Proposed Marylebone Aberystwyth Service

[EE Type 3]

Everyone seems to forget that they will be running over part of the Cambrian. 158s or 158s. Nothing else. No loco hauled, no 175s, no 390 drags, 158s. Unless Arriva want to waste money investing in 37s and more stock then fair enough, but they don't. So it'll be 158s whether you like it or not I'm afraid.
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Voyagers have already done a test run up the Cambrian and the ATW staff have been formally introduced to them. Apparently staff from Mach will work the trains as far as Leamington Spa and then XC staff from there on. Don't forget that ATW and XC are now run by the same company.

Eh?

Voyagers are not passed for the cambrian, unless they snuck one up when no one was looking. They are run by the same company, but that won't mean they'll loan this and that to each other. It's like saying Virgin West Coast have borrowed a few jumbo jets from Virgin Atlantic seeing as they are the same company.

Like I've already said. It'll be 158s.

 

[mrcheek]

Everyone seems to forget that they will be running over part of the Cambrian. 158s or 158s. Nothing else. No loco hauled, no 175s, no 390 drags, 158s. Unless Arriva want to waste money investing in 37s and more stock then fair enough, but they don't. So it'll be 158s whether you like it or not I'm afraid.
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Eh?

Voyagers are not passed for the cambrian, unless they snuck one up when no one was looking. They are run by the same company, but that won't mean they'll loan this and that to each other. It's like saying Virgin West Coast have borrowed a few jumbo jets from Virgin Atlantic seeing as they are the same company.

Like I've already said. It'll be 158s.

"eh?" right back at you. perhaps you could explain to the uninitiated amongst us WHY only 158s are allowed on the Cambrian.

 

[EE Type 3]

158s are the only fleet on ATW's card which is fully RETB fitted. Plus there is the small factor that the 158s are the only unit ATW have that are fully passed for the cambrian, the line isn't suited to 150s or 153s either. There are clearance problems on bridges which prevent almost everythng from venturing to Aberyswyth. When you also consider that ERTMS is coming in, and the 158s again will be the only thing fitted with it (excluding the 97s as they will be only for engineering work) you really don't have a large list of what can work down there.

 

[Techniquest]

Bizarre, never heard anything about a Voyager going up to the Cambrian, would have made some effort to see it myself otherwise!

Still, wonders will never cease.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Whatever next? A pendolino hauled by two NR 97s (ERTMS) top n tail on the Cambrian lines?

Actually, that's something I'd REALLY like to see LOL (and the way things are heading round here...)

edit - my 100th post!

 

[westcoaster]

dont forget the speed on the chiltern is faster for units then for lhcs. what is the longest 158 diagramed journey, great malvern-brighton iirc 5-6 hours

 

[Techniquest]

Great Malvern to Brighton is certainly a long run, although the once-daily Inverness to Edinburgh via Aberdeen must take some time.

I don't know if there's any booked 158 work on the ATW runs to/from Manchester via Hereford, but Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly on a 158 would also be a long run.

 

[The Planner]

dont forget the speed on the chiltern is faster for units then for lhcs. what is the longest 158 diagramed journey, great malvern-brighton iirc 5-6 hours

Thats being cut down, the difference will be as low as 5 mph between Aynho and Bicester soon. The unit speed applies up to class 168, so 170s have to use the slower speed !! which I think is down to a weight issue, anyone know the weights of a 158 and 168 ??

 

[P156KWJ]

Great Malvern to Brighton is certainly a long run, although the once-daily Inverness to Edinburgh via Aberdeen must take some time.

I don't know if there's any booked 158 work on the ATW runs to/from Manchester via Hereford, but Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly on a 158 would also be a long run.

what about the diagram they used to have once a day - Edinburgh-Wick hock:

And don't forget Liverpool-Norwich is just under 6 hours

 

[EE Type 3]

According to a friend of mine, yesterdays 18.09 Birmingham International - Aberystwyth went around Abbey Foregate avoider.

Anyone need it? I'm looking at you Jules

 

[Techniquest]

*Raises two carefully-selected, Salop-born fingers and waves them in front of the monitor*

I do indeed need it, MegaAnnoyed.

Gotta ask, what was the reason for that? Dodgy DRA/AWS?

 

[EE Type 3]

*Raises two carefully-selected, Salop-born fingers and waves them in front of the monitor*

I do indeed need it, MegaAnnoyed.

Gotta ask, what was the reason for that? Dodgy DRA/AWS?

Not a clue mate, possibly just a trial or a last minute change of plan.

It was a pure guess that you still required AF curve, you need most of the chords/middle roads/loops on and around the marches

 

[Techniquest]

Fair enough.

And yep, all these damn middle roads (that one at Shrewsbury has started to annoy me now!) and such are annoying. One day I'll get them all done!

 

[Donny Dave]

Are you having a giraffe? Working air con, comfy seats, comparatively low engine noise and vibration levels and an overall far comfier journey, plus would be quicker if linespeed is above 90mph for reasonable stretches!

Yeah, thats if you can get a seat. Otherwise overcrowded in standard, with plenty of room in first class!!!

Now I know your having a laugh !!!! Apart from the peak time services around Leeds and Manchester, your pretty much guaranteed a seat. I should know, as I've been and plenty of journeys with TPE, at a lot of different times of day.

dont forget the speed on the chiltern is faster for units then for lhcs.

Thats being cut down, the difference will be as low as 5 mph between Aynho and Bicester soon. The unit speed applies up to class 168, so 170s have to use the slower speed !! which I think is down to a weight issue, anyone know the weights of a 158 and 168 ??

The 185s would have to stick to the LH line speed, because of the weight issue. 158s and 170s can do the MU limit of 90mph over the Hope Valley, but the 185s have to stick to the normal line speed of 60/70mph.

Weights* ....

Each 158 carriage is 38.5 tonnes, so 77t for a 2 car formation
Class 168 weights vary according to batch, and even which carriages they have in the formation! I'll have a go anyway....
168/0 - 168.8 tonnes
168/1 - 175.1t (168106/7 4 car units) 132.2t (168108-10 3 car units) 132.8t (168111-13 3 car units)
168/2 - 134.9t (168214/8/9 3 car units) 177.5t (168215-7 4 car units)
185 163.4t

* All weights and formations taken from Locomotives and Coaching Stock book, 2006.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Fair enough.

And yep, all these damn middle roads (that one at Shrewsbury has started to annoy me now!) and such are annoying. One day I'll get them all done!

You may have already seen it, but this is probably the best diagram of Shrewsbury station and immediate junctions on the web:

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Shrewsbury/index.htm#Diagram

 

[TDK]

dont forget the speed on the chiltern is faster for units then for lhcs. what is the longest 158 diagramed journey, great malvern-brighton iirc 5-6 hours

The chiltern lines have enhanced HST speeds and not Sprinter speeds. The 168's have a special dispensation to use the HST speeds and I am sure the 158's will not as when the Super Voyagers were on the Chiltern lines they could not run at the HST speeds so it looks like Chiltern Railways have the route sewn up for pace. I wonder if ATW have taken this into account, probably not.

 

[Ascot]

It will only be 158s due to diagramming and crews. They'll be doing Pwllheli or other 158 services the day before or day after. It's like TPE having an extension of their Blackpool services to Birmingham using 170s which are used on Hull services.

 

[xtradj]

pretty much every mid sized town now wants a connection to london

my fear is soon, london and surrounding areas will become to jammed, and there will be less coaches/trains to form other services

considering aberystwtyh is full of students, can i really see 2 trains to london a day being filled? im not so sure

 

[Techniquest]

Ta for that link Proud Salopian, it's more accurate than the Quail in the Shrewsbury area!

 

[Golden Gripper]

...there is the small factor that the 158s are the only unit ATW have that are fully passed for the cambrian, the line isn't suited to 150s or 153s either. There are clearance problems on bridges which prevent almost everythng from venturing to Aberyswyth.

You make it sound more definate than it is in reality. Where I worked we had a photo of the prototype class 150 at Penhellig. Also I've travelled on 156s along the coast. I think other classes can work the Cambrian, its only Dovey Junction - Aberystwyth that's a problem. Not meaning to undermine your arguement, just clarifying the situation.

On the subject of paths, ATW will have one great advantage over W&SR in that they already have fast paths through Wolverhampton and Birmingham: no meandering through Portobello Junction and Soho Road or Aston at 20 mph or whatever. That means the only problem is slotting in behind a Chiltern 185 down to Marylebone. If W&SR can do it then so can ATW.

 

[The Planner]

On the subject of paths, ATW will have one great advantage over W&SR in that they already have fast paths through Wolverhampton and Birmingham: no meandering through Portobello Junction and Soho Road or Aston at 20 mph or whatever. That means the only problem is slotting in behind a Chiltern 185 down to Marylebone. If W&SR can do it then so can ATW.

Thats all very well, but once they are past International, they have to compete with everyone else. They will struggle past International as Virgin, XC, LM ,WSMR and the freights wont budge as they will have the stronger contractural rights aswell as Virgins infamous anti competition clauses. You need to realise WSMR and Chiltern are in each other pockets, they are more than happy to move for each other if they need to. Wait until ATW try and bid for paths, if there are any, they will be crawling behind a Chiltern unit all the way as they wont budge.

 

[EE Type 3]

You make it sound more definate than it is in reality. Where I worked we had a photo of the prototype class 150 at Penhellig. Also I've travelled on 156s along the coast. I think other classes can work the Cambrian, its only Dovey Junction - Aberystwyth that's a problem. Not meaning to undermine your arguement, just clarifying the situation.

Oh yes, 150s and 156s have been down the route, 170s have too when Central used to run to Mach. The 170s always had trouble with the RETB, picking up the local police and ambulance radio! But now Arriva don't have anything else but 158s for the services, as said above RETB being a main issue. Plus The 150s are not really suited for the cambrian, let alone the run to London!

If a new build lightweight 171 comes along, it's planned to, the best bet would be Arriva buying 4 car 171s (DMS-ML-ML-DMS(Not too clued up on DMU coach codes that well!)) for use on these sort of services. Maybe even a buffet, like the 3 car MML 170s had.

 

[Chafford1]

Wait until ATW try and bid for paths, if there are any, they will be crawling behind a Chiltern unit all the way as they wont budge.

When are Chiltern going to implement their Evergreen 3 upgrade and will this include the frequently discussed 4 tracking south of High Wycombe.

 

[The Planner]

When are Chiltern going to implement their Evergreen 3 upgrade and will this include the frequently discussed 4 tracking south of High Wycombe.

Evergreen 3 isnt until 2012+ when they put in the Bicester chord and start running into Oxford, and thats slightly dependant on whats decided about Oxford - Bletchley. There wont be any 4 tracking. Just some turnbacks and centre roads through Beaconsfield.

 

[Chafford1]

Evergreen 3 isnt until 2012+ when they put in the Bicester chord and start running into Oxford, and thats slightly dependant on whats decided about Oxford - Bletchley. There wont be any 4 tracking. Just some turnbacks and centre roads through Beaconsfield.

The timescales are a little disappointing. I thought the aim was to have this scheme in place in time for the Olympics.

The 4 tracks though Beaconsfield have been advocated since 2000, I believe. Where are the turnbacks planned, and are there any further details on Evergreen 3?

 

[Golden Gripper]

You need to realise WSMR and Chiltern are in each other pockets, they are more than happy to move for each other if they need to. Wait until ATW try and bid for paths, if there are any, they will be crawling behind a Chiltern unit all the way as they wont budge.

I take your point, and these are all things said earlier in the thread. I was just pointing out that ATW have that advantage over W&SR.

Lets look at the route from International to Marylebone.

International - Coventry. Essentially a service where trains run at the same time each hour. If W&SR can find a path down there so can ATW, if it is a different hour (though the only time I have used the service we went by Solihull).

Coventry - Leamington. Potentially the most difficult section - single track with only one shortish passing point. But the main user is AXC, the same company as ATW. Now who is in who's pocket?

Leamington - Marylebone. Again a regular service. W&SR are not that well favoured by Chiltern as their trains don't seem to have that easier ride. If a path can be squeezed out for W&SR in one hour Chiltern wouldn't have much of a case to the Rail Regulator to say that a ATW train can't do the same thing an hour later.

There is much talk about maximum speeds over this route, but it strikes me that, as things are at present, there isn't much scope for maximum speeds to be obtained for long before we bump up against a Chiltern train stopping somewhere.

Personally I'm not that fussed either way over ATW's proposal, though the competition would be interesting and its facinating to see a reversal of the usual position and an open access operator's traffic being threatened by a franchise. However, I do think that so far this thread has been a little one sided in its analysis and I'm just trying to point out that it isn't all hopeless for ATW's scheme (operationally speaking).

 

[The Planner]

International - Coventry. Essentially a service where trains run at the same time each hour. If W&SR can find a path down there so can ATW, if it is a different hour (though the only time I have used the service we went by Solihull).

WSMR dont have many paths (if any without checking) that dont tend to sit in platform 5 at International for the best part of 10-15 minutes. WMSR were squeezed in, and now have their trains fixed on the graph. My point is that ATW now have to fit in what space there is left. Like you point out later on, they will probably have to go to dispute to have any chance of squeezing people out of the way.

Coventry - Leamington. Potentially the most difficult section - single track with only one shortish passing point. But the main user is AXC, the same company as ATW. Now who is in who's pocket?

If experience of AXC is anything to go by, they wont move as they want their timetable as clockface based as they can get it. Then you need to get EWS and Freightliner out of the way, and they are even worse !!

Leamington - Marylebone. Again a regular service. W&SR are not that well favoured by Chiltern as their trains don't seem to have that easier ride. If a path can be squeezed out for W&SR in one hour Chiltern wouldn't have much of a case to the Rail Regulator to say that a ATW train can't do the same thing an hour later.

Chiltern do favour WSMR. The trains that were originally moved by them to get WSMR in are more than you would imagine. WSMR were partly owned by Laing Rail, bought by DB. DB also own Chiltern, enough said there.

There is much talk about maximum speeds over this route, but it strikes me that, as things are at present, there isn't much scope for maximum speeds to be obtained for long before we bump up against a Chiltern train stopping somewhere.

Judging by the document produced by ATW and the speculative timetable, you're not wrong, they all have shed loads of pathing time in them.