New Trains for Northern, fGW, fTPE... But not EMT

[Pumbaa]

See here.

It also confirms that the DfT have thrown fTPE plans to extend the 185s to 4-cars. Also, Siemens aren't listed as having pre-qualified. That's buggered that one up then.

Granted Northern need new stock, well they all do actually, but hang on a second? EMT? What's happened there! Then again, we weren't expecting anything sensible from DfT...

 

[Mojo]

I guess the 158s from FGW would be sent to Northern.

It wouldn't surprise me if Bombardier got it, as they already have a unit that meets many of the requirements - the 172, plus it's the only one to be built in the UK, helping The Economy [sic] which is what Darling wants.

 

[devon_metro]

It always amazes me thecamount of time spent faffing about going to tender. Just build some new carriages for cry sake.

 

[WillPS]

Norwich - Liverpool badly needs some attention, I just hope EMT benefit through cascades.

 

[xtradj]

ftpe have just in the last year finished rolling out brand new 185 stock

so why they need new trains no1 knows!! especially when emt struggle to roll out 156 and 158's that still have regional railways alphaline logos on them!

 

[Z12XE]

EMT? What's happened there! Then again, we weren't expecting anything sensible from DfT...

They may get the 5x153s(!) displaced from NXEA if their ITT which was posted about 6 months goes ahead

 

[GNERman]

Northern might get new turbostars or something like that

 

[laseandre]

No, they'll get the Sprinters/Pacers cascaded from everywhere else, as usual.

 

[Max]

No, they'll get the Sprinters/Pacers cascaded from everywhere else, as usual.

I have actually heard from other sources that Northern are likely to benefit from new 172s. Not cascaded stock.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have actually heard from other sources that Northern are likely to benefit from new 172s. Not cascaded stock.

Perhaps they will benefit from the 172s in that they will replace the Sprinters that will pass to Northern!

Seriously though, I had heard Northerns 'new' stock was going to be 'new', although that comes from a company brief based on the government's statements. If Northern do get them, I wouldn't be suprised if they were all based in the north-east!

 

[LilLoaf]

I have actually heard from other sources that Northern are likely to benefit from new 172s. Not cascaded stock.

And they will end up on every part of the northern network but not Newcastle. We get forgot about up here in the frozen North. Hope they don't have those stupid, pathetic, annoying, pre recorded annoucements. Drives me so crazy just thinking about them.

What is wrong with the guard making annoucements ? eh

 

[John_158]

Northern's new rolling stock is to replace the 323s in Manchester which are to be cascaded to LM and replaced in the Northern Rail fleet By 315s i think from Nat Ex until the new stock is introduced.

Some of the 315s are to operate in Leeds sadly replacing the 321s which are to be cascaded to Scot rail I think the 315s apparently will have one carriage removed and added to the Leeds Stock.

Lets hope that EMT do get those 5x153s to be cascaded from NEEA but with EMT and DFT from what I gather EMT are not willing to re negotiate the franchise.

But there is nothing to stop EMT from hiring in stock from else wear as I have seen a number of ex virgin carriages in Crewe which would make at least four 3/4 car rakes top and tailed for use on Liverpool-Norwich for which i know there are speed and time issues but surely capacity vs timing capacity should take priority.

 

[507 001]

Hyundai?!?!

it will be bombardier who gets the contract, I think only because of the turbostars and voyagers etc used in the uk.

I will also be very surprised if northern gets brand new stock, at the most we might get cascaded 158's but thats it.

And they will end up on every part of the northern network but not Newcastle. We get forgot about up here in the frozen North.

same with liverpool lol. did we get 158's? no. did we get 180's? no. although i admit the 180's are only temporary so wouldnt have been worth it but i think theres services that need them more than manchester-blackpool.

 

[Max]

But there is nothing to stop EMT from hiring in stock from else wear as I have seen a number of ex virgin carriages in Crewe which would make at least four 3/4 car rakes top and tailed for use on Liverpool-Norwich for which i know there are speed and time issues but surely capacity vs timing capacity should take priority.

It's all very well saying this but I can imagine there would be many hurdles. How long is it since these carriages have been used? Also, there are few 67s spare anymore as they are currently being used much more actively than in recent years.

 

[Donny Dave]

It's stupid that Siemen's haven't qualified. They built the units for TPE anyway ....

Also, what are the DafT doing with the TPE franchise? When the new units were ordered, TPE want 56 (I think) of them, in a mixture of 3 car and 4 car formations. The DfT said you can have 51 3 car units only. Now they are to be strengthened. Anyone else as confused as me?

 

[ashworth]

Even a very small number of extra 153's (as if they haven't already got enough of these things!) for EMT could make a big difference as they are so desperately short of stock.

They are still regularly running 158's on local services from Nottingham to Mansfield/Worksop etc. when these are so urgently needed to strengthen the Norwich-Liverpool route. I had heard that some of them were now only being used on local services from Nottingham because they were so unrealiable and couldn't be trusted to go on long journeys to Norwich and Liverpool.
However, once 158's have all been refurbished etc and are hopefully more relaible then extra 153's for local services around Nottingham would allow all of EMT's 158's to be deployed on doubling up Norwich-Liverpool services.

Here's an idea that some people wouldn't like. What about EMT, as a temporary measure, having half a dozen pacers just to work on Robin Hood Line Services from Nottingham to Mansfield and Worksop. That would release 153's, 156's and 158's for use elsewhere. And I am not trying to impose these on someone else as I actually live near Mansfield and would have to travel on them on a regular basis!
They could even be operated by Northern crews based at Sheffield if that would give us a through Nottingham-mansfield-Worksop-Sheffield service!

 

[John_158]

It's all very well saying this but I can imagine there would be many hurdles. How long is it since these carriages have been used? Also, there are few 67s spare anymore as they are currently being used much more actively than in recent years.

They haven't been there long so not too shure they could be being refubished as we speek but i did see some of them at EWS Allerton a week or two ago.

 

[P156KWJ]

Even a very small number of extra 153's (as if they haven't already got enough of these things!) for EMT could make a big difference as they are so desperately short of stock.

They are still regularly running 158's on local services from Nottingham to Mansfield/Worksop etc. when these are so urgently needed to strengthen the Norwich-Liverpool route. I had heard that some of them were now only being used on local services from Nottingham because they were so unrealiable and couldn't be trusted to go on long journeys to Norwich and Liverpool.
However, once 158's have all been refurbished etc and are hopefully more relaible then extra 153's for local services around Nottingham would allow all of EMT's 158's to be deployed on doubling up Norwich-Liverpool services.

Here's an idea that some people wouldn't like. What about EMT, as a temporary measure, having half a dozen pacers just to work on Robin Hood Line Services from Nottingham to Mansfield and Worksop. That would release 153's, 156's and 158's for use elsewhere. And I am not trying to impose these on someone else as I actually live near Mansfield and would have to travel on them on a regular basis!
They could even be operated by Northern crews based at Sheffield if that would give us a through Nottingham-mansfield-Worksop-Sheffield service!

can't remember where I heard this but I'm under the impression that 14Xs are banned from Nottingham, as Northern sent 144002 or something on a test from Leeds when doing driver training, but was caped at Chesterfield.

 

[Max]

It's stupid that Siemen's haven't qualified. They built the units for TPE anyway ....

Also, what are the DafT doing with the TPE franchise? When the new units were ordered, TPE want 56 (I think) of them, in a mixture of 3 car and 4 car formations. The DfT said you can have 51 3 car units only. Now they are to be strengthened. Anyone else as confused as me?

I presume Siemens haven't qualified because of the diabolical state of the Pound vs. Euro. Trains built in Germany would be incredibly expensive at the moment. The whole issue with the original order being meddled with was a complete farce. Apparently, the 185s now can't be extended due to the power source not meeting new emissions guidelines, whilst an unpowered trailer would interfere with electrical systems.

 

[Pumbaa]

I presume Siemens haven't qualified because of the diabolical state of the Pound vs. Euro. Trains built in Germany would be incredibly expensive at the moment. The whole issue with the original order being meddled with was a complete farce. Apparently, the 185s now can't be extended due to the power source not meeting new emissions guidelines, whilst an unpowered trailer would interfere with electrical systems.

The 185s were expensive as it is. RAIL or somewhere else I read quoted it at £2m for a 185 car, compared to £1.2m for a Turbostar car.

Northern's new rolling stock is to replace the 323s in Manchester which are to be cascaded to LM and replaced in the Northern Rail fleet By 315s i think from Nat Ex until the new stock is introduced.

Where do you get this from? No it's not!! The tender is for DIESEL carriages, not electric. 315s from NXEA? You having a laugh? They are full to the brim down there, any reduction in capacity from the metro routes would be insane. There is a reason that the LM 321s are partly being cascaded to NXEA>.

 

[Donny Dave]

I presume Siemens haven't qualified because of the diabolical state of the Pound vs. Euro. Trains built in Germany would be incredibly expensive at the moment. The whole issue with the original order being meddled with was a complete farce. Apparently, the 185s now can't be extended due to the power source not meeting new emissions guidelines, whilst an unpowered trailer would interfere with electrical systems.

IIRC, Siemens have got permission to build extra carriages with the engines already used, hence the reason they stockpiled a few on the completion of the order. Perhaps someone in the know could confirm this.

 

[WillPS]

A locomotive hauled train is not suitable for the Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich route due to the soil quality beneath the tracks between Ely and Thetford, the train would be at a crawl on this (rather large) section, not to mention the lack of crews trained for anything other than HSTs, Sprinters and Meridians!

Frankly, to the average joe who uses that service 5 days a week, the differences between a 156 and an unrefurbished 158 are minimal - particularly during the winter when the air con is not so neccessary. That said, more 153s (for use on the Robin Hood Line or other shorter jaunts) would allow EMT to ensure all Norwich-Liverpool units to become (at least) 3-car 158s.

I find it strange that Pacers are outright banned from Nottingham, are they just not cleared or is there a physical limitation? Extending the Robin Hood Line to Sheffield makes sense to me though, I regularly have to change at Worksop on that jaunt and I've seen several others do the same.

 

[MCR247]

I think EMT should have msybe refurbed a few 156 quickly to a long distance and then done 158 and then doubled up a few 156's & 158's. Thats my opinion but other will have different opinions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A locomotive hauled train is not suitable for the Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich route due to the soil quality beneath the tracks between Ely and Thetford, the train would be at a crawl on this (rather large) section, not to mention the lack of crews trained for anything other than HSTs, Sprinters and Meridians!

Frankly, to the average joe who uses that service 5 days a week, the differences between a 156 and an unrefurbished 158 are minimal - particularly during the winter when the air con is not so neccessary. That said, more 153s (for use on the Robin Hood Line or other shorter jaunts) would allow EMT to ensure all Norwich-Liverpool units to become (at least) 3-car 158s.

I find it strange that Pacers are outright banned from Nottingham, are they just not cleared or is there a physical limitation? Extending the Robin Hood Line to Sheffield makes sense to me though, I regularly have to change at Worksop on that jaunt and I've seen several others do the same.

But also on that note extending the robin hood line wouldnt be possible would it because it would reverse at Worksop and are they allowed to & is it convinient to arr. Worksop, then use reversing sidings the go back to Worksop?

 

[ashworth]

I don't know if pacers are banned from Nottingham. I would have thought that they have just not been cleared south of Chesterfield. Even if they can't run down the Erewash mainline south of Chesterfield I am sure that it wouldn't be too difficult to clear them via Worksop and the Robin Hood Line.

I've been at Worksop, when Robin Hood Line trains have been late running, and they have arrived and departed from the same the platform, so it is possible to reverse there without using the reversing sidings.
A through service from Sheffield to Nottingham via this route would mainly benefit lots of passengers from stations north of Nottingham, especially the Mansfield area. Unless you are willing to endure a 45-50 minute wait at Worksop for a connection to Sheffield it is not very convenient to travel north from Mansfield without first going south to Nottingham. I am sure that Mansfield and the northern section of this line would see significant passenger growth with a faster service to Sheffield. Even just providing better connections at Worksop would be a help. No-one wants to make an almost 2 hour train journey, including wait at Worksop, for a journey that is only 45 minutes by road.

Incidently, as my local station is on the Robin Hood Line, I do not really want pacers, but would be willing to put up with them for local journeys if it helped EMT out of their stock problem and gave me a quick service convenient link to Sheffield.

 

[LilLoaf]

507001 - same with liverpool lol. did we get 158's? no. did we get 180's? no. although i admit the 180's are only temporary so wouldnt have been worth it but i think theres services that need them more than manchester-blackpool

Every single last one of the 158's went to Leeds, its madness, why not spread them out a bit ? Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

I'd be happy for Northern (my local franchise) to get some brand new DMUs, but some 165s would be nice - if FGW are getting new units (or are their "new" ones only further west to replace Pacers?)...

 

[adambro]

ftpe have just in the last year finished rolling out brand new 185 stock

so why they need new trains no1 knows!! especially when emt struggle to roll out 156 and 158's that still have regional railways alphaline logos on them!

My understanding is that the Class 185 roll out concluded in December 2006. Hardly "in the last year".

 

[TEW]

I'd be happy for Northern (my local franchise) to get some brand new DMUs, but some 165s would be nice - if FGW are getting new units (or are their "new" ones only further west to replace Pacers?)...

165s have massive clearance problems anywhere except there original operating areas due to NSE building them wider so they couldnt be used anywhere else, if they were then they would be hitting the platform edges.

 

[Mojo]

I'd be happy for Northern (my local franchise) to get some brand new DMUs, but some 165s would be nice - if FGW are getting new units (or are their "new" ones only further west to replace Pacers?)...

FGW units are for the Portsmouth - Cardiff route and for some of the Thames Valley lines (the latter I've taken from DafT press release).

 

[WillPS]

I think EMT should have msybe refurbed a few 156 quickly to a long distance and then done 158 and then doubled up a few 156's & 158's. Thats my opinion but other will have different opinions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But also on that note extending the robin hood line wouldnt be possible would it because it would reverse at Worksop and are they allowed to & is it convinient to arr. Worksop, then use reversing sidings the go back to Worksop?

Reversing at platform is certainly possible at Worksop. In the evenings, Northern services only run from Sheffield as far as Worksop, with the train pulling in to platform 2 (the "Trains for Retford and Lincoln" side) and changing direction immediately, all without the use of platform 1 (the "Trains for Mansfield, Nottingham and Sheffield" side).