]

Just found this thread. Interesting.

 

[PR1Berske]

Cars (access only) and trams can certainly share a piece of road. That's one of the reasons for having trams in the first place. Buses of course could be banned specifically.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's only a fantasy because TfGM are nervous of turning a commercial bus operation into a tram line requiring of subsidy. It's otherwise perfectly feasible, and would have a positive regeneration benefit of some of the rougher areas, too.

The other place to stick one would be down the A6 to Stockport, though that would be harder to keep cars out of the way.

It's a fantasy because Oxford Road is too narrow, too necessary a bus route, and too busy with cross Manchester traffic.

 

[Starmill]

I've often wondered what effect implementing a local tax on parking within a defined radius of the city centre might have on traffic levels along corridors like Oxford Road, Stockport Road, East Lancs Road, Oldham Road, Bury New Road, Ashton Old Road etc etc. It probably wouldn't work very well now - parking at places like Rochdale, East Didsbury, Horwich Parkway, Whitefield, Newhey etc would probably need to increase, and the fleet of buses would need to be of a higher standard across the country to tempt people onto them. Live departure boards at bus stops, better evening and night services (more like the tram) and speedier boarding for buses would probably take the load nicely. The revenue from the tax could be used to invest in further Metrolink work. Congestion charging would probably work better but seems too difficult to implement in a city where everyone apparently loves their car.

 

[HSTEd]

It's a fantasy because Oxford Road is too narrow, too necessary a bus route, and too busy with cross Manchester traffic.

It isn't particularily narrow and the bulk of the busses don't stray far from the route from end to end.
And the bus routes that stay on or near the Oxford Road would simply be rendered obsolete by the tram.

The only real crunch points are the Curry Mile and what you do when you get down to Owen's Park.

Given that the big flows here are from Fallowfield to the Education Precinct/CMH via Rusholme; my own view is that the eventual long-term solution will likely be some form of high-capacity, low speed, articulated bus - probably battery powered. Would this have good environmental efficiency? Might meet concern over diesel fumes; but what might be the impact for replacement and disposal of batteries? How might it otherwise compare with a tram?

I would be somewhat concerned about the charging times required of the buses considering how intensively they are used - especially with all the stop start driving and the likelyhood in future that we will be expecting air con on buses.
They are running flat out all day with little time for recharging and I am not sure the batteries would cope.

Capacity would also be a big issue since even articulated busses come out at lengths shorter than available to the tram (imagine fixed formation articulated trams the size of double units).

Clearly a tram solution would have problems of space efficiency in relation to servicing the shop/restaurant units along the Curry Mile. Also likely less than optimal in terms of cost efficiency; trams operationally function better along corridors where trips are longer, speeds are higher, and stops more widely spaced. And there may well be issues of network efficiency; mixing tram lines and high-use bike lanes along the same corridor has commonly been regarded as bad practice; especially as many bike users seem to regard traffic regulations as suggestive guidance rather than as binding restriction.

The curry mile here is the major bottleneck - and really it might be feasible to split it and run Northbound via the Curry Mile and southbound down via Birchields Park, extending into a loop closing at Owen's Park.
You could certainly fit one line down the mile.

EDIT:
My actual preferred solutions are either a low cost one utilising a trolleybus system with minimal changes to the existing road layouts - or a high cost one that consists of a CityVAL
I realise we will never get the latter although it would be the best option with regards to capacity along the uni corridor and consumes effectively no valuable road space.

 

[Chester1]

It is a very popular bus route and is currently in a very expensive smart route upgrade. Why would the Combined Authority want to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a replacement? Capacity is another issue with trams down Oxford Road. A frequency needed to match the current bus capacity would be 20tph there is barely capacity after Trafford Park line completion for another 5tph.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It isn't particularily narrow and the bulk of the busses don't stray far from the route from end to end. And the bus routes that stay on or near the Oxford Road would simply be rendered obsolete by the tram.

The only real crunch points are the Curry Mile and what you do when you get down to Owen's Park.

May I ask if you have seen such an aspirational project in any forward planning documentation for the Manchester Metrolink in official papers from TfGM. I am interested in the infrastructural costs you feel would be attached to this project and the time period of full construction for this project, if you have that information.

There also the matter of the bus services that you state would be rendered obsolete as the distances currently between the existing bus stops would surely be far less than the proposed tram stops, looking at the Metrolink East Manchester Line as a prime example of a line that runs along main roads.

 

[HSTEd]

May I ask if you have seen such an aspirational project in any forward planning documentation for the Manchester Metrolink in official papers from TfGM.

It is oft suggested to them but often slapped down as not "being inkeeping with the long term plan" or similar. Eventually they proposed this rather questionably useful bus priority scheme to shut people up.
Although it doesn't really deal with the core of the issue - current transport provision in the corridor is woefully inadequate and will certainly become more so once the higher density reconstruction of Owens Park eventually commences. Especially as there is talk of abandoning Whitworth Park hall and concentrating the vast majority of University of Manchester students on the OP complex. [I am better informed of the internal wranglings of the university than I am of TfGM's antics thanks to being at the uni for nigh on a decade now]

I am interested in the infrastructural costs you feel would be attached to this project and the time period of full construction for this project, if you have that information.

Unfortunately all I have is ill informed speculation using exemplars for standard other projects.
Ofcourse if money was no object the curry mile is only ~800m end to end, you could simply tunnel under it with a station at each end. But I think routing one track via Hathersage Road and Birchfields Park is the more viable alternative, then making the Curry Mile one way for access only.

There also the matter of the bus services that you state would be rendered obsolete as the distances currently between the existing bus stops would surely be far less than the proposed tram stops, looking at the Metrolink East Manchester Line as a prime example of a line that runs along main roads.

Well this would clearly not be exactly like the other tram lines - custom at peak times would probably swamp any of the existing routes as they are currently configured.
I would envisage stop spacings of ~400m in the Northern section running through the University (which would be only single lane access, similar to how it will be after the bus priority scheme is completed, but with the bus lanes replaced by the tram lines). However you have a more typical ~800m stop density in the section between the Owens Park cluster and the University cluster (so no stops on the mile itself and none south of Curry-Mile South until you reach OP).

Many of the intermediate stops are actually far more lightly used than some of the others and could tolerate being dropped.
You would also have a spur into the Man Met campus allowing sufficeint trams to be scheduled on the crucial university-OP segment without overwhelming the centre of the system. It would be running enormously intensively. This also relieves the 141 more closely.

It is a very popular bus route and is currently in a very expensive smart route upgrade. Why would the Combined Authority want to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a replacement? Capacity is another issue with trams down Oxford Road. A frequency needed to match the current bus capacity would be 20tph there is barely capacity after Trafford Park line completion for another 5tph.

The Combined Authority should never have squandered the money on a bus upgrade that will make little difference in the long run - it still tries to squeeze too many buses through the bottleneck, you will just arrive at the Union load/unload chokepoint and the Curry Mile bus chokepoint even more quickly!
Indeed, but how many of the trams would actually run into the centre? You could spur them off into the fancy new Man Met campus which would allow the University traffic to decouple from the traffic into the centre - and the busses are normally relatively empty by the time they get all the way up there.
You would want to run 30 trams, mostly doubles, per hour for much of the day.

I have been trying to work out a proper solution to the traffic problems that doesn't involve dismantling the university and moving it to Jodrell Bank, but short of a very expensive tram scheme with a Curry Mile tunnel, a loop or even a Funitel/3S ropeway I have come up with nothing. And Funitel is out now the Air Line was such a debacle.
[A 3S Ropeway is a little less absurd than it seems, if it ran in a single jump it could manage the ~2230m straight line between the vicinity of the main Owens Park bus stop and the vicinity of the Students Union building in five minutes flat - all day, every day. That would take the sting out of the bus service if it was priced competively, since it would be quick and more importantly reliable.]

 

[radamfi]

Utrecht are in the process of converting a ridiculously frequent bus route to the university, which already enjoys comprehensive priority, to a tram line because the buses can no longer cope. Even though the buses are 25 metre long, double-articulated and operate open boarding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Hool_AGG300

 

[Altfish]

I don't think Oxford Road is a good idea; if you wish to have a tram servicing the university it would be better going down one of the parallel streets.
Higher Cambridge Street is probably the best option.

 

[nerd]

It is oft suggested to them but often slapped down as not "being inkeeping with the long term plan" or similar. Eventually they proposed this rather questionably useful bus priority scheme to shut people up.
Although it doesn't really deal with the core of the issue - current transport provision in the corridor is woefully inadequate and will certainly become more so once the higher density reconstruction of Owens Park eventually commences. Especially as there is talk of abandoning Whitworth Park hall and concentrating the vast majority of University of Manchester students on the OP complex. [I am better informed of the internal wranglings of the university than I am of TfGM's antics thanks to being at the uni for nigh on a decade now]

Unfortunately all I have is ill informed speculation using exemplars for standard other projects.
Ofcourse if money was no object the curry mile is only ~800m end to end, you could simply tunnel under it with a station at each end. But I think routing one track via Hathersage Road and Birchfields Park is the more viable alternative, then making the Curry Mile one way for access only.



Well this would clearly not be exactly like the other tram lines - custom at peak times would probably swamp any of the existing routes as they are currently configured.
I would envisage stop spacings of ~400m in the Northern section running through the University (which would be only single lane access, similar to how it will be after the bus priority scheme is completed, but with the bus lanes replaced by the tram lines). However you have a more typical ~800m stop density in the section between the Owens Park cluster and the University cluster (so no stops on the mile itself and none south of Curry-Mile South until you reach OP).

Many of the intermediate stops are actually far more lightly used than some of the others and could tolerate being dropped.
You would also have a spur into the Man Met campus allowing sufficeint trams to be scheduled on the crucial university-OP segment without overwhelming the centre of the system. It would be running enormously intensively. This also relieves the 141 more closely.



The Combined Authority should never have squandered the money on a bus upgrade that will make little difference in the long run - it still tries to squeeze too many buses through the bottleneck, you will just arrive at the Union load/unload chokepoint and the Curry Mile bus chokepoint even more quickly!
Indeed, but how many of the trams would actually run into the centre? You could spur them off into the fancy new Man Met campus which would allow the University traffic to decouple from the traffic into the centre - and the busses are normally relatively empty by the time they get all the way up there.
You would want to run 30 trams, mostly doubles, per hour for much of the day.

I have been trying to work out a proper solution to the traffic problems that doesn't involve dismantling the university and moving it to Jodrell Bank, but short of a very expensive tram scheme with a Curry Mile tunnel, a loop or even a Funitel/3S ropeway I have come up with nothing. And Funitel is out now the Air Line was such a debacle.
[A 3S Ropeway is a little less absurd than it seems, if it ran in a single jump it could manage the ~2230m straight line between the vicinity of the main Owens Park bus stop and the vicinity of the Students Union building in five minutes flat - all day, every day. That would take the sting out of the bus service if it was priced competively, since it would be quick and more importantly reliable.]

Some interesting points there HSTEd; maybe a few numbers will help clarify the issues.

We know that there were 283 regular bus services through the Education Precinct in 2016 in the morning peak. These carried around 5,000 passengers into the city centre. To these must be added the peak period passengers on these buses getting off at the Education Precinct/Central Manchester Hospitals. The data we have on bus travel into the Education Precinct is more than 10 years old; but uprating to 2016 we can estimate peak period bus patronage into the Education Precinct as around 7,000. So total Oxford Road peak public transport demand is around 12,000; or 6,000 per hour. This translates to an average of 43 per bus over the peak (which is rather less than the counterpart peak occupancy rate of 46 per bus for the 192 service along Stockport Road). Some services do get very crowded; but that seems to be a function of students commonly travelling to get to lectures 'on-the-hour'; they could easily get up half an hour earlier and find plenty of space.

6,000 per hour is a lot for a bus route; but not exceptional for a tram route - once 2CC network is running, peak period passengers along the Cornbrook viaduct will be around double this. But the problematic point in terms of TfGM's 2040 strategy - what you term "being in keeping with the long term plan" - is that most of these trips are too short for Metrolink's economic model. The majority of daily peak bus trips into the Education Precinct (around 4,000 of them) start in Fallowfield or closer - a distance of less than 3km. Even at peak, trams running in lines along Wilmslow Road south of the Fallowfield would be half empty, and run at a loss. So fares would have to be high enough along the 'profitable' section to cross-subsidise the unprofitable sections further out. In current money that would likely imply single tickets £1.50 - £2.00. Whereas we know that the bus operators can run this route at a profit with single tickets at £1.00 each.

Hence TfGM's strategy statement:

The characteristics of the different public transport modes mean that each has strengths which make it best suited to particular travel markets. Bus, with its frequent stops, is best suited to serving shorter distances (up to around 6 kms), in dense urban areas. It provides direct travel into city and town centres and to major employment areas as well as access to rapid transit stations and stops, via interchanges. Over longer distances, (6-50kms) rapid transit offers significantly faster journey times than bus, while rail, with a limited number of stops, is the best option for long distance journeys. In planning new infrastructure and services, our aim is to make the best use of public funding by prioritising the modes which best serve a particular market.

This is the key point; there is no public value in shifting travellers from buses to trams on short distance routes, or in general in shifting passengers from one public transport mode to another; trams are optimised instead for attracting travellers out of private cars for longer trips, a task in which they have been are highly successful. But very few people commute into the Education Precinct from Fallowfield daily by car. So running a tram along Oxford Road would use up precious cross-city tram route capacity to no public benefit.

Where there may well be a benefit; would be in converting bus routes to battery power, rather than diesel. Longer distance bus routes (as for example the Leigh Busway) will not be economic for battery operation in current technology, as it will be impossible to run a full day on a single charge; but low-speed short distance high usage bus routes would be ideal for conversion - and the Oxford Road route ticks most of the right boxes. Possibly a high capacity service running through from Owens Park to Salford Uni; using 'Sprint' style articulated multi-door buses limited to a low maximum speed and hence able to carry the majority of passengers standing up. In my view it would even enable a significant reduction in those 283 peak period services, freeing up cross-city road capacity - but that bit is still speculative.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think Oxford Road is a good idea; if you wish to have a tram servicing the university it would be better going down one of the parallel streets.
Higher Cambridge Street is probably the best option.

Agreed. One other downside of Oxford Rd is that I can't imagine it being anything other than staggeringly disruptive to build (including to those very same bus routes)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Many of the intermediate stops are actually far more lightly used than some of the others and could tolerate being dropped.

Why should any existing bus stop along the said route be terminated? Would you be saying that there are no passenger needs for such stops in a scenario that so exists at this moment in time.

Noting your statement that there are many of these threatened bus stops along the said route, perhaps you could research on that very matter and put your findings to TfGM for discussion as part of their on-going bus strategy. Perhaps the Manchester Evening News would be interested in "many bus stops along the route being possibly discontinued" as part of a transport discussion process and see how local councillors and the electorate at large would view such a proposal.

 

[Nym]

Agreed. One other downside of Oxford Rd is that I can't imagine it being anything other than staggeringly disruptive to build (including to those very same bus routes)

Kind of like the current cycle lane scheme? Since even post works, the road is no longer wide enough for two busses to pass effectively, or pull out part distance down the length of the bus stops?

 

[HSTEd]

Why should any existing bus stop along the said route be terminated? Would you be saying that there are no passenger needs for such stops in a scenario that so exists at this moment in time.

Well there a couple of bus stops between Owens Park and the Curry Mile that I can remember being on a bus stopping at them maybe 20 times in 9 years.
And that is travelling on the route a couple of hundred times a year.

There is no problem with regards bus journey time extensions with them in place using the current scheme, but they are unlikely to justify tram stops or similar should some sort of additional transport scheme be created.

The advantage of that ropeway concept is that it would be a simple point to point link and there would be nothing to stop the bus route continuing in service as required.

 

[daodao]

Well there a couple of bus stops between Owens Park and the Curry Mile that I can remember being on a bus stopping at them maybe 20 times in 9 years.
And that is travelling on the route a couple of hundred times a year.

It depends on the time of day. The bus stops closest to Old Hall Lane and Grangethorpe Road used to be very busy in the late afternoon with schoolchildren (recalling my memory from 50 years ago).

 

[HSTEd]

Also I suppose you might be able to skip stop them - although that would put serious constraints on capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also I suppose you might be able to skip stop them - although that would put serious constraints on capacity.

On the Manchester Metrolink system, do you have any official quotable source that says skip-stopping has ever been a considered option? To my memory, only the short time period prior to the closure of Woodlands Road when Abraham Moss was established is the only operational example of tht.

 

[HSTEd]

On the Manchester Metrolink system, do you have any official quotable source that says skip-stopping has ever been a considered option? To my memory, only the short time period prior to the closure of Woodlands Road when Abraham Moss was established is the only operational example of tht.

No I don't - but it could help alleviate the problem of short bus stop spacings (circa ~400m) by having trams stopping at every second stop, since most people would simply walk if they were only planning to travel 400m.

 

[Starmill]

I can't see how passing platforms at 10mph would help much over just calling there. Unless an avoiding line is to be built for non-stopping trams of course.

 

[HSTEd]

I can't see how passing platforms at 10mph would help much over just calling there. Unless an avoiding line is to be built for non-stopping trams of course.

That is a serious problem which is why I have come to the conclusion that a tramway on Oxford Road becomes incredibly hard to actually make function.

Which is why I have examined alternative technologies.
400m Stop spacing rail systems have been done elsewhere though - they just have lower average speeds.

 

[edwin_m]

In the unlikely event a tramway was ever built on Oxford Road, it might be easier to use low-floor rather than high-floor trams as the platforms are much easier to fit in confined street environments. Obviously this means they wouldn't be able to run in passenger service to existing Metrolink platforms, but as the city centre network is full there is little scope for them to do so anyway. It could be a uni-to-uni route terminating at Salford Crescent.

 

[Altfish]

In the unlikely event a tramway was ever built on Oxford Road, it might be easier to use low-floor rather than high-floor trams as the platforms are much easier to fit in confined street environments. Obviously this means they wouldn't be able to run in passenger service to existing Metrolink platforms, but as the city centre network is full there is little scope for them to do so anyway. It could be a uni-to-uni route terminating at Salford Crescent.

With 2CC opening shortly I don't believe the city centre system will be 'full' anymore.

 

[djpontrack]

In the unlikely event a tramway was ever built on Oxford Road, it might be easier to use low-floor rather than high-floor trams as the platforms are much easier to fit in confined street environments. Obviously this means they wouldn't be able to run in passenger service to existing Metrolink platforms, but as the city centre network is full there is little scope for them to do so anyway. It could be a uni-to-uni route terminating at Salford Crescent.

That sounds interesting, having a separate line with lowfloor trams. It would have to have an interchange tram stop with the rest of network to allow through journeys to be made.

 

[nerd]

That sounds interesting, having a separate line with lowfloor trams. It would have to have an interchange tram stop with the rest of network to allow through journeys to be made.

Some US systems have distinct 'streetcar' and 'LRV' lines; the former running slower services with shorter vehicles with a higher proportion of the route in mixed traffic.

Which might be what what is being proposed along Oxford Road; but frankly, I cannot see what such a system might offer that could not be done cheaper and with less disruption by high-capacity articulated battery buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not wishing to rain on anybody's parade, but a number of contributors to this thread have made assumptions that the next line following the Metrolink Trafford Park Line would be that of a Manchester inner-city-core line at the expense of a line which takes the Manchester Metrolink system into the more outer areas of Greater Manchester such as Middleton and Heywood.

A cursory glance of the current Manchester Metrolink system shows already existing tram stops at both Withington and at Burton Road in the area of one of thread-proposed posting submissions.

The Metrolink Trafford Park line is one that will take some years to be completed and we surely will have to see how post-Brexit developments may affect any future expansion of the system.

 

[185143]

It depends on the time of day. The bus stops closest to Old Hall Lane and Grangethorpe Road used to be very busy in the late afternoon with schoolchildren (recalling my memory from 50 years ago).

And they still are

 

[edwin_m]

With 2CC opening shortly I don't believe the city centre system will be 'full' anymore.

They will still be terminating the airport route at Deansgate-Castlefield, which suggests to me that they don't want to feed any more into the centre.