Must I use outward portion of ticket?

[Sussex Star]

A super-off peak day return from Chichester to Victoria costs £11.80 at the weekend with a network card.

However the cheapest single from Victoria to Chichester is £19.15 with a railcard.

Is there any ticketing rule that prevents me from buying the cheaper return online but only using the return portion to travel down to Chichester?

I am particularly thinking about how a guard would view me travelling down first thing, when there would have clearly been no time to use the outward portion.

Many thanks.

 

[yorkie]

There is no requirement to use the outward portion of the ticket.

You want to travel from London to Chichester "first thing", that's fine providing "first thing" means you are departing between midnight and 0429 (or after 1100 is also fine).

 

[gray1404]

Totally agree with Yorkie, no requirement to use the outward portion of the ticket. And you can use the ticket at any time provided its within the time restrictions.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Am I right in thinking if this is a weekend there will be no time restrictions at all?

 

[Romilly]

So far as I am aware, Puffing Devil is correct, although the train operating company considers that the ticket concerned is not valid on services operated under its Gatwick Express brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need not use the outward. The rule is just that use of the return invalidates the outward, i.e. you can't use a return ticket backwards.

 

[richw]

You want to travel from London to Chichester "first thing", that's fine providing "first thing" means you are departing between midnight and 0429 (or after 1100 is also fine).

Ignore this bit as the OP specified a weekend. This bit applies weekday only.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, the restrictions only apply Mondays-Fridays, so if it's a weekend you can take any train.

 

[Sussex Star]

Many thanks all for replies. Yes, it would be on a weekend jouney, so not peak time.

Interesting that you say that using the return invalids the outward portion. But If I chose to come back to London on the outward portion in the evening, how would anyone know I'd already used the return part...

I will give it a try and see how I get on. Cheers

 

[Hadders]

Many thanks all for replies. Yes, it would be on a weekend jouney, so not peak time.

Interesting that you say that using the return invalids the outward portion. But If I chose to come back to London on the outward portion in the evening, how would anyone know I'd already used the return part...

I will give it a try and see how I get on. Cheers

The outward portion is only valid if accompanied by an unused return portion. A ticket inspector could ask to see the return portion of your ticket if s/he suspected abuse.

 

[bb21]

Many thanks all for replies. Yes, it would be on a weekend jouney, so not peak time.

Interesting that you say that using the return invalids the outward portion. But If I chose to come back to London on the outward portion in the evening, how would anyone know I'd already used the return part...

I will give it a try and see how I get on. Cheers

Because it's fraudulent? (I assume you are not looking beyond this?)

The travel pattern you describe will set all sorts of alarm bells ringing with an observant RPI.

 

[kieron]

There is no requirement to use the outward portion of the ticket.

You want to travel from London to Chichester "first thing", that's fine providing "first thing" means you are departing between midnight and 0429 (or after 1100 is also fine).

Assuming that you mean that there's a rule somewhere to say that you can only use the return part of the ticket once the outward part becomes valid, any train after 10:52 (if not 10:49) would be fine on a weekday. That's when the 09:34 from Uckfield is timed to get into London Bridge.

 

[Deerfold]

Assuming that you mean that there's a rule somewhere to say that you can only use the return part of the ticket once the outward part becomes valid, any train after 10:52 (if not 10:49) would be fine on a weekday. That's when the 09:34 from Uckfield is timed to get into London Bridge.

The only rule seems to be a restriction on evening travel

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=CCH&dest=VIC&rlc=YNG&rte=777&tkt=PDR

RETURN TRAVEL:

Valid on all trains except
those departing London
Terminals between 1615 and
1915 (inc.) Monday to Friday.

 

[richw]

Many thanks all for replies. Yes, it would be on a weekend jouney, so not peak time.

Interesting that you say that using the return invalids the outward portion. But If I chose to come back to London on the outward portion in the evening, how would anyone know I'd already used the return part...

I will give it a try and see how I get on. Cheers

Because it's fraudulent? (I assume you are not looking beyond this?)

The travel pattern you describe will set all sorts of alarm bells ringing with an observant RPI.

paragraph 12.3 of the 2016 conditions of travel.

12.3 A return Ticket must be used in the correct sequence (you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion). The outward portion of a return Ticket is no longer valid for travel once the return portion has been used

 

[button_boxer]

paragraph 12.3 of the 2016 conditions of travel.

12.3 A return Ticket must be used in the correct sequence (you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion). The outward portion of a return Ticket is no longer valid for travel once the return portion has been used

Interesting, so the new Conditions of Travel say that you do have to use the outward before you can use the return, whereas the old Conditions of Carriage only have the negative part of the condition (you can't use the outward after the return)

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

I wonder whether this is a deliberate change (so they can pull up people using the return half before the first valid outward service has arrived)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are certainly journeys I know of where a remote-issued return is cheaper than a single to that destination...I won't name them, but they exist.

It's near unenforceable, though.

 

[richw]

Interesting, so the new Conditions of Travel say that you do have to use the outward before you can use the return, whereas the old Conditions of Carriage only have the negative part of the condition (you can't use the outward after the return)



I wonder whether this is a deliberate change (so they can pull up people using the return half before the first valid outward service has arrived)?

No because you can use the return leg, it just invalidates the outbound ticket. Probably unenforceable though.

 

[button_boxer]

No because you can use the return leg, it just invalidates the outbound ticket. Probably unenforceable though.

That's what the old conditions used to say, my point is that the new ones say explicitly that "you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion" - in mathematical terms, intentionally or otherwise they've changed an "if" into an "if and only if".

Unenforceable, as you say, except in the situation where you try to use the return before it would have been possible to use any of the outward portion (whether you actually did or not).

 

[30907]

That's what the old conditions used to say, my point is that the new ones say explicitly that "you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion" - in mathematical terms, intentionally or otherwise they've changed an "if" into an "if and only if".

But the bold is not in the original, and it is perfectly reasonable to read the sentence with the emphasis on before, ie.
"you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion."

Simplified language has its merits (the old version wouldn't merit the crystal mark!) but can lead to ambiguities.

 

[yorkie]

My view is that there is no additional restriction imposed by the new wording that forces people to make the outward journey of a return ticket.

However if anyone feels it is unclear, simply send an FOI request to the DfT asking if a material change to this effect did occur, and if it did why they authorised it?

I suspect the DfT will state that no such material change has taken place, or that they have no record of any material change in this respect.

 

[All Line Rover]

...the new ones say explicitly that "you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion"...

As 30907 explains, no they don't.

The full wording is, to repeat: "A return ticket must be used in the correct sequence (you must use the outward portion of your return ticket before you use the return portion). The outward portion of a return ticket is no longer valid for travel once the return portion has been used."

Therefore, the rule is that "a return ticket must be used in the correct sequence". The words in parentheses merely serve to explain what 'using a ticket in the correct sequence' means. There isn't any emphasis on the words "must use". In the context, the appropriate emphasis is on the word "before". The sentence I have underlined reinforces this. It wouldn't make sense to have to say that the outward portion retains no validity once the return portion has been used, if the outward portion has to be "used" before the return portion can be used in the first place.

If the intention was to impose a requirement that the outward portion must be used (and not merely invalidated, therefore creating a host of problems as to what "used" really means) before the return portion can be used, appropriate wording such as "the return portion of a return ticket cannot be used until a journey on the outward portion of the ticket has been completed" would have been used.

Furthermore, as Yorkie indicates, the DfT appeared to want the new NRCoT to merely be a simplification exercise and not a change of (many of) the substantive underlying conditions. (And the simplified wording has created a host of new "ambiguities" thus making (most of) the new conditions more generous than the old!)

 

[bb21]

I think we are reading far too much into it. There hasn't been a requirement to have used the outward portion first, which is almost impossible to enforce in any case, before using the return portion, as long as they are not used in reverse order.

If anyone is unsure, write to each TOC + DfT, and I doubt you will be told otherwise.