Unfair Penalty Fare Notice.

[pippington]

I was on my way into Erith Station a couple of days ago and I put my Oystercard on the reader and heard it beep in the usual manner. I have done this thousands of times and if the beep had sounded odd I would have noticed. There was no barrier. I did not look at the screen on the reader machine.
I was travelling with a friend, who entered the station just after me. He also heard the reader beep my Oystercard. We got on the train.
A ticket inspector appeared and when he scanned my Oystercard he told me that I had not "touched in". My friend immediately said "Yes he did. I was right behind him and I heard it beep".
This had no effect on the ticket inspector. I was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice. How is this possible?
My friend used a credit card for his fare. He had no problems.
I used my Oystercard twice more on my journey without problems.
It appears that I am to be fined £20 for what appears to me to be a technical fault with the Oystercard system.
Can anyone offer my any useful advice in appealing against this fine? Does having a witness effect the likelihood of my having to pay it?
Thanks for any help.

 

[najaB]

My friend used a credit card for his fare. He had no problems.
I used my Oystercard twice more on my journey without problems.
It appears that I am to be fined £20 for what appears to me to be a technical fault with the Oystercard system.
Can anyone offer my any useful advice in appealing against this fine? Does having a witness effect the likelihood of my having to pay it?
Thanks for any help.

I can't help you with an appeal, but just wanted to point out that the fact that your friend's contactless payment card (CPC) was accepted has little bearing on your Oyster difficulties. CPCs don't store any record of if they've been tapped in or not.

 

[MikeWh]

I was on my way into Erith Station a couple of days ago and I put my Oystercard on the reader and heard it beep in the usual manner. I have done this thousands of times and if the beep had sounded odd I would have noticed. There was no barrier. I did not look at the screen on the reader machine.
I was travelling with a friend, who entered the station just after me. He also heard the reader beep my Oystercard. We got on the train.
A ticket inspector appeared and when he scanned my Oystercard he told me that I had not "touched in". My friend immediately said "Yes he did. I was right behind him and I heard it beep".
This had no effect on the ticket inspector. I was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice. How is this possible?
My friend used a credit card for his fare. He had no problems.
I used my Oystercard twice more on my journey without problems.
It appears that I am to be fined £20 for what appears to me to be a technical fault with the Oystercard system.
Can anyone offer my any useful advice in appealing against this fine? Does having a witness effect the likelihood of my having to pay it?
Thanks for any help.

Have you looked at your journey history online? If your card isn't linked to a TfL account then you'll need to call the Oyster helpline and request a statement. If you can post the details we might then be able to help further. Likewise, has your friend looked at his history? Contactless works differently to Oyster with the RPI readers, but that doesn't mean he hasn't also got a problem. Try and get his details too. If the system shows neither or you touched in at Erith then there may be a problem. Until I can see what the system says it's difficult to advise further.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I want to strongly endorse MikeWh's advice to clarify what events are recorded on your Oyster card's data; I just want to add a sense of urgency to this, as the memory capacity on those cards is so small, that any further use of the card will quickly push the details of your disputed incident off the record.

If the card shows that you touched in as you describe it, then you have adequate evidence to challenge the PF. What is more concerning is that the data on the card will tell the same tale of your travel history that it revealled to the Inspector when (s)he examined it with their reader on the day of travel (i.e. that there is no 'touch in' recorded). If that is what the card reveals, then its going to be a struggle to persuade anyone otherwise - and while I know that is not what you want to hear right now, it might help you to put that struggle in an appropriate perspective before you start spending time and money on a dispute with a slow and cumbersome corporate entity.

Hope this helps.

 

[MikeWh]

I want to strongly endorse MikeWh's advice to clarify what events are recorded on your Oyster card's data; I just want to add a sense of urgency to this, as the memory capacity on those cards is so small, that any further use of the card will quickly push the details of your disputed incident off the record.

Thank you Dave. I was actually suggesting the data on the Oyster Central System, but if the journey in question is within the last 6 or 7 made with the card then a card printout may well be useful. The fact that it was used twice more on the journey suggests that a typical journey occupies more than one of the 8 slots on the card, so it's less likely that the relevant history still exists. There is also the problem that printouts are now very hard to get as Underground stations no longer have ticket offices. A photo of the screen of a ticket machine is probably the best you can get in most places.

However, the Oyster Central System data should confirm what we are dealing with, especially if there are details of two different cards on the same reader.

 

[pippington]

Thanks for your help, those who wrote.

I went to my Oyster page online and saw that the card was not in any way registered at Erith Station. The system failed to record the touch-in up.

Given that I have a witness who heard my card beep should I contest the fine, or would the sensible thing be to pay it (and thereby accept the unjust accusation of criminality)?

 

[221129]

Thanks for your help, those who wrote.

I went to my Oyster page online and saw that the card was not in any way registered at Erith Station. The system failed to record the touch-in up.

Given that I have a witness who heard my card beep should I contest the fine, or would the sensible thing be to pay it (and thereby accept the unjust accusation of criminality)?

A Penalty Fare is not a fine. I would personally pay it to stop it escalating, and then try and appeal or recover it afterwards.

 

[Puffing Devil]

A Penalty Fare is not a fine. I would personally pay it to stop it escalating, and then try and appeal or recover it afterwards.

Indeed. No matter how unfair you feel this is, and it may well be, paying £20 will prevent an expensive escalation through the court process.

It will help your appeal case if you can show a substantive journey history where you have touched in at this station.

 

[gray1404]

1. Pay the £20 asap to stop this becoming more expensive!
2. Are you sure your friend heard the touch in confirmation? Maybe it was actually a red light and rejection sound.
3. You can still appeal after you have paid the £20. Although we need to find a ground on which to appeal.
4. You can also complain to customer services as they may (or may not) offer a goodwill gesture.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thanks for your help, those who wrote.

I went to my Oyster page online and saw that the card was not in any way registered at Erith Station. The system failed to record the touch-in up.

Given that I have a witness who heard my card beep should I contest the fine, or would the sensible thing be to pay it (and thereby accept the unjust accusation of criminality)?

I would suggest paying the PF as a matter of urgency and then go through the appeals service.

Hearing the card beeb probably won't be substantial evidence - I normally check the display on the reader too

There is no unjust accusation of criminality (although I appreciate you will see it as unjust)

Please pay the PF (to get it out the way), otherwise the situation could escalate out of control and incur further costs

 

[najaB]

...would the sensible thing be to pay it (and thereby accept the unjust accusation of criminality)?

There's no accusation associated with a Penalty Fare. You were issued it because there was no record of your tap in - a matter of fact, not opinion. You should pay it to stop the issue escalating and then attempt to recoup it via Customer Services.

 

[talldave]

Using Contactless would appear to be the best way forward, to avoid this happening again?

 

[cuccir]

It is up to the OP whether or not they pay. However, if the OP choses not to pay, there seem to be three possible outcomes:

1. Southeastern at some point realise that there was a problem at Erith, or they otherwise decide to show the benefit of the doubt

2. Southeastern continue to increase the penalty fare and pippington, intimidated, pays the higher amount

3. Southeastern continue to increase the penalty fare and pippington continues to not pay. Southeastern then move to prosecute under the railway Bylaws for not having a ticket. Pippington either agrees to an out of court settlement, or is prosecuted and pays a fine. Both of these would be near to or in the hundreds of pounds.

As we all know here, the railway Bylaws are strict liability; that is, they allow for a prosecution for not having the correct ticket, irrespective of intent. In other words, it is (effectively) illegal to attempt to tap into a machine, for it to not work, for you to not notice, and for you to then travel. I'm not saying that's fair: but that is fundamentally the law.

So how much risk can the OP tolerate in order to save £20 and to stick to a principle? I personally would not be able to tolerate that much risk for that saving.

 

[jon0844]

After having the normal beep accompany what was in fact an error on a standalone validator at Finsbury Park that, with no gate, had nothing to stop me if I didn't look at the display, I now always double check.

But what does the validator record, and how can it beep as normal when there was an error? Is there a log? Can you perhaps get info for an appeal by proving, or at least casting doubt about, an issue with the hardware? As long as you know the reader and the time, you might have a chance?

I would consider paying and then trying to resolve after, as this could take longer and require an element of goodwill.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for your help, those who wrote.

I went to my Oyster page online and saw that the card was not in any way registered at Erith Station. The system failed to record the touch-in up.

Given that I have a witness who heard my card beep should I contest the fine, or would the sensible thing be to pay it (and thereby accept the unjust accusation of criminality)?

I would echo the advice of others to pay the penalty fare to avoid it escalating. Have you asked your friend if his card registered at Erith? If it did then I would say you have little cause for appeal and should learn the life lesson that it's a good idea to check what the display says when touching in at validators (and also at locked open gates).

If your friend's card didn't register at Erith then you have reason to follow it further. You'll need to contact TfL and ask about any faults with the equipment at Erith. Depending on their response you may then have grounds to appeal to Southeastern.

Finally, if you are using adult pay-as-you-go then I would definitely recommend using contactless if you have a card. Single fares are the same, capping is at worst the same, but can sometimes be cheaper, and revenue checks do not show up at the time of checking - it's a retrospective charge once all the touches have appeared on the central system.

 

[gray1404]

Could the OP not contact TfL and ask about any faults with the equipment at Erith anyway.

 

[MikeWh]

Could the OP not contact TfL and ask about any faults with the equipment at Erith anyway.

Yes they could, but if they know there are at least two cards with a problem it makes it more likely that there may be an issue. If their friend's card worked properly then I'd be inclined to put it down to experience.

 

[ComUtoR]

A similar thing happened to me. I touched in and the gate opened to let me through. Got out at my destination station and it wouldn't let me out.

The assistant came over and told me I didn't have any money on my Oyster. I explained I had tapped in successfully etc so he check my history on the reader. Turns out, I hadn't even tapped in ! I topped up and he gave me a little bit of advice and a warning.

Firstly he said watch out for the gates especially as you can tap the reader and the gates are still open for the previous person. You don't register as tapped in but the gates open up. He also suggested that when I tap to always read what it says as your going through and hearing the beeps etc but they could be the person next to you or you miss what it says.

His warning..

If I had been stopped by an Inspector then I would have got a Penalty Fare as it shows I didn't tap in. It looks like I'd dodging even though it was totally genuine.

I chalked it up to human error and thanks him for his advice. I would urge you to do the same.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Any mileage in the OP making a Subject Access Request under the DPA for CCTV footage which would show that they attempted to touch in?

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/

 

[221129]

Any mileage in the OP making a Subject Access Request under the DPA for CCTV footage which would show that they attempted to touch in?

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/

No...

 

[JN114]

Any mileage in the OP making a Subject Access Request under the DPA for CCTV footage which would show that they attempted to touch in?

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/

I've never seen any mileage in CCTV being used in any but the most extreme cases. Recorded data is generally overwritten within 2-4 weeks, and specifically to this case is unlikely to be high enough resolution to show what the oyster reader said, making it a pointless waste of time and money.

 

[pippington]

1. Pay the £20 asap to stop this becoming more expensive!
2. Are you sure your friend heard the touch in confirmation? Maybe it was actually a red light and rejection sound.
3. You can still appeal after you have paid the £20. Although we need to find a ground on which to appeal.
4. You can also complain to customer services as they may (or may not) offer a goodwill gesture.

Point (2): This is the tricky one. Neither of us was looking at the screen of the card reading machine. Maybe there was a red light. However, the sound was a normal beep sound. We would definitely have noticed warning beeps. We have used oyster machines thousands of times.
I am inclined to follow your (4).

 

[pippington]

I would suggest paying the PF as a matter of urgency and then go through the appeals service.

Hearing the card beeb probably won't be substantial evidence - I normally check the display on the reader too

There is no unjust accusation of criminality (although I appreciate you will see it as unjust)

Please pay the PF (to get it out the way), otherwise the situation could escalate out of control and incur further costs

Sensible advice. Thank you.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If you use contactless, and you get wrongly charged, you also have the option of phoning your bank and getting a refund and TfL having a chargeback. Saves all the hassle.

 

[MikeWh]

If you use contactless, and you get wrongly charged, you also have the option of phoning your bank and getting a refund and TfL having a chargeback. Saves all the hassle.

Except your card will undoubtedly be blacklisted from that point onwards.

 

[island]

Except your card will undoubtedly be blacklisted from that point onwards.

In practice probably not. Most banks will write off card disputes of under ten or twenty quid as not cost effective to investigate and just give the customer the refund from operating expenses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To the OP: as the evidence shows that your Oyster card was not recorded as touched-in, you have committed the offence of joining a train without a valid ticket and you therefore have no defence I'm afraid. You need to pay the balance of the penalty fare within the allotted time and chalk it up to experience.

 

[najaB]

In practice probably not. Most banks will write off card disputes of under ten or twenty quid as not cost effective to investigate and just give the customer the refund from operating expenses.

How much is a TfL maximum fare?

 

[island]

£8 or thereabouts is the failed inspection fare. MikeWh can give the precise amount.

 

[jax4154]

how much is a tfl maximum fare?

£8.90

 

[pippington]

This sickens me. I paid the fine.
That is to say, I have decided not to spend hours arguing online or in court, or both, with a giant, unfeeling coorporation. I just don't have the time or the energy - neither do I have confidence in the system being fair.

I have been officially ripped off.

Lesson learned:
Oyster is broken. My advice to anyone reading here - use it at your peril.

Would someone care to write about the pros and cons of using contactless cards rather then Oyster?

Thanks all for your help with this.