Air quality in stations if electrification curbed.

[superkev]

With the government looking to have lost faith in network rail and its electrification contractors I wonder if anyone has considered the air quality issue particularly NOx and micro particles of old diesel trains in some of the more cramped stations like new street or even in tunnels.
K

 

[Envoy]

Birmingham New Street station has pollution levels well above the safe limit. You can also smell fumes when travelling through tunnels such as the Severn. Public health is even at risk at station with ‘open skies’.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/wha...nnel-4s-dispatches-exposes-dangerous-10928734

A leading Birmingham pollution expert has accused Network Rail of “burying its head in the sand” with regards to his findings of potentially dangerous levels of pollutants at New Street Station.

Preliminary research conducted by the University of Birmingham’s Professor John Thornes found almost seven times the annual average EU limit of particulate matter on one platform.

 

[sprinterguy]

Air pollution problems at New Street have been compounded jointly by the move towards a multiple unit operated railway at a station designed for traditional passenger trains with a big locomotive out in the open at the platform end, increased frequencies on many routes and the cessation of changes to electric traction wherever possible when Virgin introduced the Voyagers. At New Street Crosscountry are probably most of at fault on all these points as a result of inheriting Virgin's Voyager fleet, with their big, fuel thirsty engines on every vehicle, and their fall out from Operation Princess, with a high frequency of services in all directions focused on New Street as a central hub.

As such, policy on passenger traction over the last 20 - 30 years is probably more to blame for increasing pollution levels at major stations than the attitude towards electrification.

 

[superkev]

Birmingham New Street station has pollution levels well above the safe limit. You can also smell fumes when travelling through tunnels such as the Severn. Public health is even at risk at station with ‘open skies’.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/wha...nnel-4s-dispatches-exposes-dangerous-10928734

QUOTE:>A leading Birmingham pollution expert has accused Network Rail of “burying its head in the sand” with regards to his findings of potentially dangerous levels of pollutants at New Street Station.

Preliminary research conducted by the University of Birmingham’s Professor John Thornes found almost seven times the annual average EU limit of particulate matter on one platform. END QUOTE.

Hmm and I thought they had just spent a huge amount of money at new street.
K

 

[yorkie]

Hmm and I thought they had just spent a huge amount of money at new street.
K

They have, but nothing is going to change regarding air quality if the current rolling stock continues to be used.

 

[Phil.]

It's awful in St. Pancras Eurostar when there's an H.S.T. burbling away in P1-4.

 

[Busaholic]

It's awful in St. Pancras Eurostar when there's an H.S.T. burbling away in P1-4.

Not to mention your home station (and mine).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Manchester Victoria through platforms can get rather unpleasant in winter: the cold air tends to trap the fumes. The presence of the great concrete hulk called Manchester Arena right on top means unless the wind is more or less easterly or westerly the only ventilation comes from the purpose built fans above the platforms. Safe to say these often don't work as advertised. And apparently the Arena would rather they didn't work at all as the vibrations go right through the structure.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When any of the modern DMUs are parked up after terminating (either in a platform or carriage sidings), will all engines normally be shutdown?

I believe that all approaches to Birmingham New Street have a low max speed so could they run through that area on half of their engines, cutting down on pollution levels?

 

[furnessvale]

Hmm and I thought they had just spent a huge amount of money at new street.
K

But obviously not on air extraction and/or filtration. Bit of an omission really, knowing what stock uses the station.

 

[najaB]

But obviously not on air extraction and/or filtration. Bit of an omission really, knowing what stock uses the station.

The thing is, they were designing/building a station for the next 50 years, most of the diesel stock was supposed to be disappearing in 5 to 10 years. I'm sure that they looked at it and thought that the cost/benefit didn't stack up.

 

[furnessvale]

The thing is, they were designing/building a station for the next 50 years, most of the diesel stock was supposed to be disappearing in 5 to 10 years. I'm sure that they looked at it and thought that the cost/benefit didn't stack up.

I appreciate what you say but I don't think subjecting passengers and staff to excessive levels of pollution for 5-10 years on a new build is acceptable.

 

[christhebull]

I wouldn't describe it as being as noticeable at Bristol Temple Meads as at some of the other stations mentioned, as only part of the station is enclosed; however the city already has significant air quality issues, so the recently truncated GWML electrification isn't exactly helping things.

 

[Phil.]

Not to mention your home station (and mine).

Almost certainly true but fortunately I don't have to hang around there for hours at a time like I used to in St. Panhandle.

 

[superkev]

I wouldn't describe it as being as noticeable at Bristol Temple Meads as at some of the other stations mentioned, as only part of the station is enclosed; however the city already has significant air quality issues, so the recently truncated GWML electrification isn't exactly helping things.

I believe it's the stuff you don't see like NOX and microparticles that's the health hazzard.
K

 

[Kite159]

Manchester Victoria through platforms can get rather unpleasant in winter: the cold air tends to trap the fumes. The presence of the great concrete hulk called Manchester Arena right on top means unless the wind is more or less easterly or westerly the only ventilation comes from the purpose built fans above the platforms. Safe to say these often don't work as advertised. And apparently the Arena would rather they didn't work at all as the vibrations go right through the structure.

Agreed there, I was there last Saturday and you can smell the fumes when going over the footbridge to reach the through platforms

 

[HSTEd]

Well in the glorious new bi-mode future Birmingham New Street should have significantly improved air quality since all the trains there will be running on electric power.
But Bristol Temple Meads is screwed now electrification has effectively been axed.

 

[coppercapped]

Well in the glorious new bi-mode future Birmingham New Street should have significantly improved air quality since all the trains there will be running on electric power.
But Bristol Temple Meads is screwed now electrification has effectively been axed.

The "bi-modes" will all have engines meeting the Euro Stage IIIB regulations for emissions. You do know what that is?

The electrification has only been 'axed' until the track rearrangements on Filton Bank and the immediate station have been completed as well as the necessary ac-immune resignalling is done.

 

[HSTEd]

The "bi-modes" will all have engines meeting the Euro Stage IIIB regulations for emissions. You do know what that is?

It will mean they produce less emissions in the test regime than the previous generation of engines. That is about it.

The electrification has only been 'axed' until the track rearrangements on Filton Bank and the immediate station have been completed as well as the necessary ac-immune resignalling is done.

And yet it has been postponed indefinitely according to the GW electrification thread.

 

[J-2739]

Sooo...there's no ventilation to disperse the fumes? Does it remain peoples second breakfast in the morning commute?

 

[coppercapped]

It will mean they produce less emissions in the test regime than the previous generation of engines. That is about it.

The ignorance and arrogance of some of the posts here never fail to disappoint me.

And yet it has been postponed indefinitely according to the GW electrification thread.

'Postponed' is not the same as 'axed'. Look the meanings up.

The completion has been pushed back to the next control period because signal engineers and money are in short supply. Money is in short supply because NR has effectively been nationalised.

As NR's expenditure for the next Control Period has not yet been determined it is hardly possible to be more precise.

 

[QueensCurve]

Birmingham New Street station has pollution levels well above the safe limit. You can also smell fumes when travelling through tunnels such as the Severn. Public health is even at risk at station with ‘open skies’.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/wha...nnel-4s-dispatches-exposes-dangerous-10928734

Back t the 1970s I noticed the poor air quality at New St. They effectively went underground like Bern but did not have the advantage of Bern's all-electric traction.

Euston in those days was all-electric and the air quality good. This was lost when BR adopted the policy of having no locomotive changes in the mid 1980s. I understand the reason for this, but a sad day in my view.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ignorance and arrogance of some of the posts here never fail to disappoint me.

'Postponed' is not the same as 'axed'. Look the meanings up.

The two have different meanings, but some of the cynics among us have half a century of observing politicians and suspect one might be code for the other.

 

[DarloRich]

With the government looking to have lost faith in network rail and its electrification contractors I wonder if anyone has considered the air quality issue particularly NOx and micro particles of old diesel trains in some of the more cramped stations like new street or even in tunnels.
K

WOW! Have people just noticed this? Surely it is nothing new and must be better than when we had lots of large diesel engines running in and out of stations..............

 

[Bletchleyite]

WOW! Have people just noticed this? Surely it is nothing new and must be better than when we had lots of large diesel engines running in and out of stations..............

Certainly at New St DMUs (such as stinking, filthy Voyagers) are the problem - locomotives and HST power cars sit outside the covered area (and the trainshed at most termini) so passengers don't get to breathe the fug. Even at through stations the fumes would only be emitted for a short period.

If the spare Voyager is left idling, as it occasionally is, the atmosphere at platform level at New St is barely breathable.

 

[Dave1987]

The two have different meanings, but some of the cynics among us have half a century of observing politicians and suspect one might be code for the other.

Indeed, especially when the politicians start giving extremely cagey answers when pushed on when it would be completed. If it was a priority they would commit to when it would be completed, just like they have done before, they won't so it's clearly not a priority so I'm definitely believing one is code for the other.

 

[DarloRich]

Certainly at New St DMUs (such as stinking, filthy Voyagers) are the problem - locomotives and HST power cars sit outside the covered area (and the trainshed at most termini) so passengers don't get to breathe the fug. Even at through stations the fumes would only be emitted for a short period.

If the spare Voyager is left idling, as it occasionally is, the atmosphere at platform level at New St is barely breathable.

Many people here may not be old enough to remember proper trains or the smoke screens the used to lay down. I do. it is nowhere near as bad as in the past. Honestly.

And to suggest we will all keel over because we don't have electric trains is bonkers. ( and over looks the damage done in generating the electricity in the first place!)

 

[Dr Hoo]

There seem to be some suggestions that Birmingham New Street station had its ventilation system removed as part of the recent upgrade. However, coverage of the rebuilding frequently referred to 'improved' systems with around 98 fans, costing £1.2m. This supposedly works on the basis of actual pollution levels rather than arbitrarily switching on and off every time a train (quite probably electric) enters or leaves the station. This reduces energy consumption.
The system is also better configured for fire suppression and smoke control, given that the original system was never designed for an 'underground' environment that New Street was subsequently deemed to be after the King's Cross fire.
Can those claiming that there is no system support their assertion with any evidence that the published descriptions are a complete con?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many people here may not be old enough to remember proper trains or the smoke screens the used to lay down. I do. it is nowhere near as bad as in the past. Honestly.

I am old enough, and it isn't nowhere near as bad in the past because of the positioning of the locomotive exhaust vs DMU exhaust.

Heritage DMUs kicked out a hell of a lot of filth, of course.

And to suggest we will all keel over because we don't have electric trains is bonkers. ( and over looks the damage done in generating the electricity in the first place!)

This is about the point of use. If you chuck out a load of fumes in a remote area it doesn't have such a significant effect. That's what low-emission zones and the likes are about - so long as we generate electricity using fossil fuels, moving the pollution to where it harms fewer people is all electric cars achieve. Doesn't mean it's not worth using them.

To be fair, DB have had this one right for years (and GWR) - shut the engines down until right up to departure, and use shore supplies at termini for aircon, lights etc if required.

 

[DarloRich]

I am old enough, and it isn't nowhere near as bad in the past because of the positioning of the locomotive exhaust vs DMU exhaust.

Heritage DMUs kicked out a hell of a lot of filth, of course.

A 56 on a loaded coal train through Sunderland was interesting. It was like a Tiger tank trying to escape an engagement!

Modern trains don't ( to coin an awfully spotterish phrase) "clag" like they used to. Look at a Deltic pulling away or a 47 ejecting one of those mad black columns out of the exhaust and tell me there is an air pollution problem in stations today

This is about the point of use. If you chuck out a load of fumes in a remote area it doesn't have such a significant effect. That's what low-emission zones and the likes are about - so long as we generate electricity using fossil fuels, moving the pollution to where it harms fewer people is all electric cars achieve. Doesn't mean it's not worth using them.

To be fair, DB have had this one right for years (and GWR) - shut the engines down until right up to departure, and use shore supplies at termini for aircon, lights etc if required.

Most people are in the station for a few minutes so their exposure will be negligible and i would bet little more than standing at a busy pedestrian crossing in a city. I really don't think there is a serious problem.

 

[snowball]

Indeed, especially when the politicians start giving extremely cagey answers when pushed on when it would be completed. If it was a priority they would commit to when it would be completed, just like they have done before, they won't so it's clearly not a priority so I'm definitely believing one is code for the other.

The politicians have no option but to be cagey because the experience of the last 3 years has taught them that if they commit to a date, it will not be achieved, or the assigned budget will be vastly exceeded, or more probably both. They have learned the hard way that committing to a date does not magically cause it to be achieved.