new northern advance tickets

[woody505]

loads of northern advances starting in Januaryon York blackpool route not seen northerm promoting them yet too many too list them all
York -blackpool £12
leeds -blackpool £9
York-Bradford £5.50
Bradford-blackpool £7.50
leeds preston £7

 

[Puffing Devil]

Same thing turned up on the Crewe-Manchester line last year. Not published, though they will show up on booking sites.

I use them 80% of the time now, booking a couple of returns if I'm unsure of my exact return time. One outward and two returns is £6, opposed to an Off Peak Return at £10.30.

 

[Hadders]

Personally I'd prefer 'Northern Only' walk on tickets to Advance tickets. My view is that Advance tickets should only be sold on genuine Inter City services.

 

[kieron]

With the exception of York-Bradford, Northern already price "via Burnley" tickets on all of the flows woody505 mentioned.

 

[gray1404]

Personally I'd prefer 'Northern Only' walk on tickets to Advance tickets. My view is that Advance tickets should only be sold on genuine Inter City services.

I think a combination of Northern Advance tickets for those able to stick to specific trains and Northern Only walk up tickets for some routes for which Northern is not the primary fare setter would work. (I earlier on today started a thread questioning if this might be possible on the 'overpriced' Liverpool - Manchester flow).

 

[northwichcat]

Doing a quick check nothing it appears nothing new has been introduced for the Buxton, Mid-Cheshire and Clitheroe services but pretty much all the other hour plus routes out of Manchester have a variety of Advance tickets available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I'd prefer 'Northern Only' walk on tickets to Advance tickets. My view is that Advance tickets should only be sold on genuine Inter City services.

I agree. There seems little point in Advances on relatively high-frequency regional services. People just don't plan their journeys to that extent.

I'd *actually* prefer no TOC specific tickets at all on this kind of flow, and reasonable pricing of interavailable ones. For example, at MKC, we have a VT and LM only fare to London (an unusual situation based on the fare-setter having changed) which are within pennies of each other. So, if you set the interavailable fare somewhere between that and its current rate and did away with the TOC-specific ones, revenue would be about the same but passenger convenience would be increased.

 

[bb21]

Shhh, you'll anger all the bargain basement fare hunters with this type of sensible thinking.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So, if you set the interavailable fare somewhere between that and its current rate and did away with the TOC-specific ones, revenue would be about the same but passenger convenience would be increased.

Revenue wouldn't be the same though. With a TOC-specific fare, that TOC gets all of the revenue (less the retailer's commission). With an interavailable ticket, it's apportioned through ORCATS/LENNON, so they need to sell more tickets to make the same amount of money.

 

[woody505]

Excluding sowerby bridge, cross gates, east garforth, micklefield and church Fenton there seems to be advances on journeys on this route above about 50 mins between any two stations

 

[gray1404]

Are the Northern advances only offered on one leg, point to point journeys? Or can anyone find any offering connections on multiple leg journeys?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Revenue wouldn't be the same though. With a TOC-specific fare, that TOC gets all of the revenue (less the retailer's commission). With an interavailable ticket, it's apportioned through ORCATS/LENNON, so they need to sell more tickets to make the same amount of money.

If you take the premise that in this case the price on both TOCs is near-enough the same (give or take about 50p, and I don't even think the same TOC is cheapest on all fares) then people will choose whichever train is more convenient (be that the next one, be that the one with a later return journey, be that the fastest one, or be that totally random) without regard to price. That being the case, ORCATS should apportion the revenue near enough exactly the same way as the sales of the near-equally-priced TOC-specific tickets would.

So the TOCs would get the same amount of money as now, give or take that the new interavailable fare would need to be *slightly* above the existing TOC specific fares, because some people at present buy the interavailable tickets to be able to use a different TOC in each direction.

And a load of pointless complexity would be removed from the system. Just have an Anytime Single/Return, an Off Peak Single/Return, an Off Peak Day Single/Return (same restrictions) and an Off Peak Day Travelcard. Then more people will use TVMs and you save costs on the booking office to boot.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think a combination of Northern Advance tickets for those able to stick to specific trains and Northern Only walk up tickets for some routes for which Northern is not the primary fare setter would work. (I earlier on today started a thread questioning if this might be possible on the 'overpriced' Liverpool - Manchester flow).

I can't see it working for Liverpool-Manchester because of other journeys that would be possible where prices are already similar and Northern probably get the majority (if not all) of the revenue anyway.

I agree. There seems little point in Advances on relatively high-frequency regional services. People just don't plan their journeys to that extent.....

Northern claim it raises money they normally wouldn't get, but quite how this can be true for Manchester-Blackpool or Manchester-Bradford I don't know.

I'm also aware of regular commuters who do use these fares for their daily commutes, buying a week at a time.

Are the Northern advances only offered on one leg, point to point journeys? Or can anyone find any offering connections on multiple leg journeys?

I don't know of any being set where a journey would require a change of train, I only know of those on specific 'lines of route'. For example there are Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Leeds Advance fares, but as far as I know, there are none from Liverpool to Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm also aware of regular commuters who do use these fares for their daily commutes, buying a week at a time.

Actually, having said that nobody plans regional journeys to the specific-train level...the one class of people who do are commuters. But then these Advances must surely be abstracting from season ticket revenue.

 

[Polarbear]

Doing a quick check nothing it appears nothing new has been introduced for the Buxton, Mid-Cheshire and Clitheroe services but pretty much all the other hour plus routes out of Manchester have a variety of Advance tickets available.

I've just been on the Northern website & put some dates in January into the system & it was giving me the option of AP singles on the mid-Cheshire route - and in the peak hours too!

May only be between Chester and Manchester, I didn't have time to explore the site in any detail.

 

[northwichcat]

I've just been on the Northern website & put some dates in January into the system & it was giving me the option of AP singles on the mid-Cheshire route - and in the peak hours too!

May only be between Chester and Manchester, I didn't have time to explore the site in any detail.

They added Chester to Manchester ones in soon after the CMA said it was investigating a lack of competition on that flow. However, there's no advance tickets available to/from Northwich, Knutsford or Altrincham.

Advance tickets for Chester-Manchester on the 06:59, 08:04, 15:59, 16:59 and 17:59 services is just stupid as is Manchester-Chester Advances on the 07:17, 08:17, 15:17, 16:17, 17:09 and 18:17 services. If they were Chester-Northwich/Knutsford Advances it would be OK but these trains are bursting at the seams between Knutsford and Altrincham/Stockport/Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just been on the Northern website & put some dates in January into the system & it was giving me the option of AP singles on the mid-Cheshire route - and in the peak hours too!

One small advantage of Advances is that they are ultimately granular, so if you have a "peak" train (recognising now that the "peak" is not about demand, it's about revenue maximisation and product differentiation[1]) that loads badly, e.g. against the flow or for sections of the journey, you can fill some seats on it and make a bit more money.

[1] If the peak were about controlling demand vs. supply, Friday out of Euston would not have an evening off-peak period at all (remember BR, on which SuperSavers were not valid on Fridays?), and similarly Sunday afternoon after about 2pm southbound from the North West would be Anytime only.

 

[Starmill]

Are the Northern advances only offered on one leg, point to point journeys? Or can anyone find any offering connections on multiple leg journeys?

Certainly advances from Calder Valley stations, including Manchester, to Harrogate line stations (but not York) have been available for a long time. They're very difficult to buy though, but it is possible to get the website to show you then by selecting via Hebden Bridge.

 

[TUC]

Personally I'd prefer 'Northern Only' walk on tickets to Advance tickets. My view is that Advance tickets should only be sold on genuine Inter City services.

Why? If it gets passengers a better deal what's the problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? If it gets passengers a better deal what's the problem?

It breaks the network concept and flexibility that works best for local services.

 

[Starmill]

Whoever it was asked about connections, check Carlisle -Sunderland, Meadowhall - Bradford and Madowhall - Lincoln.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

Why? If it gets passengers a better deal what's the problem?

Because Advance tickets have to be used on the booked train only. I don't believe this is compatible with a frequent urban style network. The opportunity for passengers to catch the wrong train (accidentally or deliberately is huge).

Also Advance fares do not always offer a cheaper deal. Because they're priced as singles they appear cheaper but in many cases they're little cheaper than a walk on return - with far less flexibility.

 

[kieron]

They added Chester to Manchester ones in soon after the CMA said it was investigating a lack of competition on that flow. However, there's no advance tickets available to/from Northwich, Knutsford or Altrincham.

There don't seem to be any for Chester-Stockport, either, which the provisional report gave a SLC for, but the final one did not.

I'm wondering if this could actually be to do with the planned Northern Connect service. If this leaves Chester at a similar time to the Virgin one, it would offer fairly direct competition to them which a "via Altrincham" ticket couldn't capture.

Chester-Stockport via Manchester Victoria isn't going to be fast or convenient, so there's less scope for advance tickets there. Anything between Chester and Stockport is a Northern monopoly on rail, so advance tickets aren't likely to help them.

 

[Starmill]

York to Blackpool is a pretty good service on which to sell Advance tickets, if your TOC is going for a bit of revenue management and market growth rather than just taking custom from other trains.

Imagine I want a one way ticket from Preston to Leeds. Must be pretty common, as part of a triangular journey or travelling on somewhere else, or driving or getting a lift back. They're fairly large cities and these are the direct trains between the two.

For the 1tph direct train:

SDS £19.60
CDS £17.70
Advance £9.50
Advance £8.50
Advance £8.00
Advance £7.50
Advance £7.00

Nottingham to Sheffield and West Yorkshire also fits this bill. So does Sheffield to Hull and the Yorkshire Coast and Leeds to Carlisle.

The AP NORTHERN ONLY tickets that are a bit ridiculous are Leeds to Todmorden, Macclesfield to Manchester, Garforth to New Pudsey and Meadowhall to Doncaster.

Because Advance tickets have to be used on the booked train only. I don't believe this is compatible with a frequent urban style network. The opportunity for passengers to catch the wrong train (accidentally or deliberately is huge).

Also Advance fares do not always offer a cheaper deal. Because they're priced as singles they appear cheaper but in many cases they're little cheaper than a walk on return - with far less flexibility.

Exactly, check out APs Wolverhampton - Birmingham New Street or Sheffield - Doncaster. If you're travelling when the Off-Peak Day Return is valid they are terrible value, and pretty poor value even against an Anytime Day Return.

 

[northwichcat]

There don't seem to be any for Chester-Stockport, either, which the provisional report gave a SLC for, but the final one did not.

I'm wondering if this could actually be to do with the planned Northern Connect service. If this leaves Chester at a similar time to the Virgin one, it would offer fairly direct competition to them which a "via Altrincham" ticket couldn't capture.

Chester-Stockport via Manchester Victoria isn't going to be fast or convenient, so there's less scope for advance tickets there. Anything between Chester and Stockport is a Northern monopoly on rail, so advance tickets aren't likely to help them.

Since the franchise has started Arriva has again taken on the 82 bus service between Northwich and Chester. While people wouldn't normally use the 82 bus for an end-to-end flow it is a realistic alternative for shorter journeys in to Northwich, especially given the bus stops in the town centre while the station is outside the town centre.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Actually, having said that nobody plans regional journeys to the specific-train level

I went to the Christmas market in Manchester from Halifax on Monday, before the Placebo gig at the Arena. I was happy to commit to a train, knowing roughly when I wanted to go, for the price difference (£4 vs £9.60). If the £4 single hadn't been there I'd have probably not bothered, just getting a lift later with my sister who was driving after work anyway, so Northern are £4 up on an empty train.

People know roughly when they want to go, and will commit when the price savings are sensible.

I don't agree with the idea that we should do away with Advance tickets on these routes, because the price savings are sensible.

 

[sheff1]

Actually, having said that nobody plans regional journeys to the specific-train level....

Don't they. I must have imagined doing so for many such journeys over the last xxx years then.

 

[lejog]

The AP NORTHERN ONLY tickets that are a bit ridiculous are Leeds to Todmorden, Macclesfield to Manchester, Garforth to New Pudsey and Meadowhall to Doncaster.

Thanks, I'm a frequent purchaser of Hebden Bridge to Leeds or Manchester Advance tickets at the princely sum of £2 (with a railcard), booked the evening before. I note from 2018 Northern are going to have to offer Advance tickets up to 15mins before departure, although I doubt they'll be quite so generous with the lowest tier prices.

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I'd prefer 'Northern Only' walk on tickets to Advance tickets. My view is that Advance tickets should only be sold on genuine Inter City services.

Simpler...but more expensive. I thought you hated that?