Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[HH]

...All that would happen if it was taken under TS is that the alleged 1million in profit generated every week would go to government coffers instead of a private company.

Someone's taking something powerful. There's not a cat in hell's chance that Abellio are making anywhere this amount of profit. Perhaps people have forgotten that this is an Alliance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No words can accurately sum up the stupidity of the article.

Everywhere in the UK trains are going more slowly than they used to; there are some good reasons for that (and probably some bad too) - two are the changes in safety rules and the increase in congestion. Both of these are under the Scottish Government's remit; to give one example of the second, when TS downscaled EGIP they took out the infrastrastructure improvements that would have made a real difference to journey times and instead spent money on building the shopping centre at Queen Street. That decision was made before Abellio even started...

 

[380101]

Someone's taking something powerful. There's not a cat in hell's chance that Abellio are making anywhere this amount of profit. Perhaps people have forgotten that this is an Alliance?

indeed. This was the figure the press quoted a few weeks ago when the current media and political attacks started. Abellio ScotRail came out pretty quickly and stated that the weekly profit was not anywhere close to this amount.

It is an Alliance but the 2 companies are still entirely separate entities when it comes to money. It was seen as a way to have a smoother operating railway in Scotland. ScotRail seems to take all the flack for the majority of Network Rail infrastructure problems though.

It was a good idea on paper but in reality I don't think it's working as well as imagined.

 

[Fishplate84]

Even if Abellio were making £52m in profit a year, which we all know they aren't, I'm staggered that people believe that having this reinvested into the service because it was run by a not-for-profit public sector operator would make the slightest difference.
Yes, its a large sum, but its also a £600m+ a year contract in the railway industry so has the capacity to gobble up huge sums for very little obvious outcome.
If it were a public operator £52m would soon vanish in vanity projects and keeping the unions on side.
The £20m additional at Southern was a grand headline but what did it resolve any of the issues? No.

 

[Starmill]

Quite right. TS have dodged way too much flack considering the latest daft reporting.

Yes, they absolutely should have more flack for setting up arguably the highest quality railway contract in the country.

 

[Altnabreac]

Someone's taking something powerful. There's not a cat in hell's chance that Abellio are making anywhere this amount of profit. Perhaps people have forgotten that this is an Alliance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Everywhere in the UK trains are going more slowly than they used to; there are some good reasons for that (and probably some bad too) - two are the changes in safety rules and the increase in congestion. Both of these are under the Scottish Government's remit; to give one example of the second, when TS downscaled EGIP they took out the infrastrastructure improvements that would have made a real difference to journey times and instead spent money on building the shopping centre at Queen Street. That decision was made before Abellio even started...

Actually only the second is under the remit of the Scottish Government.

Safety, regulation and structure of the railways is a matter reserved to Westminster.

• Provision and regulation of railway services
• Rail transport security
• The subject-matter of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987
• The subject-matter of the Railway Heritage Act 1996

 

[Sybic26]

Yes but the Scottish Government through Transport Scotland funds Network Rail in Scotland. Scottish Government is also responsible for part of MRs debt.

 

[Carlisle]

The £20m additional at Southern was a grand headline but what did it resolve any of the issues? No.

As It was intended for some minor infrastructure enhancements to aid reliability plus an increase in some specialist management roles ,it'll be far too early to say with any certainty if it made any difference or not

 

[amcluesent]

It would be a wee kindness for Sturgeon to loan Humza one of her 46 spin-doctors (cost to tax-payers a trifling £5M a year) to help him control the message. Seems ScotRail has been rehabilitated overnight!

Humza Yousaf insists ScotRail is not ‘poor service’ ahead of crisis statement to MSPs

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...or-service-ahead-of-crisis-statement-to-msps/

 

[HH]

Actually only the second is under the remit of the Scottish Government.

Safety, regulation and structure of the railways is a matter reserved to Westminster.

Good point, but still NR set speed restrictions, for instance, and they answer (in part) to TS in Scotland.

 

[khib70]

It would be a wee kindness for Sturgeon to loan Humza one of her 46 spin-doctors (cost to tax-payers a trifling £5M a year) to help him control the message. Seems ScotRail has been rehabilitated overnight!



https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...or-service-ahead-of-crisis-statement-to-msps/

There's far too many of you bitter and twisted Labourites on this thrread, still trying to come to terms with becoming an insignificant minority party in a country you once saw as a rotten borough. If stupid point-scoring against the SNP is all you can contribute, don't bother, eh?:roll:

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I live south of the border these days, so can't remember which schemes were pre-2007 and which were post-2007 commitments (though I certainly can't give the SNP the credit you've given them for the Borders line, since it was a Lib Dem trade off when they are in a coalition administration with Labour at Holyrood). Maybe some of the subsequent downgrading/ single tracking/ delays on the Borders line are things that the SNP could take credit for though?

The Lib Dems didn't agree to fund the Borders railway. In fact they did nothing for Borders transport in the eight years they were in coalition, including the four years with a Lib Dem transport minister, apart from cancelling an upgrade to the A7 at Boleside.
The SNP delayed the Borders railway and reduced its specification but they did ultimately fund it.
The lack of action by the Lib Dems compared with their successors no doubt contributed to them being wiped out in both Scottish and UK elections in what had been a stronghold for them for 50 years.

 

[reb0118]

rotten borough.

?

Pedants' Corner: should that not be "Rotten Burgh"?......[emoji6]



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[PaulLothian]

Good grief, this is complete barrel-scraping from The Scotsman.

Quote:
Train journeys between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee are slower now than they were during the reign of Queen Victoria.

The astonishing findings come amid a storm of criticism of ScotRail operator Abellio due to late trains and delays.

Despite being powered by steam, locomotives in 1895 were able to make the trip from the Capital to Dundee in just 57 minutes, historic timetables show – compared to today’s 64 minutes.

And a journey to Perth which would have taken 65 minutes at the end of the 19th century now takes 72 minutes.

Opposition parties have called on Transport Minister Humza Yousaf to make an urgent statement to Parliament over proposals to bring Scotland’s railways into public ownership.

Responding to the findings of research by Scottish Labour, ScotRail blamed the slower journey times today on the fact there are now far more stations and trains to deal with than in the 19th century.

The direct rail route from Edinburgh to Perth via Dunfermline, Kinross and Glenfarg was closed in 1970 to make way for the M90 motorway.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/train-j...-era-1-4295966

No words can accurately sum up the stupidity of the article.

I am wondering, given the year quoted, whether this was a timing achieved during the 1895 Race to the North. I have read a detailed description of timings, but it's not in any book I own.

Can anyone shed light on this?

 

[aylesbury]

That article in the Scotsman is in deed a rubbish one but is typical of the standard of writing in our newspapers now.

I despair when a subject that needs research is treated so offhandedly and weighted towards sensationalism.

Abellio Scotrail - like any TOC - has bad days, but very often it's not of their making, and they do not need ministers shouting at them.

 

[Clansman]

I am wondering, given the year quoted, whether this was a timing achieved during the 1895 Race to the North. I have read a detailed description of timings, but it's not in any book I own.

Can anyone shed light on this?

I'm unsure on this to be honest.

A bit off your question here so apologies.

In response to the article, Perth and Dundee to Edinburgh could easily be achieved in an hour, theoretically. As long as you run non stop with tilting trains, which would combat the curves around Burntisland and Ladybank; tilting bi-Modes via Stirling would help also - so that would be the better option to minimise the cost of opening an entirely new line. But given the timescale of which this would happen I'd imagine there would be increased demand for the new line anyway by that point (around 2030 when the HSTs are gone).

Although I am a massive fan of reopening the line through Glenfarg. I'm getting sick and tired of Fife.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm unsure on this to be honest.

A bit off your question here so apologies.

In response to the article, Perth and Dundee to Edinburgh could easily be achieved in an hour. As long as you run non stop with tilting trains, which would combat the curves around Burntisland and Ladybank; tilting bi-Modes via Stirling would help also - so that would be the better option to minimise the cost of opening an entirely new line. But given the timescale of which this would happen I'd imagine there would be increased demand for the new line anyway by that point (around 2030 when the HSTs are gone).

Although I am a massive fan of reopening the line through Glenfarg. I'm getting sick and tired of Fife.

Is it not theoretically quicker to go via the Fife Circle (if, hypothetically, we didn't have to worry about any other trains on the track), than along the coastal line? Does anyone have non-stop timings from Edinburgh to passing Markinch on both routes?

 

[marks87]

There's a CrossCountry ECS from Dundee to Craigentinny that goes round the Fife Circle and takes 77 minutes to Haymarket.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C71214/2016/11/22/advanced

I can't imagine it runs slow for any reason, so I reckon it's longer via Dunfermline.

 

[Clansman]

Is it not theoretically quicker to go via the Fife Circle (if, hypothetically, we didn't have to worry about any other trains on the track), than along the coastal line? Does anyone have non-stop timings from Edinburgh to passing Markinch on both routes?

In the instance of both Voyager timings;

One which goes via Dunfermline, is timed for 31 minutes between Inverkeithing and Markinch, of which it calls at both.

Another with the same conditions going via Aberdour takes 22 minutes.

I imagine the curves around Glenrothes, and Thornton Junction are big contributors in the timings, thus judging by the above it's quicker going via Aberdour.

As said I reckon a viable investment as opposed to the construction of the Glenfarg route would be to invest in tilting Bi-Modes beyond 2030. Judging by the timings non stop from Edinburgh to Perth and Dundee, around 10 minutes could be shaved off in Fife and around 10 between Dundee and Leuchars. So Dundee is perfectly capable of reaching Edinburgh in an hour or under assuming you are running non stop from Haymarket. As for Perth, line improvements between Ladybank and Perth would need to take place if you were to shave more than 10 minutes from the route out with Fife.

Deviating from Fife, Dunblane to Perth has significant potential too. The line isn't too demanding for curves and looks perfectly capable of being improved to allow higher line running. The quality of track on the line is rather poor which makes the journey often very bumpy. Assuming the line was re-layed to better standards, as well as running tilting bi-modes you could probably reach Perth in an hour also by running non stop from Haymarket. Electrification of the route in 2018 would also contribute to a journey cut. All of these are assuming traffic wouldn't be a problem, which inevitably it already is.

Perth could be achievable in an hour going via Ladybank (and Aberdour) and Stirling. As for Dundee the only option is Ladybank (and Aberdour). All of which would have to be non stop from Haymarket.

 

[PaulLothian]

Despite being powered by steam, locomotives in 1895 were able to make the trip from the Capital to Dundee in just 57 minutes, historic timetables show – compared to today’s 64 minutes.

I am wondering, given the year quoted, whether this was a timing achieved during the 1895 Race to the North. I have read a detailed description of timings, but it's not in any book I own.

Can anyone shed light on this?

Have now tracked down one fast time! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_North#Fastest_runs

Nock picks out another exceptional run of a rather different nature. In the early hours of 22 August the NBR Holmes No. 293 4-4-0 left Waverley for Dundee with a load of 86 tons. The run, starting and finishing from at rest unlike the runs tabulated above and involving severe curves and other speed restrictions, took 59 minutes for the 59.2 miles (95.3 km), a speed of 60.2 mph (96.9 km/h). Nock, writing towards the end of the steam era in 1958, says that since World War I no train had done the run in less than 80 minutes.

So the the Labour Party uses one of the fastest-ever recorded steam rail journey times - with a light-weight and relativelty over-powered train, taking the least possible regard for passenger comfort, and running non-stop, delaying and inconveniencing many other passengers along the route - as a reasonable comparison with the relatively frequent, comfortable and convenient services that we now have. Whatever happens, don't let them run our rail services! And they feel justified in being rude about the SNP's lack of knowledge and experience in rail management...

 

[Ginaro]

I'm unsure on this to be honest.

A bit off your question here so apologies.

In response to the article, Perth and Dundee to Edinburgh could easily be achieved in an hour, theoretically. As long as you run non stop with tilting trains, which would combat the curves around Burntisland and Ladybank; tilting bi-Modes via Stirling would help also - so that would be the better option to minimise the cost of opening an entirely new line. But given the timescale of which this would happen I'd imagine there would be increased demand for the new line anyway by that point (around 2030 when the HSTs are gone).

Although I am a massive fan of reopening the line through Glenfarg. I'm getting sick and tired of Fife.

How fast do you think you would be able to run through Burntisland with a titling train? The current speed for an HST is signed as 40 mph.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Someone's taking something powerful. There's not a cat in hell's chance that Abellio are making anywhere this amount of profit. Perhaps people have forgotten that this is an Alliance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Everywhere in the UK trains are going more slowly than they used to; there are some good reasons for that (and probably some bad too) - two are the changes in safety rules and the increase in congestion. Both of these are under the Scottish Government's remit; to give one example of the second, when TS downscaled EGIP they took out the infrastrastructure improvements that would have made a real difference to journey times and instead spent money on building the shopping centre at Queen Street. That decision was made before Abellio even started...

The Scottish Government isn't paying for the shopping centre at Queen Street. It's paying for the redevelopment of the station, which is necessary for the 8-car operation that it's also paying for. In my opinion, using the window of opportunity presented by Queen Street HL being life-expired to extend the trains permanently is a good idea. Nothing they have done has precluded the shuttle being made 6tph in future, whereas the alternative would mean the station would be redeveloped as-is and without the possibility of 8 car services. Without the extra 2tph the other infrastructure interventions are simply not required in the EGIP timescale, although NR are still planning to do them anyway.

 

[Clansman]

How fast do you think you would be able to run through Burntisland with a titling train? The current speed for an HST is signed as 40 mph.

50-55mph tops, if you're lucky. Burntisland is a bloody nightmare for when it comes to improving journey times around that route.

But tilting trains would be a benefit elsewhere on the route than what little benefit it would provide around Burntisland.

 

[cf111]

Wires down this morning between Partick and Glasgow Central, disruption expected until mid-day. Will our esteemed Transport Minister be seen donning the sacred hard hat this week?

 

[Clansman]

Wires down this morning between Partick and Glasgow Central, disruption expected until mid-day. Will our esteemed Transport Minister be seen donning the sacred hard hat this week?

Hard hat, an overcoat and a poor attempt at an intriggued complexion of confidence.

Trust it to happen on the day he gives his announcement to Parliament regarding Scotrail.

' Was on a student trip to the Parliament last week and underwent a Q&A session with deputy First Minister, John Swinney - to which I challenged him regarding the railway. He was a bit tight lipped to say the least and gave me nothing of importance (not a surprise). Just stated that the SNP was committed to assisting Abellio in any way to honour the franchise contract - when I challenged him on his views on nationalisation, he just stated his desire to allow public sector bids in future. His expression said it all really - didn't hint any support of confidence towards Humza Yousaf; amid reports that he was losing faith within the party as his role as Transport Minister.

It'll be interesting to see what will come out of today's assembly, but no doubt the punter newspapers will be out in force from the get go.

 

[47271]

More like the scared hard hat.

So MSPs questions later today, yawn. It'll be interesting to see if any of them bother to do any real research or prep beforehand, or if they'll just flick through yesterday's Scotsman and complain that it takes longer to get to Dundee now than it did in the days of the North British.

 

[kylemore]

Wires down this morning between Partick and Glasgow Central, disruption expected until mid-day. Will our esteemed Transport Minister be seen donning the sacred hard hat this week?

Yes that must be the SNP's fault because the wires never ever come down anywhere else on NR!

 

[cf111]

Yes that must be the SNP's fault because the wires never ever come down anywhere else on NR!

I didn't blame the government but Yousuf has made a rod for his own back with what he's said recently.

 

[fairliered]

What a coincidence that it happened on the day of the announcement to Parliament.

If wonder if it will subsequently be found to have been caused by deliberate damage?

 

[380101]

Have now tracked down one fast time! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_North#Fastest_runs



So the the Labour Party uses one of the fastest-ever recorded steam rail journey times - with a light-weight and relativelty over-powered train, taking the least possible regard for passenger comfort, and running non-stop, delaying and inconveniencing many other passengers along the route - as a reasonable comparison with the relatively frequent, comfortable and convenient services that we now have. Whatever happens, don't let them run our rail services! And they feel justified in being rude about the SNP's lack of knowledge and experience in rail management...

I'm sure the current government are trying to achieve a journey time between Queen St and Waverly that was set in the 70s by a non stop loco hauled train. One of their weak reasons to get rid of the guard on the new EMUS to speed dwell times up. So it's not just Labour that fantasises about things like this.

As for today's statement to parliament by the transport minister, don't anyone hold your breath for him saying anything new. It'll be the same old story that he's been peddling the last few weeks which has resulted in him being backed into a corner and it's increasingly looking like he'll not get out it - whatever happens.

 

[HH]

The Scottish Government isn't paying for the shopping centre at Queen Street. It's paying for the redevelopment of the station, which is necessary for the 8-car operation that it's also paying for. In my opinion, using the window of opportunity presented by Queen Street HL being life-expired to extend the trains permanently is a good idea. Nothing they have done has precluded the shuttle being made 6tph in future, whereas the alternative would mean the station would be redeveloped as-is and without the possibility of 8 car services. Without the extra 2tph the other infrastructure interventions are simply not required in the EGIP timescale, although NR are still planning to do them anyway.

Do you deny that the redevelopment of the shopping centre forced changes on the station? Or that the requirement for 8-car trains was driven in the short term by not delivering 6tph now? Or that delivering 6-car x 6tph would have produced a better service for customers than 8-car x 4tph?