Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, they can't surely be proposing to undertake a load of ECS moves as it just wouldn't make any sense. Rather than all but one of the northbounds terminating at Newcastle they'd all run on to Edinburgh and that one that does wouldn't come straight back again. Unless that 2130 is the fifth set coming off the depot to go to Newcastle for service the next day?

It just doesn't make sense unless they move maintenance to Heaton.

All well I'm sure all will become clear!

What about overnight stabling and minor maintenance at Heaton, with only exams and major maintenance remaining at Craigentinny?

 

[Suraggu]

Interesting, they can't surely be proposing to undertake a load of ECS moves as it just wouldn't make any sense. Rather than all but one of the northbounds terminating at Newcastle they'd all run on to Edinburgh and that one that does wouldn't come straight back again. Unless that 2130 is the fifth set coming off the depot to go to Newcastle for service the next day?

It just doesn't make sense unless they move maintenance to Heaton.

All well I'm sure all will become clear!

Now there is nothing stopping AXC to approach Northern for a servicing contract at Heaton.

Mind you Heaton already has 6 VTEC sets M-F, the GC fleet and its own units to deal with so adding an additional 2 HST's pushes them to the maximum.

The 5th set is on maintenance at EC for roughly a 7 day period so swap outs will be easier but this is likely to mean Northern carrying out A and possibly B Exams on AXC HST's.

 

[swt_passenger]

No more XC from Bath, Bromsgrove or Guildford it sounds like. Paignton seeing a reduction of services calling there

Bath is only a XC optional extra AFAICT, but Guildford was an explicit requirement in the 2008 SLC, put into the franchise spec after local consultees insisted upon it, and managed to persuade DfT of its supposed benefits. (Not an ORCATS raid as is often suggested...)

I'd assume the same local objections to this service removal will appear all over again, so they'll really have to emphasise the GWR alternative, with their improved 3 tph service.

So you'd have to assume they already have DfT's tacit agreement to removal of Guildford. Without the continuous route retention advantage of running the ECS to and from Guildford via Havant and Fareham; perhaps we'll also see the end of XC diversions the long way round when the Basingstoke route is closed?

 

[sprinterguy]

Shame the 2130 wasn't later. Prove to East Coast that demand exists after 2100!

There will at least be a 22:01 Edinburgh - Newcastle Virgin East Coast service on Fridays from December. It's good to see that the late evening service south from Edinburgh is beginning to see some attention.

 

[ainsworth74]

Shame the 2130 wasn't later. Prove to East Coast that demand exists after 2100!

As above there is going to be a 2201 on Fridays run by VTEC hopefully if that is successful and that the 2130 is successful that might see an extension so that it runs throughout the week. Of course the issue is that once you get to Newcastle you can't really get anywhere else by National Rail!

What about overnight stabling and minor maintenance at Heaton, with only exams and major maintenance remaining at Craigentinny?

That could certainly work I suppose but it would still seem strange to basically cut the HST network off from Craigentinny apart from one service per day.

Now there is nothing stopping AXC to approach Northern for a servicing contract at Heaton.

Mind you Heaton already has 6 VTEC sets M-F, the GC fleet and its own units to deal with so adding an additional 2 HST's pushes them to the maximum.

The 5th set is on maintenance at EC for roughly a 7 day period so swap outs will be easier but this is likely to mean Northern carrying out A and possibly B Exams on AXC HST's.

Yes that's a good point we're going on about just moving them to Heaton but does Heaton have sufficent spare capacity to deal with it! Will they still have as many VTEC sets to deal with once the SETs are introduced?

 

[hawk1911]

3.2 Passenger requirements
■ Later last trains of the day to improve journey opportunities

Where? Have I missed something?

 

[Suraggu]

As above there is going to be a 2201 on Fridays run by VTEC hopefully if that is successful and that the 2130 is successful that might see an extension so that it runs throughout the week. Of course the issue is that once you get to Newcastle you can't really get anywhere else by National Rail!



That could certainly work I suppose but it would still seem strange to basically cut the HST network off from Craigentinny apart from one service per day.



Yes that's a good point we're going on about just moving them to Heaton but does Heaton have sufficent spare capacity to deal with it! Will they still have as many VTEC sets to deal with once the SETs are introduced?

Yes they will still be servicing VTEC SET's.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where? Have I missed something?

2130 from Edinburgh to Newcastle is one.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting, they can't surely be proposing to undertake a load of ECS moves as it just wouldn't make any sense. Rather than all but one of the northbounds terminating at Newcastle they'd all run on to Edinburgh and that one that does wouldn't come straight back again. Unless that 2130 is the fifth set coming off the depot to go to Newcastle for service the next day?

It just doesn't make sense unless they move maintenance to Heaton.

All well I'm sure all will become clear!

Stable/fuel/light repair at Heaton - Heavy work at Craigentinny? Don't NR do something similar with the NMT?

 

[Failed Unit]

Nice bunch of trains early doors.

0536 XC
0540 East coast. (Assume it passes XC at Dunbar)
0548 East coast.

Lots of competition for early morning traffic, who should I choose, the on with refreshments.

 

[Segedunum]

I quite like the idea of the 0539 Newcastle to Plymouth, gives a much better direct service to Leeds in the early morning on weekdays (TPE are introducing an 0533) and of course allowing for an earlier arrival into Sheffield, Birmingham etc on a direct service. Even better that it's an HST.

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk

 

[brompton rail]

I quite like the idea of the 0539 Newcastle to Plymouth, gives a much better direct service to Leeds in the early morning on weekdays (TPE are introducing an 0533) and of course allowing for an earlier arrival into Sheffield, Birmingham etc on a direct service. Even better that it's an HST.

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk

Currently 0525 (VTEC) from Newcastle and change at YORK on 06.40 from YORK.

 

[Segedunum]

Currently 0525 (VTEC) from Newcastle and change at YORK on 06.40 from YORK.

Yeah but for the sake of convenience and an extra 15 minutes in bed in the morning? I did refer to a direct service.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Frothy]

Something that struck me was the last through train from Leeds to Edinburgh would be at 1838 instead of 2008 currently.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[tbtc]

Everyone else has already said what I would was going to, but I too am pretty impressed by this, it's certainly a lot more thorough than what I thought would happen given the relatively uninspiring Direct Award. Getting half hourly to Exeter is an absolute blinder, as are the additional morning Reading-Bournemouth and various peak hour Yorkshire services. Bromsgrove being caped is understandable, as are Bath and Guildford. Interesting to note the one cut to a Glasgow as I would have thought they'd be under SLC what with them replacing East Coast, but it's a minor detail. Good job all round.

There's the 0601 Reading starter currently, and pre-recast back in 2008 I'm certain one of the last trains south from Newcastle terminated there too.

Good points - and, yes, I'd forgotten about the early service from Sheffield!

The biggest improvement is clearly the use of more HSTs through the middle of the week. Clearly whatever disincentive to do so previously has been eliminated even if this might have been a firm nudge from the DfT. Equally it could be that having geared up for GC HSTs (as well as the NMT) Heaton is now a more realistic maintenance base for them. The rest looks like classic British Rail; pruning extremities as much as politically acceptable while adjusting core operation to fit in with changes in other service groups/TOCs while also optimising diagrams based on passenger loading surveys. It won't be perfect but it seems someone is at least trying.

Typically insightful stuff.

I wonder why the still go to Aberdeen? Politics?

Even now the Aberdeen service follows an east coast very closely so Aberdeen - York is duplicated within 30 minutes. I know people will like to do direct trains but I am sure Aberdeen - Birmingham business is all via west coast changing haymarket.

Does enough demand really exist at Derby, Sheffield etc to keep the through train?

The answer could be yes. Don't know. Just asking the question.

I don't know re Aberdeen.

The oil market can mean some heaving trains of people heading south, but I don't know how many go all the way to the Midlands etc.

As a Scot living in Sheffield, I wouldn't be too upset if the through link were cut - but at least XC are now running it using an off-peak Voyager I suppose.

So you'd have to assume they already have DfT's tacit agreement to removal of Guildford. Without the continuous route retention advantage of running the ECS to and from Guildford via Havant and Fareham; perhaps we'll also see the end of XC diversions the long way round when the Basingstoke route is closed?

Hmm... reading your words reminded me of the frustrated sounding line in the document about how hard it has been to enhance weekend services because of the extra resources needed to deal with diversions...

"Our ability to increase services at weekends (and in summer months) is limited and our national network of services leaves us badly affected by engineering possessions which further impede the effective use of resources"

...could that be read (in light of your comment) as XC preferring to cap services instead of maintaining diversionary routes?

I meant to comment on this last time, but know from some delayed Sundays how easily XC can get messed up (fairly often the service from Newcastle to Birmingham takes half an hour longer, even if only a minor diversion, to ensure that they retain the correct paths north and south of the diverted section - which uses up an extra unit or two just to maintain the same frequency).

Could this be interpreted as a nod that they don't intend to run via diversionary routes quite so much in future (e.g. via Guildford)? Or am I overanalysing things too much from my armchair

A few observations having read the document in detail...

It seems that they are planning on having...
26 out of 29 170's in service...
35 out of 38 220/1(4car)...
18 out of 20 221(5car)...
4 out of 5 HSTs...
in service every weekday...

It seems pretty heroic for the Turbostar and Voyager fleets and means that the current Friday strengthening on a handful of workings looks to be a thing of the past...

3 x 170s (excluding the standby/1739 Derby) do nothing outside the peaks...

A 220(4car) sits at Plymouth from 1048 to 1625...

A 220(4car) does nothing in between the am/pm peak hour Derby-Leeds-Derby train...

The new northbound Aberdeen service is 45/50 minutes behind an East Coast Aberdeen service from Leeds to Aberdeen...

The new southbound Aberdeen service is 30 minutes behind an East Coast Aberdeen service from Aberdeen to York...

The 1730 off Birmingham to Cardiff is reduced to a 2 car...

First evening off peak train evening train (1822) from Birmingham to Leicester (and Stansted) is reduced to a 2 car...

There's 1 less 3 car on the Nottingham-Cardiff route as it will be used for peak hour only Leicester strengthening...

Possible Gloucester calls on the Exeter/Manchester service if they can get paths...

Unless I'm being dumb (highly likely) I can't work out whether the new station at Cambridge North will be served by XC...

::doffs hat at your researching::

Something that struck me was the last through train from Leeds to Edinburgh would be at 1838 instead of 2008 currently.

Maybe not long before TPE start running direct services (no guarantee they'll run late in the day, of course)

 

[ainsworth74]

The oil market can mean some heaving trains of people heading south, but I don't know how many go all the way to the Midlands etc.

Dunno about the Midlands but there will probably be a decent flow into/out of the North East as there are lots that work offshore and live in the area. There's a reason why one of Teesside Airports two year round links one of them is Aberdeen.

I must admit on the whole I do think this is going to be a good thing for the route and will go a long way to seeing us through to the next full franchise when hopefully more stock will be ordered or sourced. I am certainly a lot happier now that this has been announced than I was when it was just the Direct Award!

 

[Failed Unit]

Dunno about the Midlands but there will probably be a decent flow into/out of the North East as there are lots that work offshore and live in the area. There's a reason why one of Teesside Airports two year round links one of them is Aberdeen.

I must admit on the whole I do think this is going to be a good thing for the route and will go a long way to seeing us through to the next full franchise when hopefully more stock will be ordered or sourced. I am certainly a lot happier now that this has been announced than I was when it was just the Direct Award!

The flow to Newcastle is very strong, but east coast is preferred by many for quality. I.e. Catering. xC off nothing north of Edinburgh.

 

[ainsworth74]

The flow to Newcastle is very strong, but east coast is preferred by many for quality. I.e. Catering. xC off nothing north of Edinburgh.

Yeah I figured. Still if XC were to use market based pricing they might be able to coax some passenger on the basis of price. But that's about all they'd have going for them!

 

[Failed Unit]

Yeah I figured. Still if XC were to use market based pricing they might be able to coax some passenger on the basis of price. But that's about all they'd have going for them!

Saying that. Allow alcohol to be consumed they may get a few off the 0955 Aberdeen- London.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Failed Unit]

Highly unlikely with a 1520 departure!!!

Never under estimate how much they want a drink. But will the get anyone off the closer 1455? (Which does allow drink and sell food)

 

[IanXC]

Hmm... reading your words reminded me of the frustrated sounding line in the document about how hard it has been to enhance weekend services because of the extra resources needed to deal with diversions...

"Our ability to increase services at weekends (and in summer months) is limited and our national network of services leaves us badly affected by engineering possessions which further impede the effective use of resources"

...could that be read (in light of your comment) as XC preferring to cap services instead of maintaining diversionary routes?

I meant to comment on this last time, but know from some delayed Sundays how easily XC can get messed up (fairly often the service from Newcastle to Birmingham takes half an hour longer, even if only a minor diversion, to ensure that they retain the correct paths north and south of the diverted section - which uses up an extra unit or two just to maintain the same frequency).

Could this be interpreted as a nod that they don't intend to run via diversionary routes quite so much in future (e.g. via Guildford)? Or am I overanalysing things too much from my armchair

I think this is more about not being able to afford these units trundling down branch lines on Summer weekends, when more stock is required just to operate the standard service due to extended journey times on diversion.

Regarding Aberdeen, there is very little by way of regular, 'commuter' flow beyond Darlington in all reality. And a good number of these passengers are not that time sensitive, as they travel up, stay over night and then fly out to a rig the following day.

 

[30907]

Torbay will probably moan at losing most weekday services, but only one (mid-morning northbound) appears to load at all significantly according to the document

A 220(4car) sits at Plymouth from 1048 to 1625...

If the unit were detached at Exeter or Newton Abbot, it could work to Paignton and allow a late morning Exeter service to start back from Torbay. There would need to be a unit balance down to PLY, which could serve Torbay as well (assuming the 1625 PLY needs 2x220 from the start). Obviously there are staffing costs.

 

[XCTurbostar]

As a commuter of the Birmingham-Leicester Route. I welcome the extra capacity of stopping trains at Narborough, Hinckley, Water Orton. I am disappointed that the 1552 Birmingham-Leicester has been reduced from 3-Coaches to 2-Coaches. I am of the opinion that more XX22 departures from Birmingham and Stansted Aiport departures need to stop at Narborough and Hinckley. This would relax the problems at these stations.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[darloscott]

I think this is more about not being able to afford these units trundling down branch lines on Summer weekends, when more stock is required just to operate the standard service due to extended journey times on diversion.

Regarding Aberdeen, there is very little by way of regular, 'commuter' flow beyond Darlington in all reality. And a good number of these passengers are not that time sensitive, as they travel up, stay over night and then fly out to a rig the following day.

If anything these timings for the Aberdeen services will be far better for offshore workers, a large proportion of which live here in the North East. My dad has been one of them for the last few years. An early afternoon arrival will enable those travelling to arrive at a decent time for their overnight stay prior to departing the next day. On the return, the first wave or two of helicopters will be well timed for a 1520 departure, although whether they will mop up much with the VTEC departure at 1452 in front of it I'm not sure.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Iskra]

All credit to XC for doing something to aid the current situation, it must have taken a lot of effort to come up with this solution. It's quite right IMO that Bath/Guildford/Paignton services are dropped to provide more capacity on the core routes, although no doubt there will be unintended consequences that create problems elsewhere. 2tph Manchester-Exeter is also very good news and should create some cheap advances at certain times too

Of course, a major overhaul is still required in the next franchise.

 

[43074]

The changes are very positive on the whole IMO... the changes in West Yorkshire are very positive, the 09:36 Leeds to Derby presumably offers a faster journey between Leeds & Leicester as well. Bristol to Exeter at 2tph is very positive, and it's good to see the HSTs getting the usage they should be getting given the crowding issues on the network. Nice to see the additional capacity proposed between Birmingham & Leicester, although it's a pity that that has to be at the expense of fewer 3-car workings on the Nottingham - Birmingham - Cardiff route.

Of course, a major overhaul is still required in the next franchise.

Indeed; Given the relatively modest nature of the changes they're consulting on - i.e. it isn't a major timetable re-write unlike the GTR consultation - one wonders how much of this is essentially the DfT conducting market research to help inform the direction XC services will take in the next franchise?

Section 3.8 is also quite interesting... an extensive list of service enhancements by other TOCs in the coming years that will effect XC services - in my mind it is indirectly asking ''what is the role of XC?'', and as it rightly points out - with the changes being implemented over the coming years now is the obvious time to be asking that.

 

[Kettledrum]

it's good to see the HSTs getting the usage they should be getting given the crowding issues on the network. Nice to see the additional capacity proposed between Birmingham & Leicester, although it's a pity that that has to be at the expense of fewer 3-car workings on the Nottingham - Birmingham - Cardiff route.

The neglect of the Nottingham - Birmingham - Cardiff route is disgraceful. In peak periods the 3 car trains are jam packed with many standing into and out of Birmingham, so reducing them to two cars is a very bad suggestion.

It also goes against the recent West Midlands and Chiltern route consultation that highlighted the need for lots more seats into Birmingham on this axis - as well as the Leicester route.

Perhaps there could be additional stops at Tamworth and Burton on Trent from some of the HST and other though services that do not currently stop there.

(Yes - I know that's not ideal as these trains are very full too, but according to the current West Midlands and Chiltern route consultation,the Birmingham to Burton-on-Trent commuter flow is one of the most over-crowded into Birmingham. What a shame, it's just been made worse by XC's timetable suggestions)