Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[najaB]

Arguably they shouldn't have sold the shares in the first place, but whether or not central government wishes to retain a stake in a railway company, publicly funded assets such as rolling stock shouldn't be allowed to be destroyed on the whim of a TOC for commercial reasons.

So should the Government have paid to buy them back from Eurostar and then paid additionally to store them in the off chance that someone, at some point in the future, wanted to use twenty year old stock to run services through the Channel Tunnel but didn't already have suitable stock?

 

[yorksrob]

So should the Government have paid to buy them back from Eurostar and then paid additionally to store them in the off chance that someone, at some point in the future, wanted to use twenty year old stock to run services through the Channel Tunnel but didn't already have suitable stock?

They should have forced Eurostar to make them available to other users for a specified period. Then, if no takers, let them sell to the scrappers.

Actually, I'm coming to the view that rolling stock should be owned alongside the infrastructure and be available for whichever TOC comes into power in the area (although I recognise that this might not work for an international set up like Eurostar).

 

[najaB]

They should have forced Eurostar...

And the legal basis for this compulsion would be?

 

[CosherB]

They should have forced Eurostar to make them available to other users for a specified period. Then, if no takers, let them sell to the scrappers.

Actually, I'm coming to the view that rolling stock should be owned alongside the infrastructure and be available for whichever TOC comes into power in the area (although I recognise that this might not work for an international set up like Eurostar).

Bring back British Rail. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Bring back British Rail. :roll:

I'm not sure you could bring back BR, but I certainly believe the dissolution of BR at privatisation was a major policy mistake.

As far as today is concerned, you could have my idea of rolling stock ownership with a nationwide network of PTE type organisations owning rolling stock rather than ROSCO's

 

[507021]

Does anyone have a list of which 373s have been withdrawn so far please?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Roast Veg]

hi where can you get a view of knighton junction? is this the just south of leicester one???

There are quite a number of lines around the Knighton and Ayelstone area. If you approach Leicester from the north but want to get onto the frieght line to Burton (as the working last night did), then you have to run around just south of the junction since the points are against you. There is a length of line for this express purpose on the east side of the MML, almost all of which is on a viaduct.

I stood at the roundabout on the east side of the arch through which Knighton Lane East goes, and had a decent view looking up at the viaduct, since there's only a safety fence there through which I could see plenty.

I took some ultra low quality photos and videos while I was there, but the lighting is terrible.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have just seen, leading up to 23:05 on 02/12/2016, at St Pancras. Loco 66767 backing down on to a Eurostar pair at St Pancras platform five about 22:00. The Eurostar half sets 373020 to the North with 373019 to the South looked quite grubby and out of use with some graffiti. The coupling arrangement is made of lots of bits supported on the ends of the 66s buffers and pulled back onto the draw bar/hook. I watched about six engineers assemble it at the North end of platform five after the 66 arrived about 22:00. By 23:05, when I left, the 66 was coupled to the Eurostar with two air/brake/whatever pipes. So looked ready to go.

Yes - so the original information about which set it was turned out to be correct after all.

 

[notverydeep]

And the legal basis for this compulsion would be?

While at first sight this idea would seem like interference in the workings of the 'market', there is a precedent. In the late 1990s, EWS started to scrap their ex BR locos without offering any for sale. Because the then government wished to encourage 'on rail' competition between freight operators, they imposed a requirment on all such operators to dispose of surplus rolling stock by open tender. This enabled others, such as DRS, Fragonset, HNRC and others to get hold of ex EWS loco at lower cost than new loco and use them in competition with EWS.

All TOCs, including Eurostar, are regulated and so the legal basis for forcing EWS was presumably from the ORR. To require Eurostar's surplus trains to be sold in this way might be possible, but not considered necessary by the ORR or DfT. Alternatively it may be that to do so would require the agreement of the French Author ties because of the treaties covering the tunnel.

 

[Roast Veg]

I would imagine there being a huge amount of fuss generated by Alstom or SNCF had a demand for public sales occurred, despite the intellectual property being ancient now they seem extremely eager to keep the TGV within their reach right the way through the life cycle, particularly with all this nonsense about scrapping them in secret like nobody is going to notice. Heaven forbid Siemens should come along with a newer, shinier product for the same market that renders their design obsolete!

 

[najaB]

While at first sight this idea would seem like interference in the workings of the 'market', there is a precedent. In the late 1990s, EWS started to scrap their ex BR locos without offering any for sale. Because the then government wished to encourage 'on rail' competition between freight operators, they imposed a requirment on all such operators to dispose of surplus rolling stock by open tender. This enabled others, such as DRS, Fragonset, HNRC and others to get hold of ex EWS loco at lower cost than new loco and use them in competition with EWS.

The result of doing this would have been Booths/EMR buying them at scrap value as I can't see any operator clamouring for the 373s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would have thought the sensible, allowing competition route, would be for the Eurostars to be owned by a Rosco. I would not want them owned by one particular route(s) as that limits the chances of re-use.

But then I arrive at the next set of problems. The 373s are no longer ideal for Channel Tunnel operations because of their small shape designed for the UK loading gauge which is no longer necessary. So the 373s could be used for UK only services like the ECML did. But (and its in other threads from years ago) the 373s were not ideal. They are too long but also allegedly cause damage the the UK OHLE. They could be used on 3rd rail routes but I will never suggest that as my beloved 442 are far more suitable(ish) .

In a nutshell too specific to one route but no longer a necessary for that route because the sacrifice of internal space is no longer necessary since HS1 opened.

I also suspect the Eurostar sets being scrapped are too far gone. When were they last used and how many parts have been robbed ?. Mind you it appears to me that 373019+020 made it to StPancras under their own power.

 

[najaB]

I also suspect the Eurostar sets being scrapped are too far gone. When were they last used and how many parts have been robbed ?. Mind you it appears to me that 373019+020 made it to StPancras under their own power.

I believe that both sets scrapped so far have come straight out of revenue service.

 

[sd0733]

Mind you it appears to me that 373019+020 made it to StPancras under their own power.

I presume This was the scrappers move from Temple Mills http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/J15624/2016/12/02/advanced.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I believe that both sets scrapped so far have come straight out of revenue service.

That explains peoples dismay then. It was rather grubby and I was surprised to see graffiti on one coach.

 

[Mordac]

I believe that both sets scrapped so far have come straight out of revenue service.

3019/20 certainly did not come from revenue service. It had been stored out of use for a while.

 

[1179_Clee2]

3019/20 certainly did not come from revenue service. It had been stored out of use for a while.

Platform 5's 2017 EMU pocket book has

3013/3014
3017/3018
3019/3020
3101/3102
stored in the UK

3207/3208
stored in France

 

[najaB]

3019/20 certainly did not come from revenue service. It had been stored out of use for a while.

Thanks for the correction. I was going by what had been posted earlier in the thread.

 

[tjlrailblue]

ok cheers for reply roastveg in #250

Tim

 

[Mordac]

Platform 5's 2017 EMU pocket book has

2013/2014
2017/2018
2019/2020
3101/3102
stored in the UK

3207/3208
stored in France

That's my source as well, read closer, in the first three sets you list the first digit is a 3, not a 2!

 

[Driveroopnorth]

As silly as it sounds... All the 373's for scrap HAVE to make their own way to st pancras... Surprisingly they are hardly robbed if at all!! Why i don't know.. The spare parts going begging is massive!!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

As silly as it sounds... All the 373's for scrap HAVE to make their own way to st pancras... Surprisingly they are hardly robbed if at all!! Why i don't know.. The spare parts going begging is massive!!

not quite sure why you are being shocked that vehicles in store haven;t been parts recovered especially the period ofstorage is fairly short asd the 373 fleet was reduced with the arrival of 374s and the need to firstly take those being refurbed out for trfurbishment ...

but then again logical thought and reality against crayoning and wibble ...

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes, I think they would have an interest in this. Particularly in a comparatively undeveloped market such as UK - Europe railway services.

In all fairness the reason that it remains a comparatively undeveloped market is because its often quicker and cheaper to fly than take the train.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As silly as it sounds... All the 373's for scrap HAVE to make their own way to st pancras... Surprisingly they are hardly robbed if at all!! Why i don't know.. The spare parts going begging is massive!!

It is of course possible that parts recovery is part of the dismantling process. Stripping them there means they don't need dragging to St. Pancras.

 

[59CosG95]

It is of course possible that parts recovery is part of the dismantling process. Stripping them there means they don't need dragging to St. Pancras.

They may well only have had one power car with parts in, just for the journey over from Temple Mills.

 

[notverydeep]

The result of doing this would have been Booths/EMR buying them at scrap value as I can't see any operator clamouring for the 373s.

I agree, there might be legal route to compel Eurostar to sell (as was the case with freight locos), but I presume there was little or no pressure on the competition authorities / ORR to bother from potential alternative operators.

With hindsight, the 373s turned out to be the ultimate 'niche' trains, built in far too large a number for a constraint that disappeared only just more than a decade after the tunnel opened and long before the demand assumptions justifying their building came to pass.

Those constraints presumably saddled them with unnecessary complexity and expense that was hard for Eurostar to make a business case for continuing, let alone anyone else taking on for an alternative use. GNER after all replaced their hired NOL sets with more HSTs (20 years or so older), once these became available.

The key constraint on expanding the international market to a multitude of other destinations is the requirement for full security screening ahead of the return trip and I can't see any politician signing off a relaxation of this anytime soon. Avoiding this requires either massive expense at stations to be served, or a long stop at Lille Europe that is an interchange in all but name.

It probably doesn't make any difference to the 373s future use, but I am surprised that they haven't had a look at a commuter flow from Lille / Calais into London. A season ticket plus markedly cheaper housing might have mad this a viable proposition, but with apparently no season ticket available such a flow is presumably now just a handful of people from Lille.

The tax payer could have been saved an awful lot of money had assumptions about Eurostar traffic been more realistic, but maybe they wouldn't have built the tunnel, so perhaps it was for the best (from my point of view). This point is academic now as the 'loss' to tax payers occurred at Eurostar's privatisation. Now in economic terms they are just a 'sunk cost'. Underutilised and fairly new they may have been, but I am not surprised that no other viable proposals for their use have materialised.

 

[Driveroopnorth]

It is of course possible that parts recovery is part of the dismantling process. Stripping them there means they don't need dragging to St. Pancras.

A fair point... and one i shall get the answer to!

They may well only have had one power car with parts in, just for the journey over from Temple Mills.

Nope - fully working... nothing missing... I asked the question why 2 locos couldnt got to Temple Mills and top and tail it all the way - thus negating the need for it needing to go under own power. But that is yet to be answered!!

It is Eurostar after all - they tend to do what they want...

 

[yorksrob]

In all fairness the reason that it remains a comparatively undeveloped market is because its often quicker and cheaper to fly than take the train.

True, but is this a result of high prices or because of them.

I was recently able to book return tickets from London to the Netherlands by Eorostar for £88. My travelling companions who preferred the plane could only manage £90 return without resorting to extremely inconvenient times and random regional airports.

I suspect the market is there for the right pricing structure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

True, but is this a result of high prices or because of them.

I was recently able to book return tickets from London to the Netherlands by Eorostar for £88. My travelling companions who preferred the plane could only manage £90 return without resorting to extremely inconvenient times and random regional airports.

I suspect the market is there for the right pricing structure.

A big plus is that Eurostar is city centre to city centre. No need for me to drive to Stansted/Gatwick/Heathrow/Luton and pay for parking or use another leg of public transport. That's providing Eurostar goes to the right city centre of course !. I think a lot of people do not consider the option of Eurostar. But Eurostar has taken a lot of customers away from air on the London/Paris sector I seem to recall.

 

[gsnedders]

Nope - fully working... nothing missing... I asked the question why 2 locos couldnt got to Temple Mills and top and tail it all the way - thus negating the need for it needing to go under own power. But that is yet to be answered!!

It is Eurostar after all - they tend to do what they want...

They'd need locos with TVM-430 to reach Temple Mills, and I don't know how reusable the 66 coupling adapter is (e.g., would it fit on a 92?). Or, I guess, possession of the line to run stock without.