Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[Llanigraham]

If the point of this is to restore a link between North and South Wales that wouldn't require going through England, looking at old maps shows a second link going through Radnorshire, connecting into what is now the Heart of Wales Line near Builth Wells. I assume the geography there is even worse, though?

That is the old Cambrian Railways line. Again the majority of it was single track with severe inclines and curves. Very little is now extant and what does remain has been built over in many areas, plus it passes through even less populated areas.

At the southern end it would need an extension to Abergavenny to join the Newport - Hereford line, and would need a reversal at Moat Lane Junction where it joins the current Cambrian line.

 

[Mordac]

Was that the Mid-Wales Railway from Llanidloes to Brecon?

Seems to be, it met the Cambrian line near Caersws.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is the old Cambrian Railways line. Again the majority of it was single track with severe inclines and curves. Very little is now extant and what does remain has been built over in many areas, plus it passes through even less populated areas.

At the southern end it would need an extension to Abergavenny to join the Newport - Hereford line, and would need a reversal at Moat Lane Junction where it joins the current Cambrian line.

I figured something like that would be the case, even knowing almost nothing about the area. If the goal was just to have a token North-South service, you could hook it to the HoWL and save on the southern extension to Newport, not that that would make it any more sensible.

 

[Llanigraham]

Seems to be, it met the Cambrian line near Caersws.

It became part of the Cambrian empire, but was formed of several independent companies.
I live on part of it! (literally!!)

 

[Mordac]

It became part of the Cambrian empire, but was formed of several independent companies.
I live on part of it! (literally!!)

Rest assured I'm not advocating the destruction of your house to resurrect this line!

Found it's Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway

Love the fact that it had a station named Three Cocks Junction. I wonder how many more amusingly named stations were lost due to Dr. Beeching!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Rest assured I'm not advocating the destruction of your house to resurrect this line!

Found it's Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway

Love the fact that it had a station named Three Cocks Junction. I wonder how many more amusingly named stations were lost due to Dr. Beeching!

A good number , "Trouble House Halt" being a favororite ......


(Three Cocks was a local inn - still there - Georgian I reckon)

 

[D1009]

Rest assured I'm not advocating the destruction of your house to resurrect this line!

Found it's Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway

Love the fact that it had a station named Three Cocks Junction. I wonder how many more amusingly named stations were lost due to Dr. Beeching!

A good number , "Trouble House Halt" being a favororite ......


(Three Cocks was a local inn - still there - Georgian I reckon)

That would be a subject for another thread which would be far more interesting than this one.

 

[Llanigraham]

Rest assured I'm not advocating the destruction of your house to resurrect this line!

Found it's Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Wales_Railway

Love the fact that it had a station named Three Cocks Junction. I wonder how many more amusingly named stations were lost due to Dr. Beeching!

There is no hope in hell chance of them knocking my house down!! Much too much of the line has disappeared here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A good number , "Trouble House Halt" being a favororite ......(Three Cocks was a local inn - still there - Georgian I reckon)

One of my favourites that closed in 1967, sitated on the line of the former GER Ipswich to Ely line, seems quite apt in these days of young female obese fast-food lovers wearing the obligatory skin-tight lycra legging bottoms....Six Mile Bottom

 

[Gareth Marston]

There is no hope in hell chance of them knocking my house down!! Much too much of the line has disappeared here.

Depends where you are Graham there's sections of it with the ballast still down and gangers huts intact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was that the Mid-Wales Railway from Llanidloes to Brecon?

Moat Lane Junction is what your looking for.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4318101

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2028276

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Moat Lane Junction is what your looking for.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4318101

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2028276

Earlier in the thread, Mordac referred to Builth Wells, but as far as I can see, in that area, the Mid-Wales Railway and the Central Wales Extension Railway (aka Heart of Wales line) were on different levels with a high-level station and a low-level station

 

[Llanigraham]

Depends where you are Graham there's sections of it with the ballast still down and gangers huts intact.

I did say "here" Gareth, which is true of Llanidloes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Earlier in the thread, Mordac referred to Builth Wells, but as far as I can see, in that area, the Mid-Wales Railway and the Central Wales Extension Railway (aka Heart of Wales line) were on different levels with a high-level station and a low-level station

They were, but there was a short inclined branch between the two, on the north west side.
Marked "Loop line" here.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101604743

 

[Envoy]

It was once possible to get from Cardiff/Newport to the line through the middle of Wales by going via Torpantau - which had the highest tunnel in Britain. In fact - that is the place where the Brecon Mountain Railway currently terminates.http://www.breconmountainrailway.co.uk

From Torpantau, the line descended to Talybont-on-Usk - where you still still see the solid stone station building - which is now an outdoor pursuits centre. From here, the line went to the 3 way junction at Llanfihangel Tal-Y-Llyn from where the west route went to Brecon. The other route went NE to 3 Cocks Junction from where an easterly route went to Hereford. The other route went north up the Wye Valley. (The Craft Centre at Erwood is the old railway station).

The route went under the HofW line at Builth Road - which had platforms on different levels. Then it proceeded to Rhayader and St.Harmon - roughly following the B4518 to Llanidloes. It joined the present Cambrian line at Moat Lane Junction near Caersws.

Have a fun day out everyone trying to follow the route! (See if you can make it out on Google Earth).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Earlier in the thread, Mordac referred to Builth Wells, but as far as I can see, in that area, the Mid-Wales Railway and the Central Wales Extension Railway (aka Heart of Wales line) were on different levels with a high-level station and a low-level station

It was a mile and half from the town of Builth Wells and called Builth Road. The Cambrian was on the low level and had two platforms, the Central Wales on the upper with two platforms. There was a lift between them. Built Road is still open on the Heart of Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did say "here" Gareth, which is true of Llanidloes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They were, but there was a short inclined branch between the two, on the north west side.
Marked "Loop line" here.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101604743

Yes the A470 bypass is on the formation for about 2 miles around Llani - should be easy to restore the line by closing the road- all the shopkeepers in Llani complained it killed passing trade when it was built anyway.


The connection at Builth Road stayed to the end. For some reason the engine shed for the Mid Wales Line was at the higher level.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2169586

 

[Mordac]

Earlier in the thread, Mordac referred to Builth Wells, but as far as I can see, in that area, the Mid-Wales Railway and the Central Wales Extension Railway (aka Heart of Wales line) were on different levels with a high-level station and a low-level station

As Llanigraham already alluded to, there was a chord connecting the two. I was looking at a 1920s OS map (available for free from the National Library of Scotland here: http://maps.nls.uk/ ) and that didn't specify the names and companies, so all I could see was two connecting railways, and had to let the forum's collective wisdom help with the rest.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As Llanigraham already alluded to, there was a chord connecting the two. I was looking at a 1920s OS map (available for free from the National Library of Scotland here: http://maps.nls.uk/ ) and that didn't specify the names and companies, so all I could see was two connecting railways, and had to let the forum's collective wisdom help with the rest.

further info Bulith Road Low Level goods stayed open and connected to high level till September 65 some 33 months after the Mid Wales line closed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Enjoyable though this diversion is from the main trunk route discussion from Aber to Carmarthen , the one time Mid Wales line from Moat Lane to Brecon via Llandidloes and Three Cocks , probably carried even less traffic than the Aber line. Very little through freight - bar 2 exceptions - Welsh coal for the Scapa Flow based fleet in WW1 (known as "Jellicoe" specials - and cement in the early 1960's for the Clyweddog dam construction.

Apart from that , it was a deeply rural line - admittedly of some charm - more staff than passengers if the truth be known.

At least the Carmarthen line had some long distance milk flows to that there London.

 

[CardiffKid]

Has any consideration been given to what freight could be carried on the line?

There is a small oil depot in Aberystwyth and wood has been carried on the Cambrian line about ten years ago.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Has any consideration been given to what freight could be carried on the line?

There is a small oil depot in Aberystwyth and wood has been carried on the Cambrian line about ten years ago.

The source of the oil traffic to Aber - which dissapeared in BR days . was Stanlow which now has no rail forwarding facilities (I think the flow was only one "short" train a week in any case)

There were some timber trials - and like much of the ex SRA's much vaunted freight innovation strategy , came to nothing , - basically the value of the soft wood timber and the trans shipment and double haulage costs (road- rail) make the economics highly dubious unless you have large quantities to move , ideally to a rail connected private siding , preferably over 200 miles away. (which Chirk is not !)

When BR did wagonload traffic into Aber in the 1970's , it was only 3 days a week and was domestic coal and fertiliser anyway. Both declining traffics even then - and more so now with differing heating sources and less inputs to the soil.

 

[Llanigraham]

Has any consideration been given to what freight could be carried on the line?

There is a small oil depot in Aberystwyth and wood has been carried on the Cambrian line about ten years ago.

The oil depot is no-where near the railway in Aber.
The wood traffic headed north and wasn't successful due to the double handling needed and pressure from the road haulage lobby locally. There is very little commercial forestry on the Aber - Carmarthen route.

 

[CardiffKid]

The oil depot is no-where near the railway in Aber.

Unless it's moved it's right next to the track. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...a5c3bb5f10ceeb8b!8m2!3d52.4126811!4d-4.078958)

The wood traffic headed north and wasn't successful due to the double handling needed and pressure from the road haulage lobby locally. There is very little commercial forestry on the Aber - Carmarthen route.

OK, but wood from Mid Wales could still use the line No?


Is there scope for any other kind of fright? (Genuine question by the way)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Unless it's moved it's right next to the track. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...a5c3bb5f10ceeb8b!8m2!3d52.4126811!4d-4.078958)



OK, but wood from Mid Wales could still use the line No?


Is there scope for any other kind of fright? (Genuine question by the way)

I struggle to think of any credible sources of freight - there is not a huge population and the inwards flows of consumer goods etc - are relatively smal and part of a complex logistics chain based on non served rail depots in England I suspect. (such that a lorry from say the Brum area will do multiple drops in a range of Mid-Wales towns)

Showing my age - when Aber had a parcels "depot" in the mid 1970's a surprising amount of mail and parcels came in by rail and there were "BR" vans carrying out local deliveries - much of the inwards stuff for then then operational Woolworth's came by passenger train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Unless it's moved it's right next to the track. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...a5c3bb5f10ceeb8b!8m2!3d52.4126811!4d-4.078958)



OK, but wood from Mid Wales could still use the line No?


Is there scope for any other kind of fright? (Genuine question by the way)

The shell oil depot rail siding was mothablled in 1993 after the last train. Its still "rail connected" albeit with saplings in the sleepers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The oil depot is no-where near the railway in Aber.
The wood traffic headed north and wasn't successful due to the double handling needed and pressure from the road haulage lobby locally. There is very little commercial forestry on the Aber - Carmarthen route.

The local hauliers had a huge strop even though it was shown to be a cost neutral flow.

 

[Llanigraham]

Unless it's moved it's right next to the track. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...a5c3bb5f10ceeb8b!8m2!3d52.4126811!4d-4.078958)

OK, but wood from Mid Wales could still use the line No?

Is there scope for any other kind of fright? (Genuine question by the way)

The oil depot is not rail connected, has retail units around it, has poor road access, and doesn't appear to be used very much.

Most of the timber now being extracted around here is from Hafren Forest plus smaller amounts from other forestry stands. It goes to either Chirk or Newbridge on Wye. Chirk is the only one rail connected, but all loads need double handling and it was found quicker to just load in the forest and deliver straight to the depot. Newbridge is not rail connected.
Most of the timber produced is either used for fibre or fencing; it is not high quality. There are no loading facilities at Aber, or anywhere else on the line.

As has been said, there is no industry in this area, so what freight do you expect to be found? I suppose you could send a container every couple of days for the Tesco supermarkets, but that is about it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If it was non-stop via the Swansea District line, (or stopped Port Talbot, Morriston and Llanelli), what's the shortest time it could be done in a 125? I've no idea what the linespeeds are.

No idea about a 125, but I think the fastest 158/175 timings for each leg add up to about 1hr 23mins between Cardiff and Carmarthen at the moment (calling at Llanelli and Port Talbot only, so add Morriston and you're probably looking at about 1hr 25min). I've no insider knowledge though, so the 2 minutes for the extra stop is raw guesswork.

Linespeeds are never above 100mph in Wales, and west of Cardiff there's only a short strech of that. Even with instant acceleration a 158 would probably only lose a few seconds compared to a 175.

 

[krus_aragon]

As Llanigraham already alluded to, there was a chord connecting the two. I was looking at a 1920s OS map (available for free from the National Library of Scotland here: http://maps.nls.uk/ ) and that didn't specify the names and companies, so all I could see was two connecting railways, and had to let the forum's collective wisdom help with the rest.

Wikipedia has a fine collection of Railway Junction Diagrams, including this one of central Wales c.1914: (click for larger image)

 

[6Gman]

One of my favourites that closed in 1967, sitated on the line of the former GER Ipswich to Ely line, seems quite apt in these days of young female obese fast-food lovers wearing the obligatory skin-tight lycra legging bottoms....Six Mile Bottom

My Latin teacher, an East Anglian, claimed that was the English translation of arsa longa.

It isn't!

 

[Pacerpilot]

Here we go again...
I think the timescale and budgets quoted are somewhat optimistic.

http://m.southwales-eveningpost.co....vice-by-2022/story-30149630-detail/story.html

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Here we go again...
I think the timescale and budgets quoted are somewhat optimistic.

http://m.southwales-eveningpost.co....vice-by-2022/story-30149630-detail/story.html

This is what happens when fresh news for the newspapers to report is in short supply, so the obligatory "wheeling-out of old news for new" becomes de rigeur..:roll:

 

[PeterC]

Showing my age - when Aber had a parcels "depot" in the mid 1970's a surprising amount of mail and parcels came in by rail and there were "BR" vans carrying out local deliveries - much of the inwards stuff for then then operational Woolworth's came by passenger train.

The University generated a lot of traffic in students' luggage as well. The availibility of the service meant that you didn't need to use "dad's taxi".

 

[Oxfordblues]

I well recall in the early-1960s travelling with my grandmother from Cardiff to Criccieth when I was about 10 years old. There was a morning coach to Aberystwyth connecting with the afternoon bus from there to Criccieth. It was half the price of rail travel and didn't take much longer. The rail option required changes at Swansea, Carmarthen, Aberystwyth and Dover Junction: too challenging for my grandmother!