Potential Rail Disruption from Storm Angus - 20/11

[Phil.]

Buses are required to drive on sight, and have this thing called steering.

Does that make bus drivers better than train drivers in that they have more to do?

 

[gavin]

Statement from Network Rail

 

[Llanigraham]

Stop being so childish!

As I've already said, if trees are down nobody expects trains to run, it's just the negativity of Southeastern. Anyway lets see what transpires on the weather front.

How do they know trees are down when railway lines are more "remote" than roads, and do not have so much other traffic using it?

 

[Antman]

How do they know trees are down when railway lines are more "remote" than roads, and do not have so much other traffic using it?

Seems the wording has now changed to there may not be any trains before 10.00 depending on the weather situation which is a bit more reasonable, certainly no sign of any extreme weather thus far.

 

[DelayRepay]

Seems the wording has now changed to there may not be any trains before 10.00 depending on the weather situation which is a bit more reasonable, certainly no sign of any extreme weather thus far.

But it might be better to say "there won't be" so people make alternative plans if they need to travel.

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably the most pointless posting of the year?:roll:

If there are trees down then obviously nobody will expect trains, but if they're not....................!!

Thanks for the award. I'll put it with the others.

Having been in the cab of a train that came round a corner at 100mph+ to find a tree on the line, I can advise it is not a pleasant experience. Buses are driven on sight, and are therefore expected to stop if there is an obstruction on the road. Obviously this doesn't apply to trains.

I've also been in a TOC control on a day when the number of trains that hit obstructions on the line was into double figures, resulting in an effective network shut down for most of the day whilst it was cleared up. Tens of thousands of passengers were stranded on trains, many in difficult circumstances. Some of the trains were out of service for the next six months. Some drivers were injured.

Had we done daylight route proving, whilst there would have been no service for the first few hours, none of this would have happened, and we would have run a decent service from mid morning.

Perhaps, then, it might be a precaution worth taking rather than 'giving up'?

 

[al78]

Seems the wording has now changed to there may not be any trains before 10.00 depending on the weather situation which is a bit more reasonable, certainly no sign of any extreme weather thus far.

It hasn't arrived yet in the SE. It is pouring down with rain in Horsham but no strong winds yet. The worst is expected to pass through overnight and conditions should be improving after sunrise. It is looking like the strongest winds from the storm will be in the channel and the north coast of France, the south of England is likely to escape the worst, although 70mph gusts is enough to blow down weaker trees.

 

[Wivenswold]

Seems the wording has now changed to there may not be any trains before 10.00 depending on the weather situation which is a bit more reasonable, certainly no sign of any extreme weather thus far.

A proper read of the forecast would have revealed that the worst was coming in the early hours. It's not just trees that can cause problems, there's a lot of rain fall tonight which could lead to landslides.

Let's not also forget that the drivers will have to struggle through the weather. I think some simply don't understand the logistics of railway operations. As an expert on weather, I can say with confidence that most of the people I meet haven't got a clue how that works either.

 

[Antman]

A proper read of the forecast would have revealed that the worst was coming in the early hours. It's not just trees that can cause problems, there's a lot of rain fall tonight which could lead to landslides.

Let's not also forget that the drivers will have to struggle through the weather. I think some simply don't understand the logistics of railway operations. As an expert on weather, I can say with confidence that most of the people I meet haven't got a clue how that works either.

Well I'm out and about and all I've seen is a bit of drizzle and some light to moderate wind, I've not seen a dustbin blown over yet let alone a tree!

 

[pompeyfan]

In struggling to understand what's so difficult to understand? NR and TOCs have Run trains around at reduced speed and empty, if there's a tree on the line there's more chance the driver will be able to stop the train short of the obstruction, or reduce the damage caused. Once it's clear there's no obstruction open the route.
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Well I'm out and about and all I've seen is a bit of drizzle and some light to moderate wind, I've not seen a dustbin blown over yet let alone a tree!

Hampshire and West Sussex took the brunt of the storm, if you're in London you wouldn't have noticed it as much.

 

[Class 466]

There are currently 4 fallen trees reported so far this morning. There's also 2 track circuit failures being investigated.

 

[Antman]

In struggling to understand what's so difficult to understand? NR and TOCs have Run trains around at reduced speed and empty, if there's a tree on the line there's more chance the driver will be able to stop the train short of the obstruction, or reduce the damage caused. Once it's clear there's no obstruction open the route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hampshire and West Sussex took the brunt of the storm, if you're in London you wouldn't have noticed it as much.

Yet SWT are running more train than Southeastern who of course threw in the towel last night.

 

[DelayRepay]

Here is my view as a humble passenger:

I would rather know the night before that there was going to be a problem, so I could make alternate plans. This is better than arriving at the station at my normal time and finding no trains, or massive delays. If they say "there will be no trains until 10", then I am justified in cancelling a meeting which is booked at 9. If they give a wishy-washy "there might be problems but it all depends" then it becomes harder to plan.

I think it's not just about trees blowing over but also all the other junk that ends up getting blown onto rail lines or stuck in the wires. I think trampolines were a common problem last year.

I would not want to be on a train that hit something and then had to be rescued. Done that before and it meant an hours delay including some time without heating as the power had to be turned off.

 

[gavin]

Speed restrictions of 50mph are in place on the following routes

- Winchester to Weymouth
- Guildford to Portsmouth
- Farnham to Alton
- Portsmouth to Eastleigh
- Portsmouth to St Denys
- Romsey to Eastleigh and Redbridge

Delays or cancellations are expected all day

 

[t_star2001uk]

In struggling to understand what's so difficult to understand? NR and TOCs have Run trains around at reduced speed and empty, if there's a tree on the line there's more chance the driver will be able to stop the train short of the obstruction, or reduce the damage caused. Once it's clear there's no obstruction open the route.

This was the result of train vs tree last year

 

[Trainfan344]

Looks like DK1 got through Thetford Forest okay.

 

[PHILIPE]

Two Plymouth bound XC Voyagers last night terminated Exeter. The previous one ran wrong line through Dawlish but reported engine and some lights out.
This was a Yahoo Group report.

 

[furnessvale]

Can you enlighten us as to how you think the railway can find out whether trees are down without inspecting the railway before passenger trains start to run? Fallen trees are the most likely result of the severe weather forecast by the met office, so Network Rail has to respond accordingly. It's actually nothing to do with the TOCs involved, other than it is their job to warn the public.

I seem to recall this being done BEFORE the first booked passenger service.

I think the complaint is that nowadays there is a propensity to stop all trains until the wind subsides and only then to send out inspection trains.

Then again, a steam loco would make short work of even substantial obstructions, whereas a DMU/EMU is more likely to come to grief.

 

[Elecman]

Best that Network Rail get a few large steam licks out of the secret strategic reserve then!!

 

[EM2]

I seem to recall this being done BEFORE the first booked passenger service.

I think the complaint is that nowadays there is a propensity to stop all trains until the wind subsides and only then to send out inspection trains.

Then again, a steam loco would make short work of even substantial obstructions, whereas a DMU/EMU is more likely to come to grief.

It's not done while it's still dark. With the best will in the world, even with headlights you're going to see a lot less than you would in daylight.

 

[NeilWatson]

I seem to recall this being done BEFORE the first booked passenger service.

I think the complaint is that nowadays there is a propensity to stop all trains until the wind subsides and only then to send out inspection trains.

Then again, a steam loco would make short work of even substantial obstructions, whereas a DMU/EMU is more likely to come to grief.

It's common sense to wait until the wind subsides, it's pointless inspecting during a storm if trees could be falling across track that has already been inspected.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The storm on the coast, affecting Southern and Thameslink, was at its strongest at 6am, with winds at Shoreham in excess of 70mph!
It was still dark at that time, so any line inspection before then would have been wasted, although in the end, there were very few incidents.
However, you cannot take that risk.
NR and the TOC's do run route-proving trains overnight where practical, and will include suitable trained / equipped staff if possible.

 

[Frontera2]

My thought is that they would want to run route proving trains, after daylight to make sure there are no trees fallen across the tracks due to the high winds.

That is exactly what we did

 

[Antman]

The storm on the coast, affecting Southern and Thameslink, was at its strongest at 6am, with winds at Shoreham in excess of 70mph!
It was still dark at that time, so any line inspection before then would have been wasted, although in the end, there were very few incidents.
However, you cannot take that risk.
NR and the TOC's do run route-proving trains overnight where practical, and will include suitable trained / equipped staff if possible.

Next to nothing in Kent, just a bit of light wind and rain as you might expect in November, there were a couple of trees down in Dover and Ramsgate but nothing inland.

 

[EM2]

Next to nothing in Kent, just a bit of light wind and rain as you might expect in November, there were a couple of trees down in Dover and Ramsgate but nothing inland.

So you'd have run a normal passenger service, before you knew that to be the case?
And you failed to mention the trees down at Sturry and Selling.

 

[edwin_m]

Here is my view as a humble passenger:

I would rather know the night before that there was going to be a problem, so I could make alternate plans. This is better than arriving at the station at my normal time and finding no trains, or massive delays. If they say "there will be no trains until 10", then I am justified in cancelling a meeting which is booked at 9. If they give a wishy-washy "there might be problems but it all depends" then it becomes harder to plan.

I think it's not just about trees blowing over but also all the other junk that ends up getting blown onto rail lines or stuck in the wires. I think trampolines were a common problem last year.

I would not want to be on a train that hit something and then had to be rescued. Done that before and it meant an hours delay including some time without heating as the power had to be turned off.

This is eminently sensible. Prediction of the path of storms 24hr or so ahead seems to have improved greatly since, say, 1987, so people can be pretty confident of the time and are where disruption is likely and there shouldn't be too many false alarms.

Particularly for a Saturday night, it inconveniences far fewer people if the railway is suspended for a while on Sunday morning, if this minimises the damage and ensures it can be fixed before Monday. But even on a night before a working day it's probably better to cancel the service in advance so people don't try to get in until later - and employers know they won't be able to. The same would apply if a storm was forecast for the evening peak - try to alert people the night before and at the very least get the message out at lunchtime.

 

[dk1]

Looks like DK1 got through Thetford Forest okay.

Bless ya mate haha. Yes & had my trainee driving & was the first time she had experienced such poor adhesion. This however was nothing compared to the London trip through Norfolk/Suffolk. Darn 90s would slip on Brighton Beach.

 

[snowball]

Probably the most pointless posting of the year?:roll:

If there are trees down then obviously nobody will expect trains, but if they're not....................!!

Not in the least bit pointless in the context in which it was made.

 

[Antman]

Not in the least bit pointless in the context in which it was made.

So you thought you'd make an even more pointless post?:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you'd have run a normal passenger service, before you knew that to be the case?
And you failed to mention the trees down at Sturry and Selling.

No mention of any trees down at Sturry or Selling when I contracted NR.

Anyway, forgive me for stating the obvious, but if there are no high winds there is little chance of trees coming down, the wind wasn't even strong enough to blow a dustbin over in Ashford, so why no trains?

 

[EM2]

No mention of any trees down at Sturry or Selling when tweeted NR.

Oh, the emails I got during my twelve-hour shift must have been a figment of my imagination then...

Anyway, forgive me for stating the obvious, but if there are no high winds there is little chance of trees coming down, the wind wasn't even strong enough to blow a dustbin over.

Did you know for certain that there would be no high winds over Kent last night or this morning?
And the wind couldn't blow a dustbin over, but did blow down four trees. Excellent logic.