EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

A by-election yesterday saw a Conservative seat go to the Lib Dems. The fact the Conservatives didn't field a candidate in the hope that Independent Conservative, Zac Goldmsith, would win the seat (rather than splitting the Conservative vote between two candidates) and yet the Lib Dems still won says a lot about public confidence in the Conservative party following the Brexit vote and them having no idea what they are going to do with regards to Brexit.

It will also make Mrs May's job harder now. She already had a small majority prior to the by-election now she has one less MP.

 

[Aldaniti]

Just under 50% of voters, who formed just over 50% of the Richmond vote, voted LibDem. No doubt after a brief period of delayed shock, the LibDems and their remain-voting supporters will collectively start to stamp their feet, declare that the by-election result is only advisory, that the majority wasn't all that big, that all LibDem voters were lied to, and that there should be a second vote.

Meanwhile, over in the constituency, Mr Farron - a politician who seems to have a look of permanent constipation on his face - seems to have taken a laxative and declared, in all seriousness, that a third of Richmond's Brexit-voting Tories switched to the Lib Dems. As the medication takes effect, he's going on to say that the by-election result is also a rejection of Mr Trump and the British 2015 General Election result.

Back in the real world.......

 

[EM2]

Just under 50% of voters, who formed just over 50% of the Richmond vote, voted LibDem.
[snip hyerbolic waffle]
Back in the real world.......

Except that this was an election, not a referendum.

 

[anme]

Just under 50% of voters, who formed just over 50% of the Richmond vote, voted LibDem. No doubt after a brief period of delayed shock, the LibDems and their remain-voting supporters will collectively start to stamp their feet, declare that the by-election result is only advisory, that the majority wasn't all that big, that all LibDem voters were lied to, and that there should be a second vote.

Meanwhile, over in the constituency, Mr Farron - a politician who seems to have a look of permanent constipation on his face - seems to have taken a laxative and declared, in all seriousness, that a third of Richmond's Brexit-voting Tories switched to the Lib Dems. As the medication takes effect, he's going on to say that the by-election result is also a rejection of Mr Trump and the British 2015 General Election result.

Back in the real world.......

While I do like to support the imaginative efforts of new writers of fiction, you are going to have to try harder if you want to find a wider audience for your work.

 

[northwichcat]

Except that this was an election, not a referendum.

Indeed. Richmond Park voted to allow Sarah Olsen to represent them in parliament instead of Zac Goldsmith. If they don't feel Mrs Olsen is doing what she promised there is a process for recalling their MP or voting for someone else in a few years time. What provision is there in place to prevent us from leaving the EU if we are unable to provide hundreds of millions extra for the NHS, introduce a points style immigration system, prevent free movement of people etc.?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A by-election yesterday saw a Conservative seat go to the Lib Dems. The fact the Conservatives didn't field a candidate in the hope that Independent Conservative, Zac Goldmsith, would win the seat (rather than splitting the Conservative vote between two candidates) and yet the Lib Dems still won which says a lot about public confidence in the Conservative party following the Brexit vote and them having no idea what they are going to do with regards to Brexit.

I see some irony. For ages, UKIP and other people on the right have been claiming that 'liberals' are ignoring people's concerns and that's why more people have been voting for groups like UKIP. And yet, ever since the referendum, many of those same people in UKIP and on the Brexit side have been completely ignoring the concerns of the almost 50% who voted remain. A responsible Government would have looked at the referendum result, acknowledged that the country was split almost down the middle, thought about what the various issues are that lead different people to vote the way they did, and sat down with people of different viewpoints with the aim of trying to come up with some consensus on how to proceed in a way that addresses the needs of the various communities in the UK. It would have been a difficult process and I'm not sure what the outcome would be, but it would have been the correct (and indeed, the democratic) thing to do.

Instead, the Government has apparently decided, in a true spirit of 'tyranny of the majority' - for all practical purposes to forget about the existence of all those who voted remain, and to run roughshod over the lives of all who'll be adversely affected by a hard Brexit. The we got more votes than you so you can go to hell kind of thinking.

There are of course many factors in the Richmond by-election result (most notably that people on the 'progressive' side are once again willing to vote tactically. But one lesson I think those on the hard Brexit side should take home is that ignoring peoples' concerns cuts both ways!

 

[Senex]

I see some irony. For ages, UKIP and other people on the right have been claiming that 'liberals' are ignoring people's concerns and that's why more people have been voting for groups like UKIP. And yet, ever since the referendum, many of those same people in UKIP and on the Brexit side have been completely ignoring the concerns of the almost 50% who voted remain. A responsible Government would have looked at the referendum result, acknowledged that the country was split almost down the middle, thought about what the various issues are that lead different people to vote the way they did, and sat down with people of different viewpoints with the aim of trying to come up with some consensus on how to proceed in a way that addresses the needs of the various communities in the UK. It would have been a difficult process and I'm not sure what the outcome would be, but it would have been the correct (and indeed, the democratic) thing to do.

Instead, the Government has apparently decided, in a true spirit of 'tyranny of the majority' - for all practical purposes to forget about the existence of all those who voted remain, and to run roughshod over the lives of all who'll be adversely affected by a hard Brexit. The we got more votes than you so you can go to hell kind of thinking.

There are of course many factors in the Richmond by-election result (most notably that people on the 'progressive' side are once again willing to vote tactically. But one lesson I think those on the hard Brexit side should take home is that ignoring peoples' concerns cuts both ways!

I do wish there were a "Like" button! All I can do is say a loud "Hear, hear" to everything you've just said.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see some irony. For ages, UKIP and other people on the right have been claiming that 'liberals' are ignoring people's concerns and that's why more people have been voting for groups like UKIP. And yet, ever since the referendum, many of those same people in UKIP and on the Brexit side have been completely ignoring the concerns of the almost 50% who voted remain. A responsible Government would have looked at the referendum result, acknowledged that the country was split almost down the middle, thought about what the various issues are that lead different people to vote the way they did, and sat down with people of different viewpoints with the aim of trying to come up with some consensus on how to proceed in a way that addresses the needs of the various communities in the UK. It would have been a difficult process and I'm not sure what the outcome would be, but it would have been the correct (and indeed, the democratic) thing to do.

Instead, the Government has apparently decided, in a true spirit of 'tyranny of the majority' - for all practical purposes to forget about the existence of all those who voted remain, and to run roughshod over the lives of all who'll be adversely affected by a hard Brexit. The we got more votes than you so you can go to hell kind of thinking.

There are of course many factors in the Richmond by-election result (most notably that people on the 'progressive' side are once again willing to vote tactically. But one lesson I think those on the hard Brexit side should take home is that ignoring peoples' concerns cuts both ways!

A lot of sense posted there.

It may be the case that something akin to the "tyranny of the majority" existed before Brexit, except it applied to the dominance of liberal thinkers in government, civil service, and big business. While not a numerical majority I think it might be worth reflecting on whether this was the case.

Brexit is ultimately a bloodied nose for those liberals (me included), with the vote decided in most instances on gut instinct, identity, or other non-factual matters. I am happy to admit I did not care much for the facts coming from either side during the campaign, and voted on the principle that it's better to be outward looking and co-operative with neighbours. Brexit is also a call from many parts of society, concerned and alienated by the pace of social, demographic and technological change.

These are issues which go beyond politics and speak to all players in society.

 

[Howardh]

A by-election yesterday saw a Conservative seat go to the Lib Dems. The fact the Conservatives didn't field a candidate in the hope that Independent Conservative, Zac Goldmsith, would win the seat (rather than splitting the Conservative vote between two candidates) and yet the Lib Dems still won which says a lot about public confidence in the Conservative party following the Brexit vote and them having no idea what they are going to do with regards to Brexit.

It will also make Mrs May's job harder now. She already had a small majority prior to the by-election now she has one less MP.

Yes, it's starting to cut into her "working" majority, and if any Tories flip side due to Brexit (Anna Soubry for one??) they could quickly be a minority.

It's certainly muddied the Brexit waters again, not that they weren't a murk before.
Just shows how split the country is.
Think the least-worst option now is for May to bribe Norway into allowing the UK to join EFTA (and remain in the EEA) which (a) might upset 48% of the country who want to remain and (b) upset the 52% who want to leave the EU/EEA and paddle their own ship - but as that makes 100% upset at least we'd be a united Kingdom again.

 

[Aldaniti]

Things seem to be going well for the new Richmond Lib Dem MP, a real car-crash interview which will keep us lazy, thick, ignorant, northern scumbags entertained for four minutes on an otherwise dismal Friday afternoon: https://youtu.be/Rn3vuKEgTbs

Hopefully plenty more to come.

Must dash, got to go and pound the cobbles in search of a crust....

 

[Johnuk123]

Things seem to be going well for the new Richmond Lib Dem MP, a real car-crash interview which will keep us lazy, thick, ignorant, northern scumbags entertained for four minutes on an otherwise dismal Friday afternoon: https://youtu.be/Rn3vuKEgTbs

Hopefully plenty more to come.

Must dash, got to go and pound the cobbles in search of a crust....

That must be one of the worst interviews of any mp of all time, she said yesterday before she was elected she had no interest in politics.
What she should have said was she is ignorant of politics.

Farron has just been on tv and flatly refused several times to deny he wants the referendum reversed which of course is no secret.

 

[northwichcat]

That must be one of the worst interviews of any mp of all time, she said yesterday before she was elected she had no interest in politics.

"A year and a half ago I wasn't involved in politics, I wasn't a member of a political party, I had never been involved in a political campaign, I had never thought about being a politician.

But I knew I was a liberal.

When I saw what happened in the general election last year I felt I had to get involved."

Not actively involved isn't the same as not interested and that was prior to joining a political party opposed to not being interested until she got her name on the ballot paper, which is what you seem to be hinting at. Using the same reasoning are the non-railway staff who post on this forum not interested in trains?

Farron has just been on tv and flatly refused several times to deny he wants the referendum reversed which of course is no secret.

He's cleverer than that. He knows if the 'Brexit deal' is put to the public in a referendum it won't satisfy a lot of people who voted Leave so he hopes a public referendum can result in the British people rejecting the 'Brexit deal' on the table and consequently making the result of the previous referendum meaningless without re-running the same referendum again.

 

[miami]

It will also make Mrs May's job harder now. She already had a small majority prior to the by-election now she has one less MP.
__________________
Some people say there should be less Grammar schools. Those who went to Grammar schools disagree as they claim it should be 'fewer' not 'less.' Hugh Dennis

I guess you didn't go to a grammar school then

 

[anme]

What exactly is wrong with a political party saying "if elected, we will overturn the result of the referendum"?

 

[miami]

Yes, it's starting to cut into her "working" majority, and if any Tories flip side due to Brexit (Anna Soubry for one??) they could quickly be a minority.

http://www.nottinghampost.com/polic...t-on-twitter/story-29952823-detail/story.html

Broxtowe MP Anna Soubry has contacted the police after a message was posted on twitter that called for someone to "Jo Cox" her.

Ms Soubry said it was not the first threat she received this week - she alleged that a man rang her constituency office in Beeston on Wednesday saying she was "going to get it like Jo Cox".

The tweet was posted by a user who misspelled Ms Soubry's name and wrote: "Someone jo cox Anna Sourby please".

Ms Soubry responded by retweeting the post and adding: "This is what has happened to our politics. Tolerance & free speech must prevail."

I'd have quoted from the daily mail, but a search for "Anny Soubry daily mail" only comes back with:

Anna Soubry accused of being 'drunk' by Tory MP as she ... - Daily Mail
Tory MP ANNA SOUBRY gives her view on Brexit ... - Daily Mail
'You're a nasty piece of work!' Former minister Anna Soubry... - Daily Mail
John Bercow launches attack on Tory minister Anna Soubry - Daily Mail

Perhaps they're too busy complaining about "Migrant Numbers hit new records", while running next to a picture of a migrant who recently died.
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People have been talking about a United States of Europe since 1946. Presumably a large portion of the population will think they are traitors to the country.

I suspect they're right, in the future I suspect a single global hegemony will emerge. Whether this is driven by corporations or by the people, how much power the rulers have and how much freedom the people have depends how we get there. I'd rather be involved in structuring it so that global issues are tackled globally, regional issues are tackled regionally, local issues are tackled locally, but by all means hide under a rock. We could always model our island after north korea I guess.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess you didn't go to a grammar school then

Correct. At the time my school claimed it was the best performing comprehensive outside the South East.

 

[Senex]

What exactly is wrong with a political party saying "if elected, we will overturn the result of the referendum"?

Absolutely nothing -- general election trumps referendum!

 

[anme]

Absolutely nothing -- general election trumps referendum!

With the big advantage that you only need maybe 36% (*) of the vote to win the election. So with 48% on board it should be easy to prevail, especially if the eurosceptic/right wing vote is split between UKIP and the tories.

Now let's see if the brexiters are still so keen on the "first past the post" system!

(*) The conservatives' share of the vote at the 2015 general election was 36.1%, of which 0% voted for the EU exit plan currently being put in place by the government because it wasn't in their manifesto.

 

[Aldaniti]

That must be one of the worst interviews of any mp of all time, she said yesterday before she was elected she had no interest in politics.
What she should have said was she is ignorant of politics.

Farron has just been on tv and flatly refused several times to deny he wants the referendum reversed which of course is no secret.

Yes John, awful wasn't it?!! No doubt she'll now be safely ensconced at LibDem HQ, practicing her lines and learning the phrases which politicians like to use to wriggle out of ligtimate but embarrassing questions; that's a situation I don't recognise, Richmond has a sophisticated electorate (i.e. not thick yokels, as trotted out by another patronising LibDem MP - Mr Carmichael - last night), the usual cobblers...

Andrew Neil had it right last night when he asked a LibDem peer - Baroness Krammer - at what point she thought the word Democrat should be removed from the party's name.

 

[AlterEgo]

Things seem to be going well for the new Richmond Lib Dem MP, a real car-crash interview which will keep us lazy, thick, ignorant, northern scumbags entertained for four minutes on an otherwise dismal Friday afternoon: https://youtu.be/Rn3vuKEgTbs

Hopefully plenty more to come.

Must dash, got to go and pound the cobbles in search of a crust....

If ever there was evidence for the balkanisation of the UK - this is it.

 

[Johnuk123]

If ever there was evidence for the balkanisation of the UK - this is it.

The irony of a Remainer saying that is quite amusing.

 

[AlterEgo]

The irony of a Remainer saying that is quite amusing.

I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Howardh]

With the big advantage that you only need maybe 36% (*) of the vote to win the election. So with 48% on board it should be easy to prevail, especially if the eurosceptic/right wing vote is split between UKIP and the tories.

Now let's see if the brexiters are still so keen on the "first past the post" system!

(*) The conservatives' share of the vote at the 2015 general election was 36.1%, of which 0% voted for the EU exit plan currently being put in place by the government because it wasn't in their manifesto.

It's the main reason why the wishes of the remainers shouldn't be ignored. 16 million won't win a 2-question referendum, but they can certainly win a general election (which of course trumps advisory referendums), especially if the 17m is split manifold.
Add all those who didn't vote as they "didn't know" rather than "not bothered/couldn't care less". Which side are they on - they get a general election vote too!

 

[anme]

Andrew Neil had it right last night when he asked a LibDem peer - Baroness Krammer - at what point she thought the word Democrat should be removed from the party's name.

Your position is incredible! If a party loses an election, should it simply disband? Or should it continue to fight for what it believes in? Do you think the leavers would have shut up if they had lost?

Please *THINK* about what you are writing.

 

[Railops]

It's the main reason why the wishes of the remainers shouldn't be ignored. 16 million won't win a 2-question referendum, but they can certainly win a general election (which of course trumps advisory referendums), especially if the 17m is split manifold.
Add all those who didn't vote as they "didn't know" rather than "not bothered/couldn't care less". Which side are they on - they get a general election vote too!

We all know that technically the referendum was advisory but I don't remember any politician from either side including pm Cameron saying so at the time.
I do remember all of them saying they would respect the result, and I doubt anybody who voted in it thought it was simply a guide and had no validity.

This advisory rubbish has only surfaced because of the continually moaning losers who simply will not accept the result and bring it up as a reason the referendum result should be simply ignored.

The democratic credentials of the entire political set-up in this country would be invalidated if the Govt did what the liberal left are pushing for.
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Please *THINK* about what you are writing.

Stop lecturing people.

 

[anme]

We all know that technically the referendum was advisory but I don't remember any politician from either side including pm Cameron saying so at the time.
I do remember all of them saying they would respect the result, and I doubt anybody who voted in it thought it was simply a guide and had no validity.

This advisory rubbish has only surfaced because of the continually moaning losers who simply will not accept the result and bring it up as a reason the referendum result should be simply ignored.

The democratic credentials of the entire political set-up in this country would be invalidated if the Govt did what the liberal left are pushing for.

No. I'm not sure who the "liberal left" is exactly - perhaps it exists mainly in your head? It doesn't seem to be the labour party. The liberal democrats have said they want a referendum on the arrangements reached for leaving the EU after the article 50 negotiations. That seems quite reasonable to me. How can calling for a referendum be "invalidating" "democratic credentials"?

Stop lecturing people.

Are you arguing that anyone who loses an election should be banned from ever making a statement in public again? Then I'm sure you will join me in demanding that Nigel Farage retires to a desert island immediately.

 

[EM2]

If ever there was evidence for the balkanisation of the UK - this is it.

It's an interesting point. Why should we all share the same government and ruler, just because we (mostly) share the same island?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's an interesting point. Why should we all share the same government and ruler, just because we (mostly) share the same island?

Not sure where the questions begins or ends! But very thought-provoking. Nationalism is a load of old bull - nations are entirely imagined communities based, usually, on geographic niceties. Nations exist only inside our head.

 

[Howardh]

We all know that technically the referendum was advisory but I don't remember any politician from either side including pm Cameron saying so at the time.
I do remember all of them saying they would respect the result, and I doubt anybody who voted in it thought it was simply a guide and had no validity.

This advisory rubbish has only surfaced because of the continually moaning losers who simply will not accept the result and bring it up as a reason the referendum result should be simply ignored.

Politicians and the voters will have to accept the result of the 2020 general election; which might change the direction of the Brexit vote (meaning hard to soft, whatever that means...) if the negotiations are still ongoing. If there is an increase in anti-Brexit feeling between now and then, should it be *ignored* in favour of *democracy*? Or is *democracy* allowing the people to reconsider, or even cement, their referendum vote?

But the point is whichever way Brexit turns out, it's probably going to upset way over 50% of the country (the 48% remainers + the leavers who think the result is too hard/soft) so maybe the best way to reunite the Kingdom is to plump for something no-one wants so we can all whinge as one??

 

[northwichcat]

Andrew Neil had it right last night when he asked a LibDem peer - Baroness Krammer - at what point she thought the word Democrat should be removed from the party's name.

Officially the Conservatives are registered as a party under the name of Conservative and Unionist Party, yet they must have set a record for the number of divisions they created in less than 2 years and with having a vote on relaxing Sunday trading laws they aren't trying hard to conserve things either! Maybe they should just be called "And Party"