• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

Status
Not open for further replies.

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
Nonsense. If you structure a contract properly then of course it can be done.

Great Western is currently a short term contract of a few years, yet they are introducing three fleets of new trains (IEPs, AT300s and Electrostars).

The IEP is being procured by the Department for Transport. The add-on AT300 orders are made very simple by the fact that all the hard work had been and was already being done by the IEP procurement. The commuter EMUs were to have been cascaded away from Thameslink by the 700s, and when plans changed it was just a matter of ordering more of the train they were already going to get from the ROSCO rather than planning and introducing a new fleet.

Beyond EGIP the new ScotRail franchise holder also had to work out plans for the long distance fleet. While a short contract could plausibly have been able to get some off-the-shelf EMUs used elsewhere into service, that simply wouldn't have been possible for a then-unique fleet of shortened 2020-compliant HSTs, or a new fleet of LHCS. While the EGIP spec was pretty definitive it was up to the bidders to come up with the best plans for the long distance services. Without the guarantee of some return on investment no operator would have invested in a completely new fleet of trains in a configuration that had never been used before. XC's short contract just means upgrading and using more intensively the fleet of HSTs it already has and is already able to use. The equivalent for ScotRail would have been a refurb of the 170s, as was expressly allowed in the ScotRail franchise tender documents.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,314
Location
Bolton
The East Kilbride line has seen no frequency improvements despite more people using the line . Only really the 0018 service on Friday nights .

It does have extra trains at 1701 and 1720 (which runs fast to Clarkston!) and then at 1803. That's in addition to a 4/6 car services and a regular 2tph timetable.

Corresponding morning express from EK at 0742, plus extra trains, PLUS the FO 0018 from Glasgow Central. Slightly odd that they don't run that Saturday night / Sunday morning if you ask me but there we go.

One of the best suburban services...
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
From today's Sunday Herald, and a follow up to Humza's recent summit.

So two possible models: Caledonian MacTrain or, good heavens, what appears to be management by hippie commune.

The future of Scotrail? A co-op run by workers and passengers

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...trail__A_co_op_run_by_workers_and_passengers/

THE SNP Government is looking at putting Scotland’s railways into a co-operative, with workers and passengers taking charge of the service as part of a possible plan for a publicly owned train network.

A source close to Scotland's Transport Minister Humza Yousaf revealed the option for the future of rail after the government staged a summit with trade unions, officials, pressure groups and politicians.

The Sunday Herald previously reported that a model ministers are understood to have in mind for rail renationalisation is based on CalMac Ferries Ltd (CFL), which describes itself as a “wholly-owned subsidiary of David MacBrayne Ltd, which is wholly owned by Scottish ministers”.

Yousaf has said that formal engagement would begin in the New Year to look at creating a public sector bid for future ScotRail franchises amid ongoing criticism of performance under current operator Abellio.

The Scottish Government has faced repeated calls to strip Abellio of the ScotRail franchise it was awarded last year in a 10-year deal worth up to £6bn but with the option for the Scottish government to cancel it at the halfway point.

However, Yousaf is under growing pressure to commit to renationalisation of rail and was repeatedly pressed on the issue at the rail summit.

Last night, a source close to Yousaf told the Sunday Herald that the minister was now looking at other models of public ownership of the railways as well as the one based on CalMac Ferries.

Yousaf is understood to be sympathetic towards the idea of having the service run as a "co-operative involving workers and passengers".

However, "no firm proposals have yet been put forward", the source close to the minister said.

A similar plan has already been put forward by the train drivers' union ASLEF for a railway in Scotland that is "owned by and for the people of Scotland".

Under proposals set out by the union, a not-for-profit train company would seek to give employees and passengers a say in how the railway is run. The policy proposals were drawn up in 2013 by rail policy expert Professor Paul Salveson in a report entitled ScotRail: A People's Railway for Scotland.

Kevin Lindsay, Scottish Secretary of ASLEF, speaking after the talks with Yousaf, said: "We're happy to look at a not for profit co-operative that brings rail into public ownership.

"We're not opposed to the CalMac option, but the objective had to be to get a publicly owned rail service that stops dividends being paid out. It also has to be properly funded."

However, other rail unions such as the RMT and the Transport and Salaried Staffs Association (TSSA) stated their preference at the talks with Yousaf for a publicly owned train service that comes under the authority of ministers, that would be similar to the CalMac model.

Yousaf was urged by Mick Hogg of the RMT union to look at such an option as well as an "in-house" model of a "social railways" that would be run by Transport Scotland, but would involve worker and passenger representatives.

Hogg, the RMT Scotland organiser, said: "The CalMac option ticks the box for us, but we'd also like to explore an in-house service."

However, all the rail unions have expressed opposition to having a public sector-private partnership to run the railways due to concerns it would leave the current operator in charge of services.

Sam Tarry, TSSA national political officer said: "The Scottish Government has talked about the talks being historic, but they will only be historic if we begin the process towards getting a publicly owned railways."

Stephen Boyd, assistant secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, who also took part in the talks, added: "We want a viable proposal that's going to work."

Abellio has said that it is "completely committed to the ScotRail franchise and investing in one of the most significant programmes of upgrade and modernisation since the railway was built".
 

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
Scotrail slammed as new figures show that nearly half of East Kilbride trains are late


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/scotrail-slammed-new-figures-show-9371492

Needless to say, there's no 1st class section or buffet trolley on the clattery old rolling stock

been a 20mph TSR at Muirhouse South Junction for over 2 years now. This adds at least a 2 min delay onto any GLC - EK service. Lack of action by NR is the main cause of delays, but also long dwell times due to pax numbers and lack of rolling stock.
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
ScotRail is hoping to ease its acute overcrowding by drafting in more trains from south of the border.

ScotRail is considering acquiring up to another three three-carriage electric trains as a stop-gap measure.

However, ScotRail has drawn a blank in its Britain-wide quest for more trains on diesel routes, which are under even greater pressure.

Abellio, which runs ScotRail, ordered 70 new trains when it won the franchise two years ago, but the first of its two fleets will not start arriving until next autumn, and the second is now delayed until the second half of 2018

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...-in-more-trains-to-cut-overcrowding-1-4308327
 
Last edited by a moderator:

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
It does have extra trains at 1701 and 1720 (which runs fast to Clarkston!) and then at 1803. That's in addition to a 4/6 car services and a regular 2tph timetable.

Corresponding morning express from EK at 0742, plus extra trains, PLUS the FO 0018 from Glasgow Central. Slightly odd that they don't run that Saturday night / Sunday morning if you ask me but there we go.

One of the best suburban services...

Yet still inadequate for the number of passengers on the route. EK is a big town with lots of commuting potential. Traveling by train is often preferable to driving because there's no direct fast road from Glasgow to EK (you have to go to Hamilton and up the M74 - and with the works going on that must be a horrid journey). And that's before you add in the south side stations that the trains serve.

It could seriously do with a major upgrade. 4tph throughout the day with 6 car EMUs in the peaks is not at all unreasonable for EK. It's probably the most needed upgrade in Greater Glasgow. Certainly would be much more useful than a tram train to the airport.
 

Southsider

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
937
It could seriously do with a major upgrade. 4tph throughout the day with 6 car EMUs in the peaks is not at all unreasonable for EK. It's probably the most needed upgrade in Greater Glasgow. Certainly would be much more useful than a tram train to the airport.

Agreed. I don't think Shotts should have been electrified before EK from the point of view of satisfying passenger need. Also, the 156s are not suited to the route; the dwell time at stations is far too long.
The non stop to and from Clarkston have been around for a number of years.
 

aylesbury

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
622
Reading the submissions by Transport For Scotland as to the future of railways in Scotland makes me very worried.If this comes to fruition who will sanction new trains,new electrification,and more importantly who will sanction maintainence of track etc.Control by committee is a very popular vote catching ploy but usually means no descions made.Abello should be left to get on with running the railway and put in place all works as per the franchise.
 

route101

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,303
Agreed. I don't think Shotts should have been electrified before EK from the point of view of satisfying passenger need. Also, the 156s are not suited to the route; the dwell time at stations is far too long.
The non stop to and from Clarkston have been around for a number of years.

Yeah EK should of been already electrified !
There used to be Busby -Central and a return service and a service that missed out Crossmyloof / Pollokshaws West.
2318 is a bit early i think for a service to one of Scotlands biggest towns . And if theres a 0018 on Friday night there should be one on Saturday night .
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
Nonsense. If you structure a contract properly then of course it can be done.

Great Western is currently a short term contract of a few years, yet they are introducing three fleets of new trains (IEPs, AT300s and Electrostars).

Yes, it can be done, but it's at a cost. There's no doubt that a DA would have cost TS a lot more than the new franchise for the same delivery.
 

route101

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,303
Yet still inadequate for the number of passengers on the route. EK is a big town with lots of commuting potential. Traveling by train is often preferable to driving because there's no direct fast road from Glasgow to EK (you have to go to Hamilton and up the M74 - and with the works going on that must be a horrid journey). And that's before you add in the south side stations that the trains serve.

It could seriously do with a major upgrade. 4tph throughout the day with 6 car EMUs in the peaks is not at all unreasonable for EK. It's probably the most needed upgrade in Greater Glasgow. Certainly would be much more useful than a tram train to the airport.

Driving to Glasgow that way , there must be people that do it. A lot of people go on the new A726 road to join the M77 and head in that way . Also at East Kilbride and Hairmyres if the trains are disrupted there is no nearby bus services to town!
I think 3 trains an hour wouldnt be unreasonable. But wheres the stock going to come from and an extra loop will have to be constructed.
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
Yet still inadequate for the number of passengers on the route. EK is a big town with lots of commuting potential.

With the continuing white and blue-collar job losses in EK, commuting to Glasgow is the only way residents can find work. It's no wonder that the limited station parking at Hairmyres has become overwhelmed and there's no room for expansion at the station, plus EK station itself is hemmed in on all sides.

The smart thing to do would have been to create a new Parkway station on derelict land, with ample parking and allow passing after Tesco abandoned plans to build on that site. Too late now, as I believe that land has been allocated to mixed-use.

hmy2.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
Driving to Glasgow that way , there must be people that do it. A lot of people go on the new A726 road to join the M77 and head in that way . Also at East Kilbride and Hairmyres if the trains are disrupted there is no nearby bus services to town!
I think 3 trains an hour wouldnt be unreasonable. But wheres the stock going to come from and an extra loop will have to be constructed.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Plenty of people must travel from EK to Glasgow and will use a combination of the M77, M74 and A749 depending on where they're going. But none of the routes are great. The most direct route is slow and painful, yet the faster roads take a big detour.

By contrast, Coatbridge for example has the M8 as a direct route to most of Glasgow (albeit a busy road), and the M74 is also accessible with a minimal diversion (although miserable at the moment with roadworks).

The reality is that the train can become a very attractive option for EK. A 30 minute end to end rail journey is very attractive compared to potentially one hour drive in rush hour traffic. A 15 minute service frequency would probably be very well used, as I say not just by EK but also Clarkson and Giffnock pax.

Yes, it's an investment. You'll need to at least put a loop in place (better actually doubling all the way to the terminus TBH). The 385s are coming, and I don't know if they're all accounted for yet, but if more are needed it's presumably relatively easy to add on an order in the next few years (Abellio have already got ten orders conditional on them getting a franchise extension).
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
East Kilbride is to be upgraded in CP6, with electrification following the track changes that will allow a 4tph service. In the meantime, it seems unlikely that there will be any real changes other than lengthening as many of the services as possible.

Shotts had to be done before EK so that all of the non-Forth Bridge/Borders services in Edinburgh could go EMU and use the new depot at Millerhill. The few 385s used on Cathcart Circle services will easily be able to interwork with Shotts and Carstairs services to get back to the depot.
 

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,326
The Sunday Mail is not to be outdone, it has an article which begins:

"ScotRail are about to introduce trains that are so old, the engine has been on display in a museum."

Lolz.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
The Sunday Mail is not to be outdone, it has an article which begins:

"ScotRail are about to introduce trains that are so old, the engine has been on display in a museum."

Lolz.

Where to start with what's wrong with that statement...

Let's go for the obvious. The engine that's on display (presumably a Valenta engine) is no longer in use. In fact, the trains have been so extensively refurbished that they're going to be very much new trains. And I expect they'll do a smashing job.
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,253
Where to start with what's wrong with that statement...

Let's go for the obvious. The engine that's on display (presumably a Valenta engine) is no longer in use. In fact, the trains have been so extensively refurbished that they're going to be very much new trains. And I expect they'll do a smashing job.

I think they're referring to 43002 which spent all of a day at the National Railway Museum in October... possibly making the statement even more ridiculous.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,867
I think they're referring to 43002 which spent all of a day at the National Railway Museum in October... possibly making the statement even more ridiculous.
Has anyone pointed out to them that Caledonian Sleepers are using locos currently where the newest of the class has also been in a museum?

(I'm referring to 66779)
 

Class 170101

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,662
PLUS the FO 0018 from Glasgow Central. Slightly odd that they don't run that Saturday night / Sunday morning if you ask me but there we go.

I expect that has more to with NR and their engineering access. By the time that train gets back to the nearest depot I imagine it will be well afetr 01:00 on Sunday morning.

How many 172s are used on the GOBLIN?

Eight. :P

I would argue perhaps it might be better for TfL to take 319s in the short term as an interim measure between the wiring being completed and their new trains being available to allow the 172s to head to Scotland temporarily - as part of increasing capacity across the whole network.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,515
I would argue perhaps it might be better for TfL to take 319s in the short term as an interim measure between the wiring being completed and their new trains being available to allow the 172s to head to Scotland temporarily - as part of increasing capacity across the whole network.

No monitors on the GOBLIN platforms so probably unsuitable
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,615
What would the 5 GwR trains have been? Surely not early HSTs?

180s?

At the risk of going off topic, ScotRail not being successful securing 8x LO 172s suggests some other TOC has been successful...
 

route101

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,303
Where there's a will, there's a way. Plenty of people must travel from EK to Glasgow and will use a combination of the M77, M74 and A749 depending on where they're going. But none of the routes are great. The most direct route is slow and painful, yet the faster roads take a big detour.

By contrast, Coatbridge for example has the M8 as a direct route to most of Glasgow (albeit a busy road), and the M74 is also accessible with a minimal diversion (although miserable at the moment with roadworks).

The reality is that the train can become a very attractive option for EK. A 30 minute end to end rail journey is very attractive compared to potentially one hour drive in rush hour traffic. A 15 minute service frequency would probably be very well used, as I say not just by EK but also Clarkson and Giffnock pax.

Yes, it's an investment. You'll need to at least put a loop in place (better actually doubling all the way to the terminus TBH). The 385s are coming, and I don't know if they're all accounted for yet, but if more are needed it's presumably relatively easy to add on an order in the next few years (Abellio have already got ten orders conditional on them getting a franchise extension).


Probably the quickest way is via the Carmunnock Bypass and castlemilk /Hampden .
Wonder what EMUs would be used on the EK line? New orders or existing , thats even if it will be elctrified in CP6 whenever that is.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Probably the quickest way is via the Carmunnock Bypass and castlemilk /Hampden .
Wonder what EMUs would be used on the EK line? New orders or existing , thats even if it will be elctrified in CP6 whenever that is.

The follow on order of 10 extra 385s if the Scotrail Franchise is renewed seem the obvious choice for EK electrification. No doubt a larger order could be negotiated if required.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
The mention of the Class 172s (even if not by the class number in the statements/reports) is curious, given the need for DMUs is "now" and the LO fleet isn't available till May 2018 (because that's when the 710s will be ready for service.
 

amcluesent

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Messages
877
Probably the quickest way is via the Carmunnock Bypass and castlemilk /Hampden

That comes to standstill every morning due to the awful design of junction 1A on the M74
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top