Guardian article: Passenger failed to show railcard, opinons?

[Agent_c]

This would work for 16-25 railcards, and I think Forces.

Network Railcard, Annual Gold Card both allow tickets for up to 4 adults to be discounted, plus several children. I believe senior railcards can also have accomanying (grand)children. Family and Friends Railcards always discount at least two tickets and can currently be issued to two adults. Disabled railcards allow two tickets to be discounted as well. Then there's the two together railcard ...

Two together has photos and signatures of both persons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barriers are the problem here, really. Were there no barriers, having the tickets of 4 adults and 4 children loaded onto one Railcard would not be an issue.

 

[island]

It's a shame that the customer wasn't given the benefit of the doubt and told to produce their railcard at their nearest Virgin booking office (i.e. home station) within 5- 7 days so that that the excess paid on the train could be refunded. If course, if the customer could not produce the evidence, then they could not apply for a refund and they would have learnt a valuable lesson.

Is that too easy or just naive thinking?

As explained above, it allows the genuine Railcard holder to give the Railcard to his mate who uses it normally, and then (if inspected, and if the inspector even asks for the Railcard) pays and gets refunded later. So the Railcard gets double usage. To say nothing of the administrative overhead that the station and some central processing unit would have to take on.

 

[philthetube]

I do think a similar concession to that given to season ticket holders would be helpful. So if a customer forget their railcard twice within a 12 month period they could have their PF cancelled or additional ticket refunded upon submitting a copy of their railcard. The beauty with only being allowed to do it twice within a 12 month period is that people would not be able to do it often and it would, of course, be best to keep as a back up for if one was making a longer (more expensive) trip in case they lost their railcard.

I do think that the above facility granted to season ticket holders up to twice a year, should also be extend to persons holding concessionary travel passes and PTE issued passes which are valid on trains. It is always a concern of mine that I would get a PF on Merseyrail if I had mislaid my concessionary pass. I am not saying I would by any means take advantage of having two chances a year to have it cancelled, but it would give some peace of mind.

The problem with this is that in this case the saving was over £300, well worth chancing until you get caught.

 

[rs101]

As explained above, it allows the genuine Railcard holder to give the Railcard to his mate who uses it normally, and then (if inspected, and if the inspector even asks for the Railcard) pays and gets refunded later. So the Railcard gets double usage. To say nothing of the administrative overhead that the station and some central processing unit would have to take on.

Why not print the person's name on the Railcars?

 

[DaleCooper]

Why not print the person's name on the Railcars?

They do.

 

[najaB]

I can't understand why this is still going. Are we all agreed that a railcard discounted ticket is only valid if presented along with the railcard?

If so, then we have a simple matter of someone being on a train without a valid ticket in which case one of three things would normally happen, they would be:

• Asked to purchase a new, full fare ticket on the spot for the journey being taken.
• Asked to purchase a new, full fare ticket the next station where they would be expected to alight
• Issued with a UFN for the full fare for the journey being taken.

Alternatively, they could be reported for potential prosecution.

All these comparisons to season tickets are nothing more than distractions - we wouldn't expect Joe Bloggs who forgot his Advance single to be able to present it later for a refund.

 

[rs101]

I can't understand why this is still going. Are we all agreed that a railcard discounted ticket is only valid if presented along with the railcard?

If so, then we have a simple matter of someone being on a train without a valid ticket in which case one of three things would normally happen, they would be:

• Asked to purchase a new, full fare ticket on the spot for the journey being taken.
• Asked to purchase a new, full fare ticket the next station where they would be expected to alight
• Issued with a UFN for the full fare for the journey being taken.

Alternatively, they could be reported for potential prosecution.

All these comparisons to season tickets are nothing more than distractions - we wouldn't expect Joe Bloggs who forgot his Advance single to be able to present it later for a refund.

I think some of us are considering how the current process could be modified to help improve the customer services aspect of this. The letter of the law does indeed demand what you've said, but a normal business which actually has to consider customer attitudes (to a large extent many TOCs don't as there's no competition) would have implemented alternate procedures which don't overly penalise innocent mistakes like this.

 

[najaB]

...alternate procedures which don't overly penalise innocent mistakes like this.

I don't get how paying the walk-up fare for the journey actually made is an excessive penalty. It's exactly what would have happened had it been a non railcard-discounted ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't get how paying the walk-up fare for the journey actually made is an excessive penalty. It's exactly what would have happened had it been a non railcard-discounted ticket.

The fare in question was an advance though, it wasn't a discounted walk-up.

 

[najaB]

The fare in question was an advance though, it wasn't a discounted walk-up.

The passengers had Advance tickets with railcard discount. They weren't able to produce the railcard so were required to purchase a full fare walk-up ticket for the journey they were making.

That's exactly what would have happened had they failed to produce non railcard discounted tickets, so I can't see how they were being 'overly penalised'. I don't get why railcard holders should get a 'free pass' where non-railcard holders don't.

 

[rs101]

The passengers had Advance tickets with railcard discount. They weren't able to produce the railcard so were required to purchase a full fare walk-up ticket for the journey they were making.

That's exactly what would have happened had they failed to produce non railcard discounted tickets, so I can't see how they were being 'overly penalised'. I don't get why railcard holders should get a 'free pass' where non-railcard holders don't.

Possibly making them pay the difference between their discounted and the normal advance price would be reasonable.
I don't see any issue allowing the customer one or two chances where the penalty can be refunded once they prove they had a valid railcard, in the same way that season ticket holders are treated by some TOCs.

It all comes down to a balance between penalising those deliberately traveling without valid tickets and treating those who make honest mistakes ( like temporarily misplacing a railcard) sensibly.

 

[Phil.]

I don't get how paying the walk-up fare for the journey actually made is an excessive penalty. It's exactly what would have happened had it been a non railcard-discounted ticket.

It's excessive because the passenger has already paid some of the fare due. All the TOC has to do is to get the passenger to pay the difference then the TOC is in receipt of the full fare due. They haven't lost revenue. Making the passenger pay again for a full ticket is tantamount to a double punishment. Try and understand this, if you get nicked for (insert crime of choice here) and spend one month in cells on remand before your trial which results in a six month prison sentence you'll only be in prison for five months as you've already spent one month inside.

 

[fowler9]

It's excessive because the passenger has already paid some of the fare due. All the TOC has to do is to get the passenger to pay the difference then the TOC is in receipt of the full fare due. They haven't lost revenue. Making the passenger pay again for a full ticket is tantamount to a double punishment. Try and understand this, if you get nicked for (insert crime of choice here) and spend one month in cells on remand before your trial which results in a six month prison sentence you'll only be in prison for five months as you've already spent one month inside.

There is possibly the cost of the additional admin for dealing with the indiscretion, that said I don't doubt for a second that the cost of that admin is already included when a company decides how much to charge for a ticket. I wouldn't be surprised if a modern company tried to charge twice for that though, they would, I imagine, incorporate possible losses in to the correct cost of the ticket. (That is just speculation). I possibly repeated myself there but I claim diminished responsibility after having a beer following a late shift.

 

[yorkie]

The passengers had Advance tickets with railcard discount. They weren't able to produce the railcard so were required to purchase a full fare walk-up ticket for the journey they were making.

That's exactly what would have happened had they failed to produce non railcard discounted tickets, so I can't see how they were being 'overly penalised'. I don't get why railcard holders should get a 'free pass' where non-railcard holders don't.

You're entitled to that view but many people believe that the rail industry overly penalises people by making no allowance for the fare already paid in situations like this.

In some situations, an allowance is made. In others, it is not. Sometimes it can seem pretty arbitrary as to whether or not the full fare is charged as if no ticket was held, or the difference is charged.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It all comes down to a balance between penalising those deliberately traveling without valid tickets and treating those who make honest mistakes ( like temporarily misplacing a railcard) sensibly.

Indeed, but some train companies believe that people who make mistakes in certain circumstances should be liable to either pay the full, unaccounted 'Anytime fare' or even be charged a Penalty Fare.

And there will always be a queue of people agreeing with such a policy, though obviously the overall general population would see it as absurd.

 

[najaB]

You're entitled to that view but many people believe that the rail industry overly penalises people by making no allowance for the fare already paid in situations like this.

Then allow them a refund on the original ticket later minus an admin fee. And do the same across the board for all passengers who are found sans-ticket. I don't have an issue with making an allowance for the fare already paid*, I just don't get why railcard holders are being treated like some kind of beings from a higher dimension.

*Edit: Provided there is evidence that the passenger actually paid it and isn't presenting a ticket that could have been picked up/passed to them.

 

[DaleCooper]

Much of the discussion has been about the general case of a forgotten or lost railcard, that's fine but let's not forget the specifics of this case. This passenger showed the train manager a photo of their railcard which may well have sounded alarm bells (it does for me), in other circumstances the passenger might have been treated differently.

 

[rs101]

Much of the discussion has been about the general case of a forgotten or lost railcard, that's fine but let's not forget the specifics of this case. This passenger showed the train manager a photo of their railcard which may well have sounded alarm bells (it does for me), in other circumstances the passenger might have been treated differently.

I took a photo of my Network Railcard recently - I'd just renewed it and wanted to make a note of the number. By taking a picture on my phone, it was automatically backed up to Google's cloud storage, so far safer than the piece of paper given to me by the ticket office.

Not that anyone wanted to see it on a recent trip from Manningtree to Heathrow - despite the tickets being checked 4 times, not once was I asked for the Railcard.

 

[randyrippley]

so what would have happened if the passenger had been unable to pay for the new tickets? Would they have been kicked off? Or met at the destination by the police / revenue protection? In which case, having found the card in the meantime there would presumably be no case to answer? It seems to me that the best option for the passenger would have been to claim an inability to pay for the replacement tickets, take a gamble on the train crew not wanting the bad publicity of ejecting a disabled passenger, and try to find the card during the journey (as was done)

 

[alastair]

I took a photo of my Network Railcard recently - I'd just renewed it and wanted to make a note of the number. By taking a picture on my phone, it was automatically backed up to Google's cloud storage, so far safer than the piece of paper given to me by the ticket office.

Not that anyone wanted to see it on a recent trip from Manningtree to Heathrow - despite the tickets being checked 4 times, not once was I asked for the Railcard.

Indeed,I have had Network and now Senior railcards for many years. It is extremely rare (10% of journeys or less) to be asked for sight of them when tickets are checked. Thats in SWT/GWR area anyway.

 

[exile]

Indeed,I have had Network and now Senior railcards for many years. It is extremely rare (10% of journeys or less) to be asked for sight of them when tickets are checked. Thats in SWT/GWR area anyway.

Exactly - the impression is given that staff don't apply the rules consistently which (1) gives the potential fraudster more opportunities (in evening journeys in my area it's rare for tickets to be checked at all) (2) causes the honest
passenger who makes a mistake the feeling they're being unfairly treated.

Hopefully, when railcards and tickets both become fully electronic the problem
will diminish. That is, when you buy the ticket you will have the railcard discount applied on providing proof that you're entitled to it, and that will be the end of it.

 

[35B]

Exactly - the impression is given that staff don't apply the rules consistently which (1) gives the potential fraudster more opportunities (in evening journeys in my area it's rare for tickets to be checked at all) (2) causes the honest
passenger who makes a mistake the feeling they're being unfairly treated.

Hopefully, when railcards and tickets both become fully electronic the problem
will diminish. That is, when you buy the ticket you will have the railcard discount applied on providing proof that you're entitled to it, and that will be the end of it.

All I can say is that the design of systems needs to improve a lot before all electronic is a viable proposition.

 

[exile]

All I can say is that the design of systems needs to improve a lot before all electronic is a viable proposition.

The rail industry needs to work on this urgently, its competitors are leaving it far behind. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation described in the OP the publicity it attracts is appalling.

 

[fowler9]

The rail industry needs to work on this urgently, its competitors are leaving it far behind. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation described in the OP the publicity it attracts is appalling.

I would agree in this situation but at the same time, as I have mentioned before I think, I have had so much discretion shown to myself in the past that I think that a lot of railway staff are already doing what they think is best rather than applying the letter of the law so to say. The thing is I would never go and big up someone for letting me off with an honest mistake in case they got done for it. Anyone who got done for an honest mistake that was still against the rules will obviously blow up the staff involved and make the TOC involved look bad. It is a shame. The law is an ass. Ha ha.

 

[dave87016]

If I had been in the exact same predicament as the OP then on arrival at Euston I would have gone to the booking office at Euston explained what had happened showed the railcard which I had now found and asked for some kind of endorsement of produced railcard along with a official stamp then sent it to Virgin and if the outcome was a refund then great but if not well an expensive lesson learnt

after all when railcards are purchased they have to sign them and abide the T & C's stated

 

[AM9]

Maybe I'm being naïve here, but is there a good reason why rail passengers can't carry their railcard with whatever payment method they normally use for the travel and store their ticket for the journey.
For anybody who uses plastic (debit or credit), the railcard is the same size and can easily be accomodated as just another card. A large number of people use some kind of paper cash container, (wallet/purse).
It seems to me that the old 'railway is a public service' attitude is promoted to the level of an automatic right where failures to adhere to the agreed rules are excused, despite the possibility of fraudulent travel being ever present.

 

[DaleCooper]

Maybe I'm being naïve here, but is there a good reason why rail passengers can't carry their railcard with whatever payment method they normally use for the travel and store their ticket for the journey.
For anybody who uses plastic (debit or credit), the railcard is the same size and can easily be accomodated as just another card. A large number of people use some kind of paper cash container, (wallet/purse).
It seems to me that the old 'railway is a public service' attitude is promoted to the level of an automatic right where failures to adhere to the agreed rules are excused, despite the possibility of fraudulent travel being ever present.

You're not being naive, when I got my railcard I was given a handy little wallet with room for the railcard together with outbound and return tickets so mine are always together. The one time I forgot my railcard I realised it was missing when I went to buy a ticket so bought a full price one instead. You would think that the person in question, who spends £5000 p.a. on rail travel, would be more organised.

 

[rs101]

Maybe I'm being naïve here, but is there a good reason why rail passengers can't carry their railcard with whatever payment method they normally use for the travel and store their ticket for the journey.
For anybody who uses plastic (debit or credit), the railcard is the same size and can easily be accomodated as just another card. A large number of people use some kind of paper cash container, (wallet/purse).
It seems to me that the old 'railway is a public service' attitude is promoted to the level of an automatic right where failures to adhere to the agreed rules are excused, despite the possibility of fraudulent travel being ever present.

I use my Network Railcard about a dozen times a year at most, so don't see any point having it in my wallet all the time (especially as they never gave me a plastic holder for it for the last 2 years and the old one has disintegrated...) . Mine goes in my wallet, but if my girlfriend is using hers, she just chucks it into the handbag as the purse is full..

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe I'm being naïve here, but is there a good reason why rail passengers can't carry their railcard with whatever payment method they normally use for the travel and store their ticket for the journey.
For anybody who uses plastic (debit or credit), the railcard is the same size and can easily be accomodated as just another card. A large number of people use some kind of paper cash container, (wallet/purse).
It seems to me that the old 'railway is a public service' attitude is promoted to the level of an automatic right where failures to adhere to the agreed rules are excused, despite the possibility of fraudulent travel being ever present.

No you are not being naive.
When you apply for whatever railcard you are told several times that it MUST be carried at all times and presented with the relevant ticket. You agree to those terms when you buy the card.

My Disabled Card is in the plastic holder I got with my Oyster card and the rail tickets put in the other side. On the one occasion I forgot the "pouch" I bought a full price ticket. My own stupid fault and not one to blame the TOC for!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I use my Network Railcard about a dozen times a year at most, so don't see any point having it in my wallet all the time (especially as they never gave me a plastic holder for it for the last 2 years and the old one has disintegrated...) . Mine goes in my wallet, but if my girlfriend is using hers, she just chucks it into the handbag as the purse is full..

There is nothing to stop you asking at the booking office for a new wallet. I recently did so for my network card