What Does Off Down Mean?

[DynamicSpirit]

Photo attached - taken at Orpington a week or so ago. I'm curious what the 'off down' light means. Anyone know?

 

[jopsuk]

Off: the next signal is not at Danger (red). Trains may start away from a stop.
Down: The Down direction from the platform, in this case away from London.

 

[ComUtoR]

That platform (5) is reversible so you you need to distinguish between down and up.

 

[QueensCurve]

Off: the next signal is not at Danger (red). Trains may start away from a stop.
Down: The Down direction from the platform, in this case away from London.

How long have the platforms at Orpington been bidirectional?

 

[fulmar]

When an 'OFF' indicator is illuminated, it means the signal to which it applies is showing a proceed aspect. It does not mean or imply anything other than that.

They are provided at locations where staff may not have a clear view of a signal; often, though not exclusively, a platform starting signal.

 

[30907]

How long have the platforms at Orpington been bidirectional?

Fairly sure both down platforms have been able to start trains towards London for many years (1959? 1926?). I certainly recall 5 being so used (3 is the one in the photo BTW) in the 70s.

According to Trackmaps, 3-5 are all fully bi-di now, which I guess dates from the mid-90s resignalling (ISTR seeing the crossovers some years back), or maybe more recently.

 

[LLivery]

What does RA stand for while we're at it?

 

[dgl]

What does RA stand for while we're at it?

Right Away, basically a way of telling the driver that the train is ready to depart, will still be followed by the guards buzzer on guard worked units (where fitted) and possibly baton/light signals from the platform staff.

Primarily designed for Loco hauled units where there is no form of communication (buzzer/PA) between the guard and the driver.

 

[ComUtoR]

Right Away

 

[Deepgreen]

CD is 'close doors', and, where used, precedes RA, just for completeness.

 

[TheEdge]

Primarily designed for Loco hauled units where there is no form of communication (buzzer/PA) between the guard and the driver.

No, primarily its used for DOO dispatch when controlled by platform staff. The use of RA for dispatch of guarded trains is a local instruction applied to a small number of locations (Liverpool Street for example)

With no bell buzzer on a train its more likely that dispatch would be done with lamps and flags.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

RA is used to dispatch a lot of conventionally manned trains on the West Coast Mainline too.

 

[Phil.]

Right Away, basically a way of telling the driver that the train is ready to depart, will still be followed by the guards buzzer on guard worked units (where fitted) and possibly baton/light signals from the platform staff.

Primarily designed for Loco hauled units where there is no form of communication (buzzer/PA) between the guard and the driver.

You're not seriously telling us that someone has made train dispatch that complicated? Mountains and molehills come to mind.

 

[Crossover]

Right Away, basically a way of telling the driver that the train is ready to depart, will still be followed by the guards buzzer on guard worked units (where fitted) and possibly baton/light signals from the platform staff.

Primarily designed for Loco hauled units where there is no form of communication (buzzer/PA) between the guard and the driver.

My bold - I'm not certain that is necessarily the case. For example there is a local instruction for all trains (including ECS IIRC) from Manchester Piccadilly to be despatched on CD/RA even though they have a guard. In which case, I am fairly certain that the guard doesn't use the buzzer as well once the despatcher has given RA

 

[fulmar]

I am fairly certain that the guard doesn't use the buzzer as well once the despatcher has given RA

Correct.

 

[daikilo]

"right away" goes back to the days of flags when a green one would be waved by the guard (or an appointed person on certain platforms) to signal to the driver that the train could depart.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

When an 'OFF' indicator is illuminated, it means the signal to which it applies is showing a proceed aspect. It does not mean or imply anything other than that.

They are provided at locations where staff may not have a clear view of a signal; often, though not exclusively, a platform starting signal.

Ah. So presumably that would explain the location of the sign... Halfway along the platform and facing away from London - so any drivers of trains that are ready to leave the platform heading 'down' wouldn't be able to see the sign anyway unless they deliberately stuck their heads out the window and looked back along the platform. Presumably the point is that the sign is for platform staff to see it, not for drivers to see it?

 

[W230]

Ah. So presumably that would explain the location of the sign... Halfway along the platform and facing away from London - so any drivers of trains that are ready to leave the platform heading 'down' wouldn't be able to see the sign anyway unless they deliberately stuck their heads out the window and looked back along the platform. Presumably the point is that the sign is for platform staff to see it, not for drivers to see it?

Spot on.

You get the bat and flag at the window at Orpington but on that platform (5) for a longer train the 'OFF DOWN' will aid the second despatcher further along the platform who may not be able to see the starting signal. The down starter is on a signal post next to the staff cabin so may not be that visible to dispatchers.

 

[tsr]

You're not seriously telling us that someone has made train dispatch that complicated? Mountains and molehills come to mind.

There are plenty of complicated dispatch methods, but you are correct in querying that post. A visual ready-to-start signal from the guard/conductor may be relayed by the Right Away being illuminated (eg. green flag from guard -> platform staff give RA) but in doing so it will act in replacement of the act of giving the ready-to-start on the bell or buzzer.

As I understand it, one primary benefit of using the RA over the bell/buzzer is that it is usually unable to be illuminated adjacent to a signal not showing a proceed aspect (occasional local exceptions may apply). The bell/buzzer is not interlocked with signalling equipment, and as such there is a potential risk of the driver reflexively responding and taking power against a signal at danger.

 

[Phil.]

There are plenty of complicated dispatch methods, but you are correct in querying that post. A visual ready-to-start signal from the guard/conductor may be relayed by the Right Away being illuminated (eg. green flag from guard -> platform staff give RA) but in doing so it will act in replacement of the act of giving the ready-to-start on the bell or buzzer.

As I understand it, one primary benefit of using the RA over the bell/buzzer is that it is usually unable to be illuminated adjacent to a signal not showing a proceed aspect (occasional local exceptions may apply). The bell/buzzer is not interlocked with signalling equipment, and as such there is a potential risk of the driver reflexively responding and taking power against a signal at danger.

Ah, that's more like it. In loco hauled days at Paddington given the curvature of the platforms it was not possible - unless a wee short train - for the driver/second man to be able to see the Guard at the back. The platform starters had a box which displayed an R - not RA, just R - which would illuminate when the appropriate plunger on the platform was pushed. The dispatch method was the man on the platform gave the Guard the tip, the Guard waved his green handsignal at him and the man on the platform depressed the plunger. The R was interlocked with the signal. This was not used when the HSTs arrived, one just gave the driver two on the buzzer as had the DMU Guards been doing.

 

[74A]

Ah, that's more like it. In loco hauled days at Paddington given the curvature of the platforms it was not possible - unless a wee short train - for the driver/second man to be able to see the Guard at the back. The platform starters had a box which displayed an R - not RA, just R - which would illuminate when the appropriate plunger on the platform was pushed. The dispatch method was the man on the platform gave the Guard the tip, the Guard waved his green handsignal at him and the man on the platform depressed the plunger. The R was interlocked with the signal. This was not used when the HSTs arrived, one just gave the driver two on the buzzer as had the DMU Guards been doing.

Still do that these days (except that RA is now displayed). Sleeper every night and any HST which had the bell buzzer not working

 

[Bromley boy]

"right away" goes back to the days of flags when a green one would be waved by the guard (or an appointed person on certain platforms) to signal to the driver that the train could depart.

Still happens at "bat and flag" locations, of which Orpington is one.

Platform staff check "off" indicator (number of staff required depends on train length), PICOD (person in charge of dispatch) stands adjacent to driver's cab and presents a white bat for "close doors", then green flag held at chest level for "right away" (white and green lamps used in place of flags at night/poor vis).

Driver is also required to check interlock light and that the signal is off before proceeding.

Note the flag/lamp is not "waved", presumably because a lamp of any colour waved is in fact a danger signal!

 

[Railsigns]

In loco hauled days at Paddington given the curvature of the platforms it was not possible - unless a wee short train - for the driver/second man to be able to see the Guard at the back. The platform starters had a box which displayed an R - not RA, just R - which would illuminate when the appropriate plunger on the platform was pushed.

I cannot believe that the Western Region would ever install a 'right away' indicator that displayed just a letter "R", because of the risk of confusion with a signal route indication "R" for "Relief Line" (Western Region terminology). All the evidence points consistently to the display of "RA" at Paddington and elsewhere throughout the Western, even as far back as GWR days. Every other region apart from the Western did use "R" for 'right away' until BR eventually standardised on "RA" around 1990, at the same time as "CD" indicators started to appear.

 

[dgl]

I did confuse thing rather didn't I, fault of a layman I suppose, did think it sounded a bit complicated/not quite right.

 

[D1009]

Ah, that's more like it. In loco hauled days at Paddington given the curvature of the platforms it was not possible - unless a wee short train - for the driver/second man to be able to see the Guard at the back. The platform starters had a box which displayed an R - not RA, just R - which would illuminate when the appropriate plunger on the platform was pushed. The dispatch method was the man on the platform gave the Guard the tip, the Guard waved his green handsignal at him and the man on the platform depressed the plunger. The R was interlocked with the signal. This was not used when the HSTs arrived, one just gave the driver two on the buzzer as had the DMU Guards been doing.

As someone else pointed out, the Western always used RA, some other regions used R.

Still do that these days (except that RA is now displayed). Sleeper every night and any HST which had the bell buzzer not working

Not just at Paddington either, RA indicators are still in place at many GW large stations for that reason. Charter trains also need them.

 

[craigybagel]

I cannot believe that the Western Region would ever install a 'right away' indicator that displayed just a letter "R", because of the risk of confusion with a signal route indication "R" for "Relief Line" (Western Region terminology). All the evidence points consistently to the display of "RA" at Paddington and elsewhere throughout the Western, even as far back as GWR days. Every other region apart from the Western did use "R" for 'right away' until BR eventually standardised on "RA" around 1990, at the same time as "CD" indicators started to appear.

Although there are still places where "R" still exists.

My bold - I'm not certain that is necessarily the case. For example there is a local instruction for all trains (including ECS IIRC) from Manchester Piccadilly to be despatched on CD/RA even though they have a guard. In which case, I am fairly certain that the guard doesn't use the buzzer as well once the despatcher has given RA

Correct.

Although it does of course happen by accident from time to time

In defence of guards though, drivers have been known to buzz two when pulling away on ECS moves, or even from signals

 

[Ianno87]

Although there are still places where "R" still exists.

'R' is still used at (amongst others) Bolton, Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Street

 

[Phil.]

I can assure you all that visiting Paddington circa 1973 and during my time working there 1977-80 the indicators showed a small R for right away. The route indicators were much bigger. Remember that the W.R. was so perverse it used to fix the white plate with the black horizontal bar to indicate an automatic signal above the signal aspects and not as the rule book used to describe below.

 

[LLivery]

Thank you all for the answer!

 

[Railsigns]

I can assure you all that visiting Paddington circa 1973 and during my time working there 1977-80 the indicators showed a small R for right away.

I honestly think you're mistaken about that.

Remember that the W.R. was so perverse

Which only goes to prove my point. The Western used "RA" while every other region used "R".