Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[PHILIPE]

I would define ‘mainline’ as routes that have medium to long distance trains. So, the line along the north shore of the Severn estuary I would class as a mainline as it carries services between Cardiff and Nottingham and would be carrying passengers who could well making longer journeys - such as Swansea to Newcastle. Branch lines, on the other hand, would be for shorter journeys - usually within local areas, such as the Valley lines in south Wales or the Truro to Falmouth service. These lines do not carry long/ medium distance trains.

In the case of the Exeter to Newton Abbot stoppers, these are operating on a main line but over a relatively short distance. In the case of the Cheltenham/Gloucester ATW services with Pacers, these are travelling 60 miles or so to reach Cardiff with some going even further west. Clearly, one of the most unacceptable journeys to be made by Pacers!

There is a diagram (SX) which involves a Pacer working between Maesteg and Cheltenham all day.

 

[lejog]

I would think that it is fairly safe to assume that the press offices of the various TOC’s (& Network Rail) do monitor these forums.

If you want to influence a public consultation, then you reply to it via the process defined. It is the responses that are analyzed and taken into account in reaching conclusions and certainly not posts on message boards. I'm sure people working on XC timetables are going to have lots of spare time to read about ATW pacers. :roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

As you say though, I imagine the reason for the doubling up on this train rather than one of the two following ones is that it can also form a peak service out of Manchester, while the next two would leave Manchester well after the peak.

So what has been teased out is that that pair of unit's diagram could be considered to almost cover 3 peak flows? Makes more sense of leaving Southampton 'early' in that case. As I suggested though, the trick will be making flexible passengers aware that it is a long train with double capacity; and so far XC don't appear to be interested in providing that information.

 

[sprinterguy]

As I suggested though, the trick will be making flexible passengers aware that it is a long train with double capacity; and so far XC don't appear to be interested in providing that information.

Yes, communication should be an important component in informing passengers of changes such as the lengthening of the 17:52 Birmingham - Cambridge to five carriages and subsequent shortening of the following 18:22 Birmingham - Stansted from 3 to 2. If passengers who currently travel on the 18:22 in lieu of the 17:52 due to crowding issues on the latter aren't aware that the 17:52 has been significantly lengthened then it all falls down.

 

[TheDavibob]

Quick question about the 17:52 Bham - Cambridge (if anyone knows) -- would it cut out Stamford and Melton Mowbray? As far as I can tell the platforms are far too short to support a five car turbostar (which is, I assume, part of the capacity problem on that line).

 

[sprinterguy]

Quick question about the 17:52 Bham - Cambridge (if anyone knows) -- would it cut out Stamford and Melton Mowbray? As far as I can tell the platforms are far too short to support a five car turbostar (which is, I assume, part of the capacity problem on that line).

I believe the intention is for the service to split at Leicester, with a single unit going forward from there so no issues for Stamford and Melton Mowbray.

 

[TheDavibob]

I believe the intention is for the service to split at Leicester, with a single unit going forward from there so no issues for Stamford and Melton Mowbray.

Makes sense - explains the direct reference to increasing capacity on the Bham Leicester bit.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[83G/84D]

A few observations having read the document in detail...

It seems that they are planning on having...
26 out of 29 170's in service...
35 out of 38 220/1(4car)...
18 out of 20 221(5car)...
4 out of 5 HSTs...
in service every weekday...

It seems pretty heroic for the Turbostar and Voyager fleets and means that the current Friday strengthening on a handful of workings looks to be a thing of the past...

3 x 170s (excluding the standby/1739 Derby) do nothing outside the peaks...

A 220(4car) sits at Plymouth from 1048 to 1625...

A 220(4car) does nothing in between the am/pm peak hour Derby-Leeds-Derby train...

The new northbound Aberdeen service is 45/50 minutes behind an East Coast Aberdeen service from Leeds to Aberdeen...

The new southbound Aberdeen service is 30 minutes behind an East Coast Aberdeen service from Aberdeen to York...

The 1730 off Birmingham to Cardiff is reduced to a 2 car...

First evening off peak train evening train (1822) from Birmingham to Leicester (and Stansted) is reduced to a 2 car...

There's 1 less 3 car on the Nottingham-Cardiff route as it will be used for peak hour only Leicester strengthening...

Possible Gloucester calls on the Exeter/Manchester service if they can get paths...

Unless I'm being dumb (highly likely) I can't work out whether the new station at Cambridge North will be served by XC...

Why not run the set that sits at Plymouth through to Penzance & return or just as far as Truro and back. And while you are at it Cross Country, get a catering service on some trains west of Plymouth and not just in the summer.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[83G/84D]

FGW should be operating a half hourly service along the Cornish main line from about the same time...

I also made a suggestion about using that set in another post...

GWR (FGW) do not propose a half hourly service until December 2018. The signalling enhancement scheme will not be complete until then meaning it will be difficult to run a half hourly service prior to this date even if (and it is a big if) the resources were available to do so.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[crosscity]

I use the 10:07 from Paignton every couple of months, loosing it especially in summer is short sighted, it is positively rammed with people going back to the north. The only thing that would sweeten the pill would be if GWR introduced a semi-fast to Exeter from Torbay, that hour on a 142 stopper from Torbay to Exeter can only be described as painful, especially on a hot summers day.

I'm not clear whether Michael74 is just talking about the 10:07 being replaced with something by GWR, or is making a general point about connections into or from the new hourly XC Exeter terminators. If the latter, the XC hourly Plymouth trains will presumably still call at Newton Abbot so an hours ride on a pacer isn't compulsory.

I have another point too - the XC calls at Weston-super-Mare, Dawlish and Teignmouth are all made by Paignton trains. Will XC stop serving these stations too? If not some of the Plymouth's will need to stop at Dawlish and Teignmouth. Weston could be served by the Exeter terminators, but would there be any demand?

 

[michael74]

I'm not clear whether Michael74 is just talking about the 10:07 being replaced with something by GWR, or is making a general point about connections into or from the new hourly XC Exeter terminators. If the latter, the XC hourly Plymouth trains will presumably still call at Newton Abbot so an hours ride on a pacer isn't compulsory.

I have another point too - the XC calls at Weston-super-Mare, Dawlish and Teignmouth are all made by Paignton trains. Will XC stop serving these stations too? If not some of the Plymouth's will need to stop at Dawlish and Teignmouth. Weston could be served by the Exeter terminators, but would there be any demand?

My thoughts (albeit not entirely made clear, mainly as I wasn't putting too much effort into it ) were 2 fold. I take your point about not needing to go all the way to Exeter when you can join the hourly at Newton Abbot, however (especially in summer your then putting 2 sets of passengers on one train at Newton, if there is a "fast" train from Torbay to Exeter then it spreads the passenger loads a bit more evenly.

Also, as has been mentioned before, the Paignton - Manchester train is popular for trips to Exeter as it is a faster trip than in a GWR wagon, ahem I mean a 143. I know you can still use the GWR Paddingotn Service, but the loss of the XC service, restricts your options somwhat.

Another thought is (3 fold now), especially returning from Brum (especially on Sundays) can leave you with a long wait at Newton Abbot is there a risk of this happening during the week? (although I haven't thought this one through at all, getting tired now, I think I will stop now lol)

 

[sprinterguy]

The 1752 is a peak service with peak fares... The 1822 is the first off peak service... When XC introduced evening restrictions back in 2009 the 1822 was a 2 car... Due to the appalling overcrowding it was changed to a 3 car with the December 2009 timetable change...

Ah, I hadn't realised that ticket restrictions applied. That makes things a bit more complicated then...

 

[crosscity]

.....
Another thought is (3 fold now), especially returning from Brum (especially on Sundays) can leave you with a long wait at Newton Abbot is there a risk of this happening during the week? (although I haven't thought this one through at all, getting tired now, I think I will stop now lol)

On a weekday it's variable with a connection time of between 4 and 29 minutes for arrivals up to 2002 . Then it's dire - The 2103 arrival (1812 from New St) is immediately behind a Paddington-Paignton, so there is a 60 minute wait at Newton Abbot. The next (and last!) Paignton is at 2319, OK for the 2301 XC arrival (2012 from New St), but not too good for the 2205 and 2228.

If you need to catch the 1812, 1912 or 1942 from New St I suggest you catch bus 12 from outside Newton Abbot station.

 

[fgwrich]

Until last night I found myself mostly agreeing with the proposals. However, after returning from a weekend in the West Midlands I find myself feeling a little bit annoyed about them. While I can accept that a many of the overcrowding issues take place on the core part of the NE/SW leg of XC, little it seems is being put forward for the NW/SC (Manchester to Reading/Southampton Central & Bournemouth) legs. From those proposals, would it be safe to presume that the 221s will then mostly stick to the NE/SW corridor with 220s providing the majority of the Bournemouth services? I wasn't impressed to end up on the 19:04 service from New Street (a Sunday evening!) - with a 4 car 220 to be full and standing to Oxford, even with the delayed service to Reading leaving 5 minutes before (also with a full and standing 220!)
As mentioned earlier, it just seems to be a robbing poor Peter to reduce payments for poor Paul, with the Birmingham to Bournemouth leg being left to suffer as is.

 

[Richard_B]

Until last night I found myself mostly agreeing with the proposals. However, after returning from a weekend in the West Midlands I find myself feeling a little bit annoyed about them. While I can accept that a many of the overcrowding issues take place on the core part of the NE/SW leg of XC, little it seems is being put forward for the NW/SC (Manchester to Reading/Southampton Central & Bournemouth) legs. From those proposals, would it be safe to presume that the 221s will then mostly stick to the NE/SW corridor with 220s providing the majority of the Bournemouth services? I wasn't impressed to end up on the 19:04 service from New Street (a Sunday evening!) - with a 4 car 220 to be full and standing to Oxford, even with the delayed service to Reading leaving 5 minutes before (also with a full and standing 220!)
As mentioned earlier, it just seems to be a robbing poor Peter to reduce payments for poor Paul, with the Birmingham to Bournemouth leg being left to suffer as is.

You are right that eveything XC do is basically a zero sum game but I would point that Sunday evening congestion on the southern half of XC routes happens on both sides out of Birmingham. My friends went from new street to Exeter at around 6ish and their train was basically full on departure. Not sure if it was 221 or 220. There is no good answer and if they have 10 coaches of passengers to transport and only a 221 and a 220 available then somebody has to lose.

 

[fgwrich]

You are right that eveything XC do is basically a zero sum game but I would point that Sunday evening congestion on the southern half of XC routes happens on both sides out of Birmingham. My friends went from new street to Exeter at around 6ish and their train was basically full on departure. Not sure if it was 221 or 220. There is no good answer and if they have 10 coaches of passengers to transport and only a 221 and a 220 available then somebody has to lose.

Very true, but it does feel a little disappointing that XC Admit and know there is equally as much of a problem on the South Central leg of the franchise, but offer up the crumbs of a cancelled Guildford leg. Improvements to those services which terminate at Reading would even be an improvement - 2x220 for example, but it looks like any of our doubled up services will be lost and little to improve the Midlands to the South Coast section until the next franchise period begins.

Putting it into perspective from the other direction, the 07:52 from Bas on Saturday morning was busy from Reading (despite the delayed Newcastle leaving 5 minutes ahead) with standing from Oxford & Banbury again. Even with effectively a half hourly service, this route is still suffering and both peak and off peak times.

 

[Kettledrum]

Until little it seems is being put forward for the NW/SC (Manchester to Reading/Southampton Central & Bournemouth) legs. .

and on the crush loaded Birmingham to Nottingham leg there will be reduced capacity - 2 coaches are going to be a nightmare

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Qwerty133]

I would hope that the data used on the Leicester-Birmingham has been more than ticket sales, as many passengers from intermediate stations don't get a chance to actually purchases tickets.
Cutting the 15:52 is a very bad move from what I have seen, and the 17:18 can be full and standing even as a 5 car.
Also doesn't address what I'd consider to be one of the bigger issues of Sunday mornings.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I would hope that the data used on the Leicester-Birmingham has been more than ticket sales, as many passengers from intermediate stations don't get a chance to actually purchases tickets.
Cutting the 15:52 is a very bad move from what I have seen, and the 17:18 can be full and standing even as a 5 car.
Also doesn't address what I'd consider to be one of the bigger issues of Sunday mornings.

My understanding of how this was undertaken (based on what I saw throughout the last few months) is that a number of CrossCountry office workers have been walking down the train and literally counting heads. How they assess the numbers if they can't get down the train I have no idea!
Thanks,
Ross

 

[Beatbox00]

He probably read it here first, we touched on it earlier in this thread particularly regarding Guildford.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



As discussed earlier, deep maintenance and overnight cleaning, tanking and stabling can be separated, it isn't that unusual. That single Edinburgh arrival, and the late evening Edinburgh to Newcastle service could just as easily point to cycling the HSTs through Craigentinny one at a time.

I understand Heaton is getting full maintainence of the XC HST fleet

 

[Class172]

My understanding of how this was undertaken (based on what I saw throughout the last few months) is that a number of CrossCountry office workers have been walking down the train and literally counting heads. How they assess the numbers if they can't get down the train I have no idea!
Thanks,
Ross

That would appear to be the case. On an evening service from Leicester to New St. a few weeks ago, after every station call the guard walked down the train with a small 'clicker' to count people.

 

[louis97]

That would appear to be the case. On an evening service from Leicester to New St. a few weeks ago, after every station call the guard walked down the train with a small 'clicker' to count people.

I think that is fairly standard anyway, I have regularly traveled between Derby and Plymouth for a good 5 years now and at least once on most trips I have seen the Train Manager come through with a clicker counting passengers - generally after Birmingham. I believe they enter the data onto their Avantix. I presume this is standard across all XC services.

 

[43074]

I think that is fairly standard anyway, I have regularly traveled between Derby and Plymouth for a good 5 years now and at least once on most trips I have seen the Train Manager come through with a clicker counting passengers - generally after Birmingham. I believe they enter the data onto their Avantix. I presume this is standard across all XC services.

Indeed, and presumably these changes have been in the planning for quite a while anyway so a passenger count in the last few weeks is unlikely have have informed their decisions - on the other hand, a count made a few months ago would very possibly have contributed to informing the process.

 

[43096]

I understand Heaton is getting full maintainence of the XC HST fleet

Correct. It makes sense as a) Craigentinny becomes a Hitachi depot, b) the GC fleet is already based there and c) as a Northern depot it is now an Arriva facility, so the work is "in house".

 

[sprinterguy]

I understand Heaton is getting full maintainence of the XC HST fleet

While it's a plausible outcome nothing has been decided in this regard. Options are still being considered and there's more than one potential depot in play here.

 

[fgwrich]

While it's a plausible outcome nothing has been decided in this regard. Options are still being considered and there's more than one potential depot in play here.

Could Laira be the other by any chance? That will soon be a depot looking for work, with plenty of HST Experience. Other than the GWR 'Short Sets' for the Wales/Bristol/South West axis, that depot will soon become near redundant other than for train servicing.