Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Highland37]

4tph seems a bit better to me as it allows more flexibility and the effects of a train problem cause slightly less disruption.

 

[najaB]

Or that delivering 6-car x 6tph would have produced a better service for customers than 8-car x 4tph?

Guess what lengthening platforms allows you to do later - 8-car x 6tph.

 

[clc]

Do you deny that the redevelopment of the shopping centre forced changes on the station? Or that the requirement for 8-car trains was driven in the short term by not delivering 6tph now? Or that delivering 6-car x 6tph would have produced a better service for customers than 8-car x 4tph?

What changes are you referring to? I don't particularly like the plans for expanding the shopping centre (currently on hold) but it seems to me the station redevelopment is about as good as you could realistically hope for.

Is there any need for 6tph on the E&G when the Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR line will provide so much additional capacity?

 

[amcluesent]

Relax everyone, in his emergency statement, Humza pledged that lessons have been learned and rightly so.

"Although there are no guarantees major failures won’t happen, I give my reassurance that ScotRail has learned lessons"

http://www.scotsman.com/news/humza-yousaf-unveils-improvement-plans-to-ease-scotrail-chaos-1-4298509

 

[marks87]

If I could ban one cliché, it would be the expression "lessons will be learned", and variations thereof.

 

[Highland37]

Thank god there is local control over the railways in Scotland. Have you seen the delays and increases in costs in the GWEP?

That said, I am just back from Fearn. Train late as the drive seemed to be asleep and exit of each station, ancient track with bumpy ride and the awful 158 with it's loud humming noise.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Do you deny that the redevelopment of the shopping centre forced changes on the station? Or that the requirement for 8-car trains was driven in the short term by not delivering 6tph now? Or that delivering 6-car x 6tph would have produced a better service for customers than 8-car x 4tph?

Why would the shopping centre have forced the station to be changed, or the 6tph dropped back down to 4tph?

A 6tph service rather than 4tph service would have some benefits, but would come at some costs. What TS found out is that most of the benefits of EGIP could be delivered at a lower immediate cost, and in such a way that didn't preclude the other works being delivered later. In the end, the job of a government is to allocate tax revenues in the best possible way for the entire country, and saving money on EGIP without losing most of the benefits frees up resources for other very worthy causes, either on the railway or beyond. It's very easy to complain that something isn't getting all the money it possibly could but unless you are willing to advocate cuts to other areas to fund it, your suggestions aren't enough to make a government change its mind.

Running longer trains at the same frequency is a more efficient solution than running more of the same length. An 8 car train costs the same to crew as a 6 car and over the entire hour, 4x8=32 carriages isn't that far off 6x6=36 carriages' worth of capacity. When the various grade-separation works are done it'll be easy to run a fifth train per hour to get up to 5x8=40 carriages an hour of capacity, thus exceeding the original plan. That sixth path could either be used for another shuttle service, leading to 48 carriages per hour of capacity (vs 24 today) or alternatively those paths could be used instead for additional long distance or Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane services. As important as E&G passengers are, going from a 12 minute to a 10 minute frequency isn't going to deliver as much of a step change as going from a 60 minute to a 30 minute, or a 30 minute to a 20 minute frequency for the other lines that branch off the E&G.

 

[47271]

I'm sure the current government are trying to achieve a journey time between Queen St and Waverly that was set in the 70s by a non stop loco hauled train.

This one comes up on here quite often, and it is absolutely true that E&G point to point times were faster in the 1970s and 1980s. But the trains only stopped at Haymarket and Falkirk High - some of them didn't even trouble themselves with Falkirk - and they ran half hourly. So what's quicker, waiting 15 minutes to get on a train that goes off like a scalded cat, or getting on one straight away that takes ten minutes longer, and provides a proper service to large centres of population in between? Oh, and the locos broke down all the time - especially in the late 80s when the 47s were clapped - so you'd no real idea when you'd get there. Welcome to a rail system under full government control.

Anyway, to further lighten the misery and make 380101 feel better about his present situation, I'd like to retell a story that I've put on another thread in the past, but it has particular relevance to some of the copy and paste nonsense being spouted at the moment.

I used to commute daily between Edinburgh and Glasgow, I did it for years. It was okay under National Express and First, in the same way as Abellio is okay. It was okay, and in those days noone - especially the Transport Minister, Stewart Stevenson - had thought to turn something that was okay into a national scandal.

One morning my train set off from Waverley as usual. I was reading the Herald and in it was, as a I recall, the Scottish Government's very first announcement of EGIP. £2bn or whatever it was at the time, and they said that it would get point to point times down to 37 mins. Brilliant.

Just as we pulled into Haymarket we were informed that, due to some disruption or other, we'd be running non stop to Queen Street. I immediately made the connection with the story in the paper and deliberately measured the time taken to reach Glasgow, and it was fast. It took 37 mins - £2bn saved at a stroke I thought.

Obviously I'm not being serious, but I can tell you that every person in my carriage was delighted that we were going to skip stop the route and we'd all get to Glasgow ten minutes earlier than we expected.

So there you go: the current red hot topics of a nationalised rail operator, E&G journey times, infrastructure improvements and skip stopping all rolled into one.

How did any of this moderately uninteresting stuff that only affects a small minority of the Scottish population manage to become a subject of daily national discussion, when it isn't even that broken in the first place: what about the real failures: Police Scotland, local authority finances, social work or the the NHS, to choose but four?

 

[Highland37]

Do you really think Police Scotland, the NHS are failing etc? Would you say that to a police man or nurse?

It could be better certainly but with huge budget cuts, things will be affected.

I think you have answered your own question ("How did any of this moderately uninteresting stuff that only affects a small minority of the Scottish population manage to become a subject of daily national discussion...") - I would suggest the constant talk of multiple things "failing" has created a Daily Mail type of hysteria and witch hunt.

 

[47271]

Do you really think Police Scotland, the NHS are failing etc? Would you say that to a police man or nurse?

It could be better certainly but with huge budget cuts, things will be affected.

I think you have answered your own question ("How did any of this moderately uninteresting stuff that only affects a small minority of the Scottish population manage to become a subject of daily national discussion...") - I would suggest the constant talk of multiple things "failing" has created a Daily Mail type of hysteria and witch hunt.

I have total respect for those delivering those services more essential than passenger trains, but my point is that the media and opposition parties would be far better engaged in holding the Scottish Government to account for their oversight, or underfunding, of those activities than comparitively minor failings on Scotrail.

My question was rhetorical and I completely agree with your answer. However, even the Daily Mail wouldn't waste its readers' time with the sort of manufactured repetitive lazy nonsense that we're getting out of - mainly - The Scotsman and Neil Bibby at the moment. The 'crisis' has adopted an amazing disproportionate life of its own which I'm trying to find precedents for?

 

[380101]

Anyway, to further lighten the misery and make 380101 feel better about his present situation, I'd like to retell a story that I've put on another thread in the past, but it has particular relevance to some of the copy and paste nonsense being spouted at the moment.

How did any of this moderately uninteresting stuff that only affects a small minority of the Scottish population manage to become a subject of daily national discussion, when it isn't even that broken in the first place: what about the real failures: Police Scotland, local authority finances, social work or the the NHS, to choose but four?

Not sure what situation you think I'm in? I don't particularly care about journey times on any rail service in Scotland. All I care about is getting my passengers to their destination safely. If I'm a few minutes down, well so what? People today always seem to be in a rush everywhere. I get that people get frustrated if their train is late. Even I do if I'm travelling pass but there isn't an awful lot that can be done given the infrastructure and rolling stock constraints competing against a demand for more trains per hour with more seats etc.

You're spot on that it's uninteresting and it is serving as a good diversion to other more pressing issues that face the current Scottish government. I'm sure Highland37 will be along to cry more SNPBAD at this but I firmly believe that they have made a lot of mistakes with their constant drive to centralise things under the guise of efficency and cost savings. Labour and the Lib Dems also made plenty of mistakes but none as bad as the SNP. Note I also believe Labour are currently shooting themselves in the foot over this as we all know Labour had 13 years to change the railways and didn't. So they have absolutely no right to be criticising the SNP over rail in Scotland.

Going by his user name I'm guessing Highland37 is actually based in the Highlands? Well, I policed in the Highlands before the Police Scotland fiasco came into being. We had good quality, local policing teams and a superb state of the art control room. All this is now gone as a consequence of Police Scotland cutbacks. In Aviemore we had 5 cops on each shift plus a sergeant and a civilian support staff member 24hrs a day. Now you're lucky if the front desk is even open to the public 8hrs a day.

The SNP are now starting to develope the arrogance that Labour had and are taking their supporters and the electorate in Scotland for granted. The sorry excuse for opposition parties in Scotland has allowed this to happen.

 

[Butts]

I have total respect for those delivering those services more essential than passenger trains, but my point is that the media and opposition parties would be far better engaged in holding the Scottish Government to account for their oversight, or underfunding, of those activities than comparitively minor failings on Scotrail.

My question was rhetorical and I completely agree with your answer. However, even the Daily Mail wouldn't waste its readers' time with the sort of manufactured repetitive lazy nonsense that we're getting out of - mainly - The Scotsman and Neil Bibby at the moment. The 'crisis' has adopted an amazing disproportionate life of its own which I'm trying to find precedents for?

Hardly anyone reads The Scotsman so I wouldn't worry to much about it. Johnston Press it's owners also own "I" and they are not going to town on it.

Ironically I picked up a Free Copy on a Scotrail Train yesterday (1st Class Provision on non- booked route) Wonder how much longer that deal will last for ?

 

[me123]

Do you really think Police Scotland, the NHS are failing etc? Would you say that to a police man or nurse?

I can't speak for the other services, but I would argue that whilst the NHS in Scotland has challenges, the challenges are not unique to Scotland. They happen elsewhere in the UK as well. In fact, I would argue that NHS Scotland is doing better than its counterparts elsewhere, certainly when compared to England.

 

[Butts]

I can't speak for the other services, but I would argue that whilst the NHS in Scotland has challenges, the challenges are not unique to Scotland. They happen elsewhere in the UK as well. In fact, I would argue that NHS Scotland is doing better than its counterparts elsewhere, certainly when compared to England.

Wales seems to be the worst performing UK part of the NHS if you believe reports in the media. Has that been your experience ?

Should prescription charges and parking fees be reintroduced up here to free up cash to improve services ?

 

[me123]

Wales seems to be the worst performing UK part of the NHS if you believe reports in the media. Has that been your experience ?

I don't want to derail this away from Scotrail too much, but I think the GIG/NHS in Wales has more challenges than in Scotland and some issues are much more commonplace. Bed issues, for example, are worse and this is what's impacting on A&E performance. And the IT is generations behind. That all said, the people I've been working with on the front line are no less committed than the people I've worked with in Scotland.

Should prescription charges and parking fees be reintroduced up here to free up cash to improve services ?

I would disagree with prescription charges being reintroduced - there's lots of issues with them, namely that so many drugs are cheaper than the charge and those who would pay the most get them free/highly subsidised anyway. Prohibiting the prescription of paracetamol and brufen and the like would be wise with charges, though.

Parking... I am open to charging for it. The Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh is one of the few hospitals without major parking problems and you pay a lot to park there. That said, it also has a great bus network to support it (including fast and frequent links to a major park and ride) which most hospitals lack.

 

[47271]

Not sure what situation you think I'm in?

Sorry, you were reading too much into it, it was just a funny story to cheer everyone up, I think we could do with it on this thread.

But I was serious about E&G trains being utterly hopeless in the late 80s, and way beyond the tiny imaginations of Scotrail's present day critics if they think this is a crisis, something we should all remember when we next hear talk of full state control...

 

[380101]

Sorry, you were reading too much into it, it was just a funny story to cheer everyone up, I think we could do with it on this thread.

But I was serious about E&G trains being utterly hopeless in the late 80s, and way beyond the tiny imaginations of Scotrail's present day critics if they think this is a crisis, something we should all remember when we next hear talk of full state control...

indeed wholeheartedly agree with you. There is absolutely no crisis with the railways in Scotland - apart from the demise of many freight contracts and closures of DBC depots and imminent redundancies. The transport minister would be better off concentrating on getting more freight onto rail and off our roads. Hopefully the token extra 800mil that's heading our way for infrastructure projects over the next 4 years gets spent wisely. I know it's not a massive amount in budgetary terms but it'll go a long way in improving transport infrastructure in Scotland.

I'm far too young to know anything about trains in the 80s

 

[47271]

I'm far too young to know anything about trains in the 80s [emoji38]

I wasn't that old myself at the time. But one of my earliest memories of rail travel is hearing the well rehearsed phrase 'this is due to a fault in the locomotive' whilst stopped somewhere in the Newbridge area, and I'm not trying to be funny, it's absolutely true. [emoji38]

To provide a more positive 80s parallel to Abellio's current plans, I also believe that I was a small and uninterested passenger on the very first HST (an entirely efficient Sunday diversion in May 1984 I'm told by my Dad) to travel between Aberdeen and Inverness.

Anyway, a wee trip down memory lane, both good and bad to give balance to opinion on the nationalised railway. Please return to topic...

 

[Altnabreac]

Do you deny that the redevelopment of the shopping centre forced changes on the station? Or that the requirement for 8-car trains was driven in the short term by not delivering 6tph now? Or that delivering 6-car x 6tph would have produced a better service for customers than 8-car x 4tph?

Better for whom?

For Edinburgh - Glasgow passengers there would have been a slightly bigger speed improvement than is now planned (only on some services) along with an increase in frequency from 4tph to 6tph.

For passengers from intermediate stations at Falkirk, Linlithgow, Croy etc there would have been the same frequency as now, with a similar uplift in capacity.

For Cumbernauld passengers there would have been a time penalty with all trains reversing at Springburn.

For Maryhill passengers there would either have been a diversion or requirement to change trains at Anniesland with consequent time penalty and inconvenience.

Overall the revised EGIP delivers a similar capacity increase for less money and less inconvenience for other users. Personally I am strongly of the opinion that elements of the descoped EGIP need to be introduced in future years especially the Dalmeny Chord and grade separation at Winchburgh and Greenhill. Happily all these projects are in the CP6 options report.

However I am also of the view that the extra capacity generated from these interventions should be used for reliability, speed increases for Glasgow - Aberdeen services, extra services like the proposed 2tph Cumbernauld - Edinburgh service and calls at Edinburgh Gateway for Glasgow trains.

I wouldn't increase the core Glasgow - Edinburgh service to 6tph even after building Greenhill and Dalmeny. Once that additional capacity is required Edinburgh - Glasgow HSR and a move to Central for the Edinburgh service are the ways forward. For what it's worth I think TS and Ministers are also of that opinion.

 

[Highland37]

. Hopefully the token extra 800mil that's heading our way for infrastructure projects over the next 4 years gets spent wisely. I know it's not a massive amount in budgetary terms but it'll go a long way in improving transport infrastructure in Scotland.

It's not "extra" as it doesn't make up for the cuts already happening so in effect, it's a smaller cut.

 

[HH]

Better for whom?

For Edinburgh - Glasgow passengers there would have been a slightly bigger speed improvement than is now planned (only on some services) along with an increase in frequency from 4tph to 6tph.

That's the majority of passengers. Faster AND more frequent services are what drives modal shift*, which was the stated aim of TS, along with a boost to the economy - IIRC each minute off the journey time was valued at £500m (although I have no idea where they got that value from).

* In particular 6tph is generally accepted by passengers as a "turn up and go" service, which changes their attitude to the service.

 

[Butts]

That's the majority of passengers. Faster AND more frequent services are what drives modal shift*, which was the stated aim of TS, along with a boost to the economy - IIRC each minute off the journey time was valued at £500m (although I have no idea where they got that value from).

* In particular 6tph is generally accepted by passengers as a "turn up and go" service, which changes their attitude to the service.

Sounds a bit "pie in the sky"

Living in Falkirk I'm envious of those living in Linlithgow who currently get up to 6 trains an hour to Edinburgh / Glasgow .

Ours are split between 2 Stations :cry:

 

[Altnabreac]

That's the majority of passengers. Faster AND more frequent services are what drives modal shift*, which was the stated aim of TS, along with a boost to the economy - IIRC each minute off the journey time was valued at £500m (although I have no idea where they got that value from).

* In particular 6tph is generally accepted by passengers as a "turn up and go" service, which changes their attitude to the service.

Wrong. The Intermediate stations collectively generate as many passengers as Edinburgh - Glasgow passengers.

Indeed when you look at something at the overall route corridor level Edinburgh - Glasgow demand is only around 10% of the total trips:
http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/j9853a-23.htm

For rail demand and on the Falkirk High line in particular it will be higher than 10% but my understanding is that it is more like 40-50% of the demand on the route is made up of end to end journeys.

 

[Sybic26]

Re the comments regarding the current stopping pattern at Linlithgow.

Eastbound to Edinburgh there are six trains an hour as follows:
2 per hour Dunblane/Stirling to Edinburgh
2 per hour Glasgow to Edinburgh.
2 per hour Glasgow to Edinburgh BUT THEY DO NOT STOP AT Linlithgow!!

Same pattern westbound.

 

[Butts]

Re the comments regarding the current stopping pattern at Linlithgow.

Eastbound to Edinburgh there are six trains an hour as follows:
2 per hour Dunblane/Stirling to Edinburgh
2 per hour Glasgow to Edinburgh.
2 per hour Glasgow to Edinburgh BUT THEY DO NOT STOP AT Linlithgow!!

Same pattern westbound.

Okay smartass - getting a bit carried away - they still get double FKG amount.:cry:

 

[amcluesent]

It's the big freeze on ScotRail! No, not just the points, the fares too and rightly so.

Nicola Sturgeon said she will consider a Labour demand for a rail fare freeze after another morning of delay and disruption on the rail network.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ys-she-ll-consider-rail-fare-freeze-1-4300061

 

[Groningen]

Scotland's rail service crumbles while official in charge of Scotrail chaos rides gravy train to £105K salary

The Record can reveal Aidan Grisewood also landed a jaw-dropping 10 per cent payrise last year despite a plague of delays and costly gaffes. The official at the heart of Scotland’s trains crisis was handed an inflation-busting 10 per cent payrise last year, the Daily Record can reveal. Aidan Grisewood banked nearly £105,000 for being the Scottish Government’s senior civil servant in charge of the railways. But since he received his whopping salary plus-pension package, the nation’s network has plunged into chaos on his watch. Commuter services run by ScotRail operator Abellio have been plagued by delays, while track upgrades in the Central Belt have been set back months by costly gaffes.

Now Grisewood, a senior economist with Royal Bank of Scotland shortly before the financial crash, will be in charge of overseeing the transfer of tax and welfare powers from London to Edinburgh. He left his role as director of rail with Transport Scotland in August, just as complaints about ScotRail began to snowball, and is now Head of Fiscal Responsibility Division. Grisewood, 43, began his career as an adviser on railway finance for the the UK’s Department for Transport. He moved to the Treasury, then worked for RBS between 2005 and 2006, shortly before the bank imploded and needed a £45billion bail-out by the taxpayer in 2008. Grisewood landed the plum job at Transport Scotland in 2012.

He managed the bids process that saw Dutch company Abellio awarded the £6billion, 10-year ScotRail franchise in 2015. Data updated to Thursday of this week shows more than a quarter – 26 per cent – of ScotRail trains ran late. Next week, the RMT rail union will hold a protest outside the First Minister’s Bute House residence. Scottish Regional Organiser Mick Hogg said: “This episode speaks volumes about the shambles that the Scottish railways have become. Mr Grisewood’s CV did not qualify him for the job of running the nation’s rail network and it was a rotten choice by the Scottish Government to appoint him.”

Scottish Labour transport spokesman Neil Bibby added: “As passengers put up with delayed, overcrowded or even cancelled train services it will be frustrating for them to see senior figures being rewarded with bumper pay packages with the service so poor.” The Scottish Government said Grisewood hadn’t been removed from his job because of the railways crisis. A spokesman said: “The role was advertised internally within Scottish Government. He applied and was the successful candidate.”

Source: Daily Record

 

[XC90]

The newspaper talk about a gravy train. They have a cheek, all they are doing is jumping on a bandwagon to try and increase daily sales of their ever decreasing readership. Not too surprising as it is a business, but their credibility and knowledge is limited at best.

Not to mention the stories they print without doing research. Lazy journalism I think it's called.

There is no crisis in Scotland's railway. 89% + PPM is hardly a crisis. The railway is always an easy target!

 

[Marklund]

It's not "extra" as it doesn't make up for the cuts already happening so in effect, it's a smaller cut.

Cuts? But Scotland has it's own tax setting powers. Any cut is self inflicted.

 

[amcluesent]

Nearly 50 trains a day are cancelled or significantly delayed on Scotland’s railways, according to new analysis by Scottish Labour.

The party highlighted data from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) showing that during each four-week period an average of 1,360 services are either cancelled or arrive more than half an hour late.

The figures show an average of 49 trains have been cancelled or significantly delayed every day since Dutch operator Abellio took over the ScotRail franchise in April 2015.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...t-50-scotrail-trains-a-day-are-late-1-4302134