Class 700's - table-less bays in standard class

[Deepgreen]

The most basic requirement is low dwell time in the Core for recover purposes equivalent to 30tph
.

Indeed, but given that they are being fitted now anyway, they must surely, by definition, be compatible with low dwell times.

 

[Minstral25]

Personally, like many other people, I head for the facing bays of 4 as my knees won't fit in the airline seats without taking most of the seat next to me. The lack of leg room and narrow seats are why the 700's shall always be called the "New Pacers". A real shame because so much else about them is so good.

Considering the fact that Southern are locally our major providers of service (or in reality lack of) I have been surprised by how much time has been taken by ordinary commuters to provide vitriol and the dislike there is of these new units - purely based on inadequate seating

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, but given that they are being fitted now anyway, they must surely, by definition, be compatible with low dwell times.

Is there any firm evidence that they are being 'fitted now'?

I'd be quite surprised if any 700s ever arrive with tables from new in standard class areas, despite various quotes in the main 700 thread, where to be fair this subject has been covered in depth already.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if the 717s will get them? Being very much more of a proper metro service (all stations and a maximum of 35-40 minutes service or so) I would guess not, yet if the DfT has a change of view then perhaps they will?

 

[J-2739]

I wonder if the 717s will get them? Being very much more of a proper metro service (all stations and a maximum of 35-40 minutes service or so) I would guess not, yet if the DfT has a change of view then perhaps they will?

It would have been better if the 717s got longitudinal seats instead, but ok...

 

[Mordac]

I wonder if the 717s will get them? Being very much more of a proper metro service (all stations and a maximum of 35-40 minutes service or so) I would guess not, yet if the DfT has a change of view then perhaps they will?

Aren't those a GTR order. not a DfT specced one?

 

[jon0844]

Aren't those a GTR order. not a DfT specced one?

Not sure how it works given the contract, especially if TfL is already stating its intention to take over - meaning it may negotiate a spec to suit?

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any firm evidence that they are being 'fitted now'?

I'd be quite surprised if any 700s ever arrive with tables from new in standard class areas, despite various quotes in the main 700 thread, where to be fair this subject has been covered in depth already.

Nope, deal isn't done to my knowledge.

I wonder if the 717s will get them? Being very much more of a proper metro service (all stations and a maximum of 35-40 minutes service or so) I would guess not, yet if the DfT has a change of view then perhaps they will?

Nope, the 707 don't have seat back tables either.

See here for the finished model...

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p487954781/h7c6d9c7b#h7c6d9c7b

Aren't those a GTR order. not a DfT specced one?

Yes. Plugs and wifi, no toilets (like the 707s) IIRC

Not sure how it works given the contract, especially if TfL is already stating its intention to take over - meaning it may negotiate a spec to suit?

Nothing to do with TfL. Remember right not it's not agreed that will even get the routes but proposed. TfL has given its plan to DfT and awaits offical word.

 

[jon0844]

Nope, the 707 don't have seat back tables either.

See here for the finished model...

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p487954781/h7c6d9c7b#h7c6d9c7b

An odd mix there. SWT seating and a GN destination. What gives?

Nothing to do with TfL. Remember right not it's not agreed that will even get the routes but proposed. TfL has given its plan to DfT and awaits offical word.

I think we know it will be done - it's been mooted for almost ten years. But like the TL stickers, it will be too late or expensive to make changes to the train and any changes in operator won't affect trains already ordered.

So what's going to happen is a new livery and seat covers at some point in the future after introduction.

Perhaps if TfL doesn't take over until 2020-2022, the trains would need a refresh anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

An odd mix there. SWT seating and a GN destination. What gives?

Using any PIS data that they happened to have to hand when on test in Germany?

 

[Class377/5]

An odd mix there. SWT seating and a GN destination. What gives?

I think we know it will be done - it's been mooted for almost ten years. But like the TL stickers, it will be too late or expensive to make changes to the train and any changes in operator won't affect trains already ordered.

So what's going to happen is a new livery and seat covers at some point in the future after introduction.

Perhaps if TfL doesn't take over until 2020-2022, the trains would need a refresh anyway.

As part of the 700 testing they have a fully operational PIS with GPS locations around the track to test the PIS works correctly. Making a 707 version would add costs without any benefits.

Mooted does not mean It will happen. Crossrail was mooted for nearly 70 years, Thameslink extension for 20 years. And I'm not sure how the 717 will need a refresh then they are 2-3yrs old!

 

[jon0844]

Using any PIS data that they happened to have to hand when on test in Germany?

Yes, but the seats suggest these aren't the ones going to GN. The software is somewhat easier to change!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mooted does not mean It will happen. Crossrail was mooted for nearly 70 years, Thameslink extension for 20 years. And I'm not sure how the 717 will need a refresh then they are 2-3yrs old!

But TfL will definitely want to change the look early on, if not almost immediately. They won't wait.

Having said that, TfL may no longer have the money it once did. I still think it will want control of commuter transport into London. TfL has always wanted control of everything, and for the most part it works well.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, but the seats suggest these aren't the ones going to GN. The software is somewhat easier to change!

I don't quite see the point you are making, we already know these were 707s for SWT that were being demonstrated to the press.

It isn't that unreasonable for the test track to be set up to simulate Thameslink destinations as most units currently being tested are for Thameslink.

Have they started on the GN batch at all yet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vinyling the outside and swapping seat covers is not unduly expensive. Most TOCs end up doing this to their whole fleet not long after taking over on a new franchise regardless of if it is needed or not.

 

[hwl]

Crossrail was mooted for nearly 70 years, Thameslink extension for 20 years.

Both had their origins in the 1943 and 1944 London plans

 

[jon0844]

I don't quite see the point you are making, we already know these were 707s for SWT that were being demonstrated to the press.

It isn't that unreasonable for the test track to be set up to simulate Thameslink destinations as most units currently being tested are for Thameslink.

Have they started on the GN batch at all yet?

But I was only ever talking about the 717s. Now I assume the answer is that the layout and seat type will be the same, but with GTR covers, but that was my point.

The photo is not of a 717, or else they'll have to change the seats. It is merely a 707 with a GN destination on the display. Hence there's possibly no photo of a real, or mock-up, 717 as yet.

I would very much doubt that a metro service would get tables or power sockets (I believe they do get Wi-Fi), but I asked nonetheless.

 

[hwl]

I don't quite see the point you are making, we already know these were 707s for SWT that were being demonstrated to the press.

It isn't that unreasonable for the test track to be set up to simulate Thameslink destinations as most units currently being tested are for Thameslink.

Have they started on the GN batch at all yet?

Exactly - If the test track is set up for testing 700s both now and for another 18months why not just use that as they are just UK names on TL network applied in the software to GPS coordinates on the test track etc.

As delivery of the first 717s is at least 18 months away compared to 707 starting in a few weeks one suspects they will be focused on 700s and 707s!

 

[jon0844]

Indeed, which means everyone missed my point unless I wrote 707 by mistake? I was asking if the 717s might get tables, given that multiple sources are saying the 700s will at some point retrospectively.

The PIS is irrelevant. It's clearly not the latest software, which will get many updates between now and 2018 anyway. Wish I'd not mentioned it now when printing out the photo was a SWT train.

 

[Skimble19]

But I was only ever talking about the 717s. Now I assume the answer is that the layout and seat type will be the same, but with GTR covers, but that was my point.

The photo is not of a 717, or else they'll have to change the seats. It is merely a 707 with a GN destination on the display. Hence there's possibly no photo of a real, or mock-up, 717 as yet.

I would very much doubt that a metro service would get tables or power sockets (I believe they do get Wi-Fi), but I asked nonetheless.

As far as I know the only 717 mock up is of the (rather white fronted!) cab, complete with working drop down door on the front.

 

[Class377/5]

717 are unlikely to get tables as being pure metro units (no toilets).

No final images of the 717 exist publicly yet as final design changes were yet to be signed off when it was announced Siemens had won. Properly won't be far off tho.

The first 717 in service will be within 18 months time so first delivery should happen after the final 707 deliveries which start in two weeks.