Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[yorksrob]

first train north off Barrow today totally caped.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y13082/2016/11/10/advanced

i've been trying to keep an eye on the performance of these Cl 37 LHCS, and i must say, I do wonder if they are a blessing or curse.

Much as I would like to see them as a stop-gap success, it seems hardly a week goes by without at least one of the first workings off Barrow or Carlisle failing completely or arriving well beyond RT.

These trains are, presumably, crucial for both Sellafield workers and commuters to Carlisle, Barrow and even Ulverston/Preston, and regular failures must be very damaging to rail's attractiveness.

Plus, given the awfully tight turnround time in Carlisle for the first northbound working, there is an inevitable knock on effect on the first full south bound working in what you might call 'leisure time' - the 08.42 ex-Carlisle.

When they operate to time, I'm sure the locals appreciate the ambience of the Mk IIs, but given the regular failures, I wonder what feeling on the ground is like after 18 months or so of operation?

As I've mentioned on another thread, I must have travelled the route about eight or nine occasions over the past three years. During that time I've experienced four cancellations, not one of which was on a service booked as loco hauled.

To me this suggests that their staffing issues need to be sorted out as a matter of urgency.

 

[47802]

first train north off Barrow today totally caped.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y13082/2016/11/10/advanced

i've been trying to keep an eye on the performance of these Cl 37 LHCS, and i must say, I do wonder if they are a blessing or curse.

Much as I would like to see them as a stop-gap success, it seems hardly a week goes by without at least one of the first workings off Barrow or Carlisle failing completely or arriving well beyond RT.

These trains are, presumably, crucial for both Sellafield workers and commuters to Carlisle, Barrow and even Ulverston/Preston, and regular failures must be very damaging to rail's attractiveness.

Plus, given the awfully tight turnround time in Carlisle for the first northbound working, there is an inevitable knock on effect on the first full south bound working in what you might call 'leisure time' - the 08.42 ex-Carlisle.

When they operate to time, I'm sure the locals appreciate the ambience of the Mk IIs, but given the regular failures, I wonder what feeling on the ground is like after 18 months or so of operation?

Indeed if the service becomes too unreliable then regular customers will make alternative arrangements. If your a commuter you just want your train to turn up and get you to work on time, and probably don't give a monkeys about the ambience.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed if the service becomes too unreliable then regular customers will make alternative arrangements. If your a commuter you just want your train to turn up and get you to work on time, and probably don't give a monkeys about the ambience.

But even the newest train in the world won't operate without the people to staff it.

 

[47802]

But even the newest train in the world won't operate without the people to staff it.

Indeed but if your claiming its all due to staffing when there have been many cancellations and delay due to problems with either the Loco or the Train.

I suspect if you did some analysis you would find that reliability was substancially below that of a Northern 156.

 

[yorksrob]

So your claiming its all due to staffing when there have been many cancellations and delay due to problems with either the Loco or the Train.

Merely relaying my own experience.

Perhaps I'm astonishingly lucky with loco hauled trains whilst being astonishingly unlucky with 156's, but it's the truth I'm afraid. I therefore remain sceptical that the lions share of the routes (I assume) woeful punctuality record will be anything like mainly due to loco hauled trains.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Merely relaying my own experience.

Perhaps I'm astonishingly lucky with loco hauled trains whilst being astonishingly unlucky with 156's, but it's the truth I'm afraid. I therefore remain sceptical that the lions share of the routes (I assume) woeful punctuality record will be anything like mainly due to loco hauled trains.

I don't have the statistics.

With the various single line sections, delays by loco-hauled services will impact upon unit operated services, and vice versa. Getting down to the nitty gritty of which type of train first caused the problem, and how subsequent regulation of trains over the single lines sections, worsened or bettered the performance of each individual train I guess will never be known. Prioritise the late running loco hauled service and it may catch up on its own timings but delay others. Prioritise the on time unit operated service and the loco hauled gets later and later at each passing point.

Unless someone internal to Northern is attributing those delay minutes within the TOC (opposed to those caused externally which can be claimed against), and they are wiling to divulge such data, I suspect we will never know which is actually 'more reliable'.

 

[37038]

Don't know if previously mentioned but there's going to be a 6 month trial of a thunderbudgie loco at Workington. 3 men trained and DRS will cover the standby in the afternoon.

With a spare set on hand and the ability to work the preston set through to Carlisle, this should help matters a tad

 

[47802]

Don't know if previously mentioned but there's going to be a 6 month trial of a thunderbudgie loco at Workington. 3 men trained and DRS will cover the standby in the afternoon.

With a spare set on hand and the ability to work the preston set through to Carlisle, this should help matters a tad

Indeed although that just adds more cost to what must already be an expensive operation compared to a Northern unit only railway.

Ultimately it might have been better to look at operating these trains with 68's assuming there is no restriction on these on the Cumbrian Coast, even if that was initially going to be a higher cost, obviously its a bit late for that now since you would need to change the DBSO's to AAR.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.. If your a commuter you just want your train to turn up and get you to work on time, and probably don't give a monkeys about the ambience.

I'm not sure that is accurate at all. There were several positive reports mentioned (up this very thread, I think) about the locals very much welcoming the 'new trains' last year, along with their greater capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I've mentioned on another thread, I must have travelled the route about eight or nine occasions over the past three years. During that time I've experienced four cancellations, not one of which was on a service booked as loco hauled.

To me this suggests that their staffing issues need to be sorted out as a matter of urgency.

I can't pretend my surveys of operations have been statistically sound - I don't check every working every day - far from it - and there is a bias, because if i check anything, i check the first two trains - both diagrammed for 37s.

But delays on RTT put down to crew issues are not at all common, IMX.

And yes, the DMUs also fail sometimes, but again, I would say much less frequently. Sadly, it seems delays are all to often down to "problems with traction equipment" (or something like that).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Merely relaying my own experience.

Perhaps I'm astonishingly lucky with loco hauled trains whilst being astonishingly unlucky with 156's, but it's the truth I'm afraid. I therefore remain sceptical that the lions share of the routes (I assume) woeful punctuality record will be anything like mainly due to loco hauled trains.

Difficult to say if the entire service is "woeful" or not overall. But I would say these first two trains in particular, which i assume are crucial for the line's commuter potential, do not exactly appear as reliable.

I quite often check the Cambrian Coast line too (just my quirky nature) - and must say that that seems much, much more reliable overall.

 

[47802]

I'm not sure that is accurate at all. There were several positive reports mentioned (up this very thread, I think) about the locals very much welcoming the 'new trains' last year, along with their greater capacity.

Well they might of liked the greater capacity and some way yes an old intercity coaches might be seen as more comfortable, but have you ever been a train commuter on an unreliable service, it drives you up the wall, at the end of the working day you just want your train to do what it says on the tin ie turn-up on time, get on and get home, and do that 5 days a week 52 weeks a year, not turn up 1 day and break down the next, and unless I was making a long distance commute, I couldn't give a monkeys whether its an HST or Railbus that turns up as long as it turns up.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Well they might of liked the greater capacity and some way yes an old intercity coaches might be seen as more comfortable, but have you ever been a train commuter on an unreliable service, it drives you up the wall, at the end of the working day you just want your train to do what it says on the tin ie turn-up on time, get on and get home, and do that 5 days a week 52 weeks a year, not turn up 1 day and break down the next, and unless I was making a long distance commute, I couldn't give a monkeys whether its an HST or Railbus that turns up as long as it turns up.

If you read my earlier post today, this is what I was (more or less) saying. but you largely wrote off the improved ambience/capacity of the LHCS trains. I was merely seeking to point out there is evidence that that is not an insignificant feature of the LHCS.

 

[37038]

Indeed although that just adds more cost to what must already be an expensive operation compared to a Northern unit only railway.

Ultimately it might have been better to look at operating these trains with 68's assuming there is no restriction on these on the Cumbrian Coast, even if that was initially going to be a higher cost, obviously its a bit late for that now since you would need to change the DBSO's to AAR.

Route cleared with restrictions of Bridges 147 and 151 on the route between Carnforth and Carlisle.
Stock is fitted for blue star as far as I know and DBSOs have 37 style desks. Plus Northern drivers are only trained on 37/4s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

My question would be, is the type of service the class 37s are currently operating on the Cumbrian Coast the main cause of the failures i.e. stop-start running which involves lots of thrashing followed by smart braking, tight turnarounds (as mentioned above) and possibly some of the trackwork on the coast route has seen better days therefore causing a rougher ride with more shocks and vibrations transmitted through to the various components? If for example these same trains were operating on the S&C services would the reliability be somewhat superior with some of the above mentioned strains and stresses removed?

 

[47802]

My question would be, is the type of service the class 37s are currently operating on the Cumbrian Coast the main cause of the failures i.e. stop-start running which involves lots of thrashing followed by smart braking, tight turnarounds (as mentioned above) and possibly some of the trackwork on the coast route has seen better days therefore causing a rougher ride with more shocks and vibrations transmitted through to the various components? If for example these same trains were operating on the S&C services would the reliability be somewhat superior with some of the above mentioned strains and stresses removed?

Would that actually be any better though most services on the S&C are fairly start stop.

 

[PHILIPE]

My question would be, is the type of service the class 37s are currently operating on the Cumbrian Coast the main cause of the failures i.e. stop-start running which involves lots of thrashing followed by smart braking, tight turnarounds (as mentioned above) and possibly some of the trackwork on the coast route has seen better days therefore causing a rougher ride with more shocks and vibrations transmitted through to the various components? If for example these same trains were operating on the S&C services would the reliability be somewhat superior with some of the above mentioned strains and stresses removed?

Remember they are old now !!!

 

[yorksrob]

I can't pretend my surveys of operations have been statistically sound - I don't check every working every day - far from it - and there is a bias, because if i check anything, i check the first two trains - both diagrammed for 37s.

But delays on RTT put down to crew issues are not at all common, IMX.

And yes, the DMUs also fail sometimes, but again, I would say much less frequently. Sadly, it seems delays are all to often down to "problems with traction equipment" (or something like that).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Difficult to say if the entire service is "woeful" or not overall. But I would say these first two trains in particular, which i assume are crucial for the line's commuter potential, do not exactly appear as reliable.

I quite often check the Cambrian Coast line too (just my quirky nature) - and must say that that seems much, much more reliable overall.

Two out of the four services I've missed, they've sailed on by, which suggests a staffing issue, rather than a technical one.

I don't know about the morning Northbound service but the service timed to go South from Whitehaven at around half past four on Saturday afternoon is abysmal in my experience.

 

[37038]

I can't pretend my surveys of operations have been statistically sound - I don't check every working every day - far from it - and there is a bias, because if i check anything, i check the first two trains - both diagrammed for 37s.

But delays on RTT put down to crew issues are not at all common, IMX.

And yes, the DMUs also fail sometimes, but again, I would say much less frequently. Sadly, it seems delays are all to often down to "problems with traction equipment" (or something like that).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Difficult to say if the entire service is "woeful" or not overall. But I would say these first two trains in particular, which i assume are crucial for the line's commuter potential, do not exactly appear as reliable.

Yes but RTTs failure/cancellation reasoning isn't accurate at all. It's just whatever information. Genius incident delays show this up when I have a look on the odd occasion. 37s fail occasionally but the stock is the more common cause of failure. And on top of this no one explodes with indignation when the other MUs often fail on the coast.

My question would be, is the type of service the class 37s are currently operating on the Cumbrian Coast the main cause of the failures i.e. stop-start running which involves lots of thrashing followed by smart braking, tight turnarounds (as mentioned above) and possibly some of the trackwork on the coast route has seen better days therefore causing a rougher ride with more shocks and vibrations transmitted through to the various components? If for example these same trains were operating on the S&C services would the reliability be somewhat superior with some of the above mentioned strains and stresses removed?

Locos fail for various reasons, the first points can be generally fixed with a good exam schedule. Track on the coast is a mix of CWR and flat bottomed jointed but all reasonable. Not treated as the a*se end of nowhere.
They'll be running for a few years to come and DRS are already looking forward. Retention bogs already fitted to most, wifi throughout to come and a DDA bog in the DBSOs as well

 

[themiller]

Track on the coast is a mix of CWR and flat bottomed jointed but all reasonable. Not treated as the a*se end of nowhere.

Some bullhead is still in existence on the line such as through Ravenglass down platform.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Two out of the four services I've missed, they've sailed on by, which suggests a staffing issue, rather than a technical one.

..

Why does it suggest a staffing issue? (serious question) Perhaps they were trying to regain time by omitting stops? Or do you mean they had no guard, and were empty?

 

[yorksrob]

Why does it suggest a staffing issue? (serious question) Perhaps they were trying to regain time by omitting stops? Or do you mean they had no guard, and were empty?

On one occasion at St Bees I think the signalman mentioned the reason when telling me it was cancelled. On another occasion when waiting at Corcicle the train appeared empty when it went through.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes but RTTs failure/cancellation reasoning isn't accurate at all. It's just whatever information. Genius incident delays show this up when I have a look on the odd occasion.

Well, RTT also states quite often: "Cause unknown" or some such.

37s fail occasionally but the stock is the more common cause of failure. And on top of this no one explodes with indignation when the other MUs often fail on the coast.

Who has indicated anyone "explodes with indignation" in recent posts?

What i have written is clear enough, I'd think, namely, from fairly frequent checks on RTT, it seems to me that one of the first up and down workings, along with the 08.32 up ex-Carlisle, are caped or are seriously delayed on average about once per week.

I'd wager it is true that many folk, if they got up early (say, 05.00 or 05.30) to catch one of these trains to commute to work, might indeed 'explode with indignation' and return to driving if the train failed for the third time in a month - I would certainly understand that reaction.

And it is also my impression (from the same RTT source) that the DMUs simply do not fail so often. Nothing like, in fact. If you want to contest this, let's look at the statistics. I have not taken note of them - i don't have time to check every day. But I'm open to change my mind if you can show evidence to the contrary.

Until then, I'd say the LHCS trains with 37s are under performing, and by some way (for whatever reason), and are likely to be an impediment to passenger growth on the route.

Locos fail for various reasons, the first points can be generally fixed with a good exam schedule. Track on the coast is a mix of CWR and flat bottomed jointed but all reasonable. Not treated as the a*se end of nowhere.
They'll be running for a few years to come and DRS are already looking forward. Retention bogs already fitted to most, wifi throughout to come and a DDA bog in the DBSOs as well

DRS are looking forward? Good - because they need to. I hope they succeed in running these first three services without any failures in a month. It will certainly be a massive improvement compared to recent months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On one occasion at St Bees I think the signalman mentioned the reason when telling me it was cancelled. On another occasion when waiting at Corcicle the train appeared empty when it went through.

isn't Corcickle a request stop? Are you sure you didn't forget to stick your hand out ?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, RTT also states quite often: "Cause unknown" or some such.

37s fail occasionally but the stock is the more common cause of failure. And on top of this no one explodes with indignation when the other MUs often fail on the coast.

Who has indicated anyone "explodes with indignation" in recent posts?

What i have written is clear enough, I'd think, namely, from fairly frequent checks on RTT, it seems to me that one of the first up and down workings, along with the 08.32 up ex-Carlisle, are caped or are seriously delayed on average about once per week.

I'd wager it is true that many folk, if they got up early (say, 05.00 or 05.30) to catch one of these trains to commute to work, might indeed 'explode with indignation' and return to driving if the train failed for the third time in a month - I would certainly understand that reaction.

And it is also my impression (from the same RTT source) that the DMUs simply do not fail so often. Nothing like, in fact. If you want to contest this, let's look at the statistics. I have not taken note of them - i don't have time to check every day. But I'm open to change my mind if you can show evidence to the contrary.

Until then, I'd say the LHCS trains with 37s are under performing, and by some way (for whatever reason), and are likely to be an impediment to passenger growth on the route.



DRS are looking forward? Good - because they need to. I hope they succeed in running these first three services without any failures in a month. It will certainly be a massive improvement compared to recent months.


isn't Corcickle a request stop? Are you sure you didn't forget to stick your hand out ?

It is indeed, and I was waving in an exaggerated fashion to ensure that the driver saw me. The driver in turn, was doing what looked like the hand jive, which I assume was a signal to me that he wasn't going to stop.

 

[Cowley]

Well, RTT also states quite often: "Cause unknown" or some such.



It is indeed, and I was waving in an exaggerated fashion to ensure that the driver saw me. The driver in turn, was doing what looked like the hand jive, which I assume was a signal to me that he wasn't going to stop.

He was Jive Talking

 

[yorksrob]

He was Jive Talking

Als, on this occasion he wasn't tellin me lies !

 

[Cowley]

Als, on this occasion he wasn't tellin me lies !

 

[70014IronDuke]

Since posting my comments about a fortnight ago, i've been looking at the first two LHCS trains of the day every day.

My immediate reactions was someone in medium-high places reads this thread - the Cl 37 turns seemed to be spot on for several days. Then - plop - one train cancelled last week (Friday, I think it was).

This week, things seemed to be doing ok again, until ... TODAY - which seems to have been a disaster day, with the first two up and a down train (two of the three trains sprinters, not Cl 37) failing a short way into their runs.
see

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...25/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

If you do use the Cumbrian Coast, avoid Fridays seems to be the message :cry:

 

[sprinterguy]

If you do use the Cumbrian Coast, avoid Fridays seems to be the message :cry:

Surprising, as Fridays have been the main day that I've made use of the Cumbrian Coast since the class 37s started, and yet there isn't one service, be it Sprinter or class 37, that's failed to turn up.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the loco hauled diagrams, has anybody ever investigated the possibility of using the Class 60 locos?

Obviously, it would be unlikely that they would run between Preston and Lancaster on those diagrams, due to the 60mph limit.

 

[sprinterguy]

Obviously, it would be unlikely that they would run between Preston and Lancaster on those diagrams, due to the 60mph limit.

Their lack of train supply and the fact that DRS don't own or operate any would be another great couple of reasons against them, too.

 

[Monty]

Regarding the loco hauled diagrams, has anybody ever investigated the possibility of using the Class 60 locos?

Obviously, it would be unlikely that they would run between Preston and Lancaster on those diagrams, due to the 60mph limit.

Probably not since they have no ETH capability to provide heating to the carriages and DRS who provide the locos and rolling stock do not own any.